Robert Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Your interpretation seems to me to be highly legalistic here. You're going by the "letter of the law" rather than by the spirit of the law. Allow the Holy Spirit to speak through the rest of the Scriptures. And you are the Spirit? I think not! Legalistic? No! You are the one that is searching the Bible to "add" more. You are not content with just resting - you want to make church attendance (worship) a requirement for heaven. That's legalism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 24, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 We keep the Sabbath because of God's creation and God's redemptive act in Jesus Christ. Again, the only legitimate reason is redemptive. God's creation was ruined by the fall and therefore your resting in it makes no sense..... Do you mean it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God commands it to be kept? Are you saying it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God blessed the seventh day and said to remember to keep it holy? Are you going to tell God, "You've commanded us to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but that makes no sense to me, and therefore I'm not going to do that"? Since when do we obey God only when it makes perfect sense to us? Is that real obedience? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The Sabbath/Sunday issue.... NOT AN AUTHORITY. Jack is right on the money: "Even today, when the Sabbath/Sunday issue comes up we tend to make it an issue between Sabbath-keeping Christians, i.e., us, versus Sunday-keeping Christian, i.e., them. But is this the real issue? Let’s be honest: the majority of believers who will make it to heaven will have probably been Sunday keeping Christians, since the change took place about 200 A.D." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 Do you mean it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God commands it to be kept? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 24, 2008 In light of the NT Sabbath keeping becomes the seal of righteousness by faith. If you look at Ex 31:12-17 & Eze 20:12,20, the same seal/sign applied to the OT believers. What better visible sign for believers to have to show the world their allegiance and complete dependence on God for their righteousness than to worship Him on the day He made holy, set apart for holy use, and blessed? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 24, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 We keep the Sabbath because of God's creation and God's redemptive act in Jesus Christ. Again, the only legitimate reason is redemptive. God's creation was ruined by the fall and therefore your resting in it makes no sense..... If God saw a need for the Sabbath for Adam & Eve before they sinned while they could still commune and worship Him face to face, how much more did they need the Sabbath after they sinned and could no longer see Him face to face? If sinless A & E needed a weekly reminder and worship session with their maker, how much more does forgetful sinful man need it? So it makes even MORE sense! There are ex-SDA's who are expending a lot of energy and resources trying to negate the Sabbath while the majority of Americans and probably true of most of the western world as well, suffer from inadequate sleep and rest! That makes NO sense! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 24, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 24, 2008 Quote: JOHN3:17-- Do you mean it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God commands it to be kept? The Fall occurred in this way: God told Adam that he could have the fruit from every tree in the garden except one. God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree, and he said that on the day he ate of it, he would begin to die. Adam and Eve did not understand anything except that God told them not to eat of the tree. They didn't know why God chose that particular tree. Was that "blind obedience"? Did they understand why God picked that one tree out of all the thousands and said they couldn't eat of it? What was the purpose of God's commandment? Did God give the commandment in order to see if Adam and Eve had good comprehension and would agree with His reasoning? Or was the command given in order to test their loyalty to Him? Quote: JOHN317-- Are you saying it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God blessed the seventh day and said to remember to keep it holy? Quote: ROBERT: What does that mean? See...you need to ask questions and not just blindly follow.... Is it obedience, if we wait until we understand everything about God's command and agree with it, before we obey the command? In other words, should we say, "I know God has commanded thus-and-so, but until I understand why he's given this command, and agree that it is reasonable or fair, I refuse to obey it"? Quote: JOHN 3:17--Are you going to tell God, "You've commanded us to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but that makes no sense to me, and therefore I'm not going to do that"? Quote: ROBERT: I want to know the reason! God says, "let us reason together...." Therefore, in eternity, if you know that God has commanded something, you will say, "I want to know the reason," and you will demand to know the reason, before you submit to God's will and obey? So, until you know the reason, and agree with God, you are not going to obey Him? If a parent gives a command to his child, is the child obeying if he won't obey until he understands why the parent has given the command? Quote: JOHN3:17---Since when do we obey God only when it makes perfect sense to us? Is that real obedience? Quote: ROBERT: When you just obey to obey that's legalism. You are afraid of God...it's fear based, which is unbelief! Would Adam and Eve have been practicing "legalism" if they had obeyed God's commandment? If Adam and Eve had obeyed God about not eating from the tree in the garden, would that have been "obeying just to obey"? What were the consequences for everyone of their refusal to obey a command that they did not fully understand? Was it important that they understand why God chose that particular tree? Did God tell them that they first needed to understand why the command was given and that needed to agree with it? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 the WorldNetDaily.com does this so often, they are overstating this as a war to get attention. It is one mans opinion and one person's response... Nothing more than yellow paper journalism with a zillion followers... The would do well, and be so accepted on advent talk. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 What better visible sign for believers to have to show the world their allegiance and complete dependence on God for their righteousness than to worship Him on the day He made holy, set apart for holy use, and blessed? Supposition! You are making church attendance the Savior. More legalism! We should worship God daily. So many Adventists act like a heathen during the week and then on Sabbath put their holy face on. So much hypocrisy and in many ways just like the Jews. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 24, 2008 Share Posted March 24, 2008 If God saw a need for the Sabbath for Adam & Eve before they sinned .... Show me where God gave Adam & Eve the Sabbath! BTW, you have drifted from the context of Ex 20:11....Typical! Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. Chapter 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. I can't find where God gave it to Adam & Eve. Do you see it above? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 25, 2008 Share Posted March 25, 2008 God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree, and he said that on the day he ate of it, he would begin to die. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If God saw a need for the Sabbath for Adam & Eve before they sinned .... Show me where God gave Adam & Eve the Sabbath! BTW, you have drifted from the context of Ex 20:11....Typical! Gen 1:31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. Chapter 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. I can't find where God gave it to Adam & Eve. Do you see it above? "Seek and ye shall find." Jesus. There is none so blind as one who will not see. The same Jesus who created Adam & Eve, said: "The Sabbath was made for MAN!" If the Sabbath was not meant for them and their descendants, for whom did the Creator sanctify and bless it? You talk about context as though Ex 20:8-11 or Gen 2 are somehow totally isolated from the rest of Scripture! While there were many who authored the Bible, let me remind you that there was ONE SPIRIT that inspired it all. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo What better visible sign for believers to have to show the world their allegiance and complete dependence on God for their righteousness than to worship Him on the day He made holy, set apart for holy use, and blessed? Supposition! You are making church attendance the Savior. More legalism! We should worship God daily. So many Adventists act like a heathen during the week and then on Sabbath put their holy face on. So much hypocrisy and in many ways just like the Jews. Hmmmmmm. Did I strike a nerve about church attendance? Check your Bible. Everyone who will be in the kingdom will be there because he/she WORSHIPS God! That's NOT optional! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree, and he said that on the day he ate of it, he would begin to die. This isn't obedience like obeying the law. This was more of a warning....Do you look at everything from the "rule" perspective? Quote: In other words, should we say, "I know God has commanded thus-and-so, but until I understand why he's given this command, and agree that it is reasonable or fair, I refuse to obey it"? You tell me John: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matt 5:48] But seek his kingdom, and these things [context: food & clothing] will be given to you as well. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. [Luke 12:31-33] I'll tell you what you are going to do: You're going to question if this command from Christ means you....Your going to question this command, but you don't want me to question YOUR view of the Sabbath & worship! Two can play this game, John.... Sounds like we're drifting again to Robert's gospel of poverty. Hmmmmmmmm. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 You talk about context as though Ex 20:8-11 or Gen 2 are somehow totally isolated from the rest of Scripture! While there were many who authored the Bible, let me remind you that there was ONE SPIRIT that inspired it all. Gerry But you are not the Spirit and your "connect a dot" doesn't make it with me. Clearly the CONTEXT of Genesis doesn't give us an indication that God made the Sabbath for Adam and Eve. Yes, you can assume this, but using the context you can't prove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Hmmmmmm. Did I strike a nerve about church attendance? Check your Bible. Everyone who will be in the kingdom will be there because he/she WORSHIPS God! That's NOT optional! Gerry "I'm God, worship Me or I'll keep you out of the kingdom". Is this what God would demand or is what Satan demands? God does not have an ego, Gerry. He takes us where we are at. Any response from us is out of a faith appreciation.... Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert This isn't obedience like obeying the law. This was more of a warning....Do you look at everything from the "rule" perspective? Quote: In other words, should we say, "I know God has commanded thus-and-so, but until I understand why he's given this command, and agree that it is reasonable or fair, I refuse to obey it"? You tell me John: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matt 5:48'] But seek his kingdom, and these things [context: food & clothing] will be given to you as well. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. [Luke 12:31-33] I'll tell you what you are going to do: You're going to question if this command from Christ means you....Your going to question this command, but you don't want me to question YOUR view of the Sabbath & worship! Two can play this game, John.... Sounds like we're drifting again to Robert's gospel of poverty. Hmmmmmmmm. Gerry Gerry, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Agape has no self-seeking in it! Self-seeking is the fulfillment of sin. Agape is the fulfillment of the law. You got your wealth through self-love. John stated that I need to take God's commands just as they are....I shouldn't reason - I shouldn't ask questions...I should just obey. Well, don't just obey the Sabbath command - obey all the other commands. That's why Paul, in speaking to the legalists, said: "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree, and he said that on the day he ate of it, he would begin to die. This isn't obedience like obeying the law. This was more of a warning....Do you look at everything from the "rule" perspective? Did God give a command to Adam at that time or not? It was a command, not a "warning" as you claim. Gen. 2: 16, "And the Lord God commanded the man, sayng...." So God "commanded" that Adam and Eve not eat the fruit from a particular tree. Do you see that? It does not say God warned Adam or that God suggested, but God commanded. Adam and Eve disobeyed a direct command of God, did they not? In Genesis 3: 11, God reminds Adam that He did indeed give Adam a "command" not to eat of the tree. Again in Genesis 3: 17, God repeats that He "commanded" Adam not to eat of the tree. Compare Ge. 3: 1 where we are given Satan's decription of God's "command". Satan does not call it a "command" but something that God merely "said." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Gerry, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Allow me to extrapolate on this statement: Job, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. David, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Abraham, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Solomon, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph of Arimathea, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. I have probably missed lots of men whom God blessed here, but you get the message. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Sounds like we're drifting again to Robert's gospel of poverty. Hmmmmmmmm. Gerry Righteousness by indigence? Never heard of that one... God has called us men to work (Genesis 3:17-19; Psalm 90:17; 104:23; Proverbs 18:9; 21:8; i Thess. 4:11). The field of the slothful is paved with thorns. oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert This isn't obedience like obeying the law. This was more of a warning....Do you look at everything from the "rule" perspective? [/quote'] Did God give a command to Adam at that time or not? It was a command, not a "warning" as you claim. Gen. 2: 16, "And the Lord God commanded the man, sayng...." Okay...but God told the man, not Eve. You can assume Adam told Eve, but the context doesn't state that. Again, there are other commands throughout the Bible. I gave you two examples. You reject them and therefore, using your own example, you are ignoring these commands. Why? You question if God really meant what He said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Sounds like we're drifting again to Robert's gospel of poverty. Hmmmmmmmm. Gerry Righteousness by indigence? Never heard of that one... God has called us men to work (Genesis 3:17-19; Psalm 90:17; 104:23; Proverbs 18:9; 21:8; i Thess. 4:11). The field of the slothful is paved with thorns. oG Jesus worked....He eat...He had clothing, but He lived for others. Remember what Paul stated? "If you have food and clothing with this be content." We are selfish.....Hence, even thought there's growth in our lives, technically speaking there is none righteous, not even one! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Gerry, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Allow me to extrapolate on this statement: Job, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. David, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Abraham, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Solomon, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph of Arimathea, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. I have probably missed lots of men whom God blessed here, but you get the message. Graeme God blesses with life and health. Man then take that blessing and use it for their gain.....Yes, all the above were self-seeking in some way. You too! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 Hi Rob. I assume you mean "though." What kind of work do you do? I started a roofing/insulation company 24-years ago. It meets our needs, AND has provided countless opportunities to dispense spiritual blessings. As I look back over the years, a premiere benefit of my work has the way that the Lord has used it to teach me many things about relationships & people. It has also helped me learn to discern character in people. Have a good day, oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo Sounds like we're drifting again to Robert's gospel of poverty. Hmmmmmmmm. Gerry Righteousness by indigence? Never heard of that one... God has called us men to work (Genesis 3:17-19; Psalm 90:17; 104:23; Proverbs 18:9; 21:8; i Thess. 4:11). The field of the slothful is paved with thorns. oG Oh, you just have not been on the forum long enough. Years ago, I called it, "righteousness by self-deprivation." Robert puts this burden on those he disagrees with but won't lift his little finger to do the same. Does that sound familiar? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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