'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Ellen White gave Old Covenant commands, period. Why?

Originally Posted By: John

Because they are still applicable. There is nothing wrong with the commands.

Then there's no use continuing with this conversation because you have accepted what Paul terms "another gospel" (see Gal 1:6-9)

Originally Posted By: John

Everything depends on whether we see the words in the light of legalism and apart from the grace of God....

Ellen White is not Paul and she doesn't carry his authority. Paul directly links these OC phrases with what the law demands for one to enter heaven.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.”

Under law you must be spotless - you must live Christ's life in every detail. No self-seeking in your life - zip - none - zero! If you fail in the slightest point you must take the 2nd death upon yourself.

Under grace we are no longer under the demands of "obey & live, disobey & die"! The law can no longer touch you because as far as it is concerned you lived, died and were resurrected "in Christ" and in Him you stand perfect before God's law. That's grace. That's why Paul states, "The just by faith shall live" instead of "obey and live"! Two different systems.

Rob

Good John, I'm glad you have no answers. That means you are thinking; letting go of your preconceived ideas.

Rob

[B Humble]

So, where does the Creator command "us" (Christians, mostly uncircumcised Gentiles) to keep the Jewish Sabbath? The Apostle Paul was a Jew. It is natural that he went into a Jewish synagogue (a place the SDA has never gone into to preach Christ like the Apostle Paul did) on the Sabbath. I don't think Adventism imitates the Apostle Paul remotely. They don't celebrate the Feasts Paul did either. Adventist pick and choose how they want to follow Paul in a very poor manner.

Please identify one time when any Adventist evangelist or maybe the self proclaimed, self-styled prophetess went into a Jewish Synagogue on the Sabbath Day and preached Christ.

After that, then give me one scripture where any prophet from Moses to Christ that commanded uncircumcised Gentiles to keep the Sabbath Day. Oh, and just for fun, LOOK AT THE CONTEXT TO WHOM THE LORD IS SPEAKING. Did you ever notice that the 10 commandments were give to "the Children of Israel" and not to the Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, Indians?

I know how you all are, context means nothing. Before you jump to Mark 2:27, I suggest you look at the context there too. Christ is defending his disciples for doing what is "NOT LAWFUL" on the Sabbath Day.

[Guest]

So, where does the Creator command "us" (Christians, mostly uncircumcised Gentiles) to keep the Jewish Sabbath?

Why do you call it the "Jewish" Sabbath? The Sabbath was established 2000 years before there ever was a Jew.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

[BobRyan]

Here is a better link: 'Deception': Christians war over worship day

It is a pretty lengthy article but I think it is fair to the issue. I have heard Pastor Greg Lurie preach on the issue and his points are weak - very weak. I wrote him a detailed letter breaking down each point he made. Of course he didn't answer. I don't like his preaching style even when I agree with what he is teaching. He comes across as very arrogant.

I guess the basketball team controversy in Oregon brought this article about. Good. We are getting people thinking.

Ok that was just a fantastic article at that link!!

Pass it on to every non-Sabbath keeping Christian you know.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

So, where does the Creator command "us" (Christians, mostly uncircumcised Gentiles) to keep the Jewish Sabbath? The Apostle Paul was a Jew. It is natural that he went into a Jewish synagogue (a place the SDA has never gone into to preach Christ like the Apostle Paul did) on the Sabbath. I don't think Adventism imitates the Apostle Paul remotely. They don't celebrate the Feasts Paul did either. Adventist pick and choose how they want to follow Paul in a very poor manner.

Please identify one time when any Adventist evangelist or maybe the self proclaimed, self-styled prophetess went into a Jewish Synagogue on the Sabbath Day and preached Christ.

After that, then give me one scripture where any prophet from Moses to Christ that commanded uncircumcised Gentiles to keep the Sabbath Day. Oh, and just for fun, LOOK AT THE CONTEXT TO WHOM THE LORD IS SPEAKING. Did you ever notice that the 10 commandments were give to "the Children of Israel" and not to the Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, Indians?

I know how you all are, context means nothing. Before you jump to Mark 2:27, I suggest you look at the context there too. Christ is defending his disciples for doing what is "NOT LAWFUL" on the Sabbath Day.

Quote:

Your questions are good because the manifest the fundamental lack of biblical understanding in Adventism. Adventist while claiming to have all this biblical understanding don't have a simple fundamental understanding as to know the difference between a Jew and an Arab, Japanese, Chinese or Indian. Adventism doesn't know what makes Jews different from the Arabs. They think both are obligated to be Sabbath keepers. IT MAKES MY BRAIN HURT IT'S SO FOOLISH!

1st error: there is no scriptural support for "the Sabbath" being "instituted in the garden of Eden". The word Sabbath is not used until Ex.19. The Sabbath was "instituted" as a commandment for ANYONE to keep until the JEWS were commanded to keep it in Exodus 19. No Gentile nations were ever commanded to keep the Sabbath.

Since you have a low opinion of how SDAs interpret Scripture, let me quote non-SDA sources as to how they interpret Gen 2:2-3 which says:

And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation. ESV.

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2:1-3. The seventh day was the day of rest, the Sabbath. The structure of verses 2 and 3 in the Hebrew is well ordered in its clauses with parallel emphases on the adjective seventh. The number “seven” often represents the covenant (the verb “swear” is related etymologically); thus it is no surprise that the Sabbath became the sign of God’s covenant at Sinai (Ex. 31:13, 17).

God blessed the seventh day and made it holy (sanctified it) because it commemorated the completion or cessation of His creative work. God’s Sabbath rest became a predominant motif of Scripture. Here before the Fall it represented the perfect Creation, sanctified and at rest. After the Fall this rest became a goal to be sought. The establishment of theocratic rest in the land, whether by Moses or by Joshua at the Conquest, demanded faith and obedience. Today believers enter into that Sabbath rest spiritually (Heb. 4:8-10) and will certainly share in its full restoration.

The account of Creation, seen through the eyes of the new nation of Israel in Moses’ day, had great theological significance. Out of the chaos and darkness of the pagan world God brought His people, teaching them the truth, guaranteeing them victory over all powers in heaven and earth, commissioning them to be His representatives, and promising them theocratic rest. So too it would encourage believers of all ages.

Walvoord, J. F., Zuck, R. B., & Dallas Theological Seminary. (1983-c1985). The Bible knowledge commentary : An exposition of the scriptures (1:29-30). Wheaton, IL: Victor Books.

I believe the "Dallas Theological Seminary" is Baptist.

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Ge 2:2–7. The First Sabbath.2. and he rested on the seventh day—not to repose from exhaustion with labor (see Is 40:28), but ceased from working, an example equivalent to a command that we also should cease from labor of every kind.

3. blessed and sanctified the seventh day—a peculiar distinction put upon it above the other six days, and showing it was devoted to sacred purposes. The institution of the Sabbath is as old as creation, giving rise to that weekly division of time which prevailed in the earliest ages. It is a wise and beneficent law, affording that regular interval of rest which the physical nature of man and the animals employed in his service requires, and the neglect of which brings both to premature decay. Moreover, it secures an appointed season for religious worship, and if it was necessary in a state of primeval innocence, how much more so now, when mankind has a strong tendency to forget God and His claims?Jamieson, R., Fausset, A. R., Fausset, A. R., Brown, D., & Brown, D. (1997). A commentary, critical and explanatory, on the Old and New Testaments. On spine: Critical and explanatory commentary. (Ge 2:2). Oak Harbor, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

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2:1–3 The holy seventh day

A dramatic change of pace and style highlights the distinctiveness of the Sabbath. The seventh day is not called the Sabbath here, but it is alluded to, for he rested could be paraphrased ‘he Sabbathed’. Furthermore, the seventh day’s importance is underlined by God blessing it and making it holy. The Sabbath is regularly called ‘holy’, but only in Ne. 8:9, 11 is any other festival called ‘holy’. Here, God is described as resting on the seventh day, but the narrator clearly implies that mankind, made in the divine image, is expected to copy his Creator. Indeed, the context implies that a weekly day of rest is as necessary for human survival as sex (1:27–28) or food (1:29). This is an emphasis that seems to have been forgotten today, even amongst Christians.

Carson, D. A. (1994). New Bible commentary : 21st century edition. Rev. ed. of: The new Bible commentary. 3rd ed. / edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer. 1970. (4th ed.) (Ge 2:1). Leicester, England; Downers Grove, Ill., USA: Inter-Varsity Press.

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The blessing and sanctifying of the seventh day had regard, no doubt, to the Sabbath, which Israel as the people of God was afterwards to keep; but we are not to suppose that the theocratic Sabbath was instituted here, or that the institution of that Sabbath was transferred to the history of the creation. On the contrary, the Sabbath of the Israelites had a deeper meaning, founded in the nature and development of the created world, not for Israel only, but for all mankind, or rather for the whole creation. As the whole earthly creation is subject to the changes of time and the law of temporal motion and development; so all creatures not only stand in need of definite recurring periods of rest, for the sake of recruiting their strength and gaining new power for further development, but they also look forward to a time when all restlessness shall give place to the blessed rest of the perfect consummation. To this rest the resting of God (ἡ κατάπαυσις) points forward; and to this rest, this divine σαββατισμός (Heb. 4:9),

Keil, C. F., & Delitzsch, F. (2002). Commentary on the Old Testament. (1:42-43). Peabody, MA: Hendrickson.

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So God blessed the seventh day and hallowed it: some interpreters suggest that God gives his blessing to those who observe the seventh day, but it is more probable that the blessing is given to the seventh day itself. Blessed has the sense of God giving or conferring his favor, so that the one who receives it receives a benefit. In some languages bless may be rendered, for example, “So God gave to the seventh day his special goodness,” “So God made the seventh day good by …,” or “God made the seventh day special.” Hallowed translates a word whose intensive form means “to sanctify,” that is, “to set apart for God’s use, to dedicate to God.” When translating hallowed in this context, it may be necessary to make the purpose clear; for example, “God set it apart as a special day for rest” or “God made it a special day and made it a day when people can rest and worship him.”

Reyburn, W. D., & Fry, E. M. (1997). A handbook on Genesis. UBS handbook series (55). New York: United Bible Societies.

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II. The commencement of the kingdom of grace, in the sanctification of the sabbath day, v. 3. He rested on that day, and took a complacency in his creatures, and then sanctified it, and appointed us, on that day, to rest and take a complacency in the Creator; and his rest is, in the fourth commandment, made a reason for ours, after six days’ labour. Observe, 1. The solemn observance of one day in seven, as a day of holy rest and holy work, to God’s honour, is the indispensable duty of all those to whom God has revealed his holy sabbaths. 2. The way of sabbath-sanctification is the good old way, Jer. 6:16. Sabbaths are as ancient as the world; and I see no reason to doubt that the sabbath, being now instituted in innocency, was religiously observed by the people of God throughout the patriarchal age. 3. The sabbath of the Lord is truly honourable, and we have reason to honour it—honour it for the sake of its antiquity, its great Author, the sanctification of the first sabbath by the holy God himself, and by our first parents in innocency, in obedience to him. 4. The sabbath day is a blessed day, for God blessed it, and that which he blesses is blessed indeed. God has put an honour upon it, has appointed us, on that day, to bless him, and has promised, on that day, to meet us and bless us. 5. The sabbath day is a holy day, for God has sanctified it. He has separated and distinguished it from the rest of the days of the week, and he has consecrated it and set it apart to himself and his own service and honour.

Henry, M. (1996, c1991). Matthew Henry's commentary on the whole Bible : Complete and unabridged in one volume (Ge 2:1). Peabody: Hendrickson.

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And he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. Shavath, the primary idea of which is to sit still, depicts Elohim as desisting from his creative labours, and assuming a posture of quiescent repose. The expression is a pure anthropomorphism. “He who fainteth not, neither is weary” (Isa. 40:28), can be conceived of neither as resting nor as needing rest through either exhaustion or fatigue. Cessation from previous occupation is all that is implied in the figure, and is quite compatible with continuous activity in other directions. John 5:17 represents the Father as working from that period onward in the preservation and redemption of that world which by his preceding labours he had created and made.

Ver. 3. And God blessed the seventh day. The blessing (cf. ch. 1:22, 28) of the seventh day implied—1. That it was thereby declared to be the special object of the Divine favour. 2. That it was thenceforth to be a day or epoch of blessing for his creation. And—3. That it was to be invested with a permanence which did not belong to the other six one of which passed away and gave place to a successor. And sanctified it. Literally, declared it holy, or set it apart for holy purposesThe Pulpit Commentary: Genesis. 2004 (H. D. M. Spence-Jones, Ed.) (35). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.Quote:

3rd error: If you think keeping the Sabbath day is being a model after Jesus and Paul, you are FAR, FAR, FAR, from the truth. Both Jesus and Paul were circumcised on the 8th day, ritually cleansed, keep the Feasts of booths, Pentecost, Day of Atonement, FEAST OF TRUMPETS, PUT LEAVENING OUT OF THEIR HOUSE, KILLED AND EAT THE PASSOVER LAMB ON CERTAIN DAY, ritual cleansings..etc, NONE OF THE THINGS YOU ADVENTIST DO. If you are going to follow Christ and Paul in their Jewishness DON'T BE HALF A_SED. It makes you look bad.

My, my. Why do you hate so much something that God blessed? Quote:

4th error. The Gentiles who never kept Sabbath Days, feasts ritual cleansings, circumcision of the flesh were saved by faith just as the Jews, who were obligated to keep all the law of Moses because God is the God of both the Jews and the Gentiles.

Notice that these non-SDA commentators almost all refer to the Sabbath as something for all of God's creation - even the working animals and servants were to be given rest from labor. And I have a few more commentaries saying essentially the same thing if you need more convincing that SDAs are not as primitive in their interpretation of Scripture as you think.

[jasd]

>>...if Sunday was intended by God to be part of the New Covenant, it would have needed to be made part of it before the New Covenant was ratified by the death of Christ.<<

That would obtain, imho, only should the belief that the New Covenant contained articles, or otherwise, specifically applicable to or including a day of worship - to be ratified; the arguments re a 'literal' reading of Matthew 28:1 aside, as well

the significance implied by the two leavened loaves...

[jasd]

>>"The Sabbath is not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds" (DA 207).<< [ed.jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Robert

Not an authority!

Upon this point, Robert is correct. The Fourth Commandment forbids even the utilization of the beast within your gates; rest even extended to them. EGW disqualified herself from exclaiming upon this point, as both she and her husband

hitched buggy to horse on their Sabbaths -- to do the Lord’s work.

“Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice...”

[jasd]

>>The Sabbath of the NT and the OT is one and the same Sabbath. It did not change before the New Covenant was ratified.<<

Indeed; however, presently, only Gd knows its cycles. One has only to come to the knowledge that the Seventh-day Sabbaths were pegged to the Feasts of the LORD as outlined in Leviticus 23 – and attempt

to reconcile that with the 365and ¼ day calendar year. It is even more difficult to reconcile with the moon cycles.

The best intellects of the Jewish peoples since, have only approximated the OT Seventh-day Sabbath cycles – as evidenced in the one instance – with the 'postponements'. The present Hebrew calendar is based upon

Babylonian astronomical reckonings.

Do the Sabbaths of the Seventh-day Adventists coincide with the Jewish Sabbaths? Exactamente.

[Dr. Rich]

B Humble wrote: "After that, then give me one scripture where any prophet from Moses to Christ that commanded uncircumcised Gentiles to keep the Sabbath Day. Oh, and just for fun, LOOK AT THE CONTEXT TO WHOM THE LORD IS SPEAKING. Did you ever notice that the 10 commandments were give to "the Children of Israel" and not to the Japanese, Chinese, Arabs, Indians?"

Ok, here you go: Revelation is what God the Father gave to Jesus to give to an Angel to give to John. The chain of evidence was never broken. Revelation 12:17 tell us that those who are Born of the Woman being the Holy Spirit, and therefore becoming like God with the Family name of God, will be those who keep all of the ten commandments and abide in the words of Jesus.

Now read Rev. 5:9,10 and you will see that those in the Kingdom of Heaven will be from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. Here God is letting us know that the prophecy in Dan. 2 about the 'rock cut out w/o hands' is this group and they are from every tribe and nation, meaning they come from all over the world and no race is superior then another.

You will notice that these words trump the words of Paul, Luke and the unknown writer of Hebrews because John was an eyewitness of Jesus' ministry while here on this earth. (John 14:26 and 17:19-20)

So B Humble, good luck in your false belief and foundation that you have built upon the words of others other than the eyewitnesses of Jesus.

[BobRyan]

>>"The Sabbath is not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds" (DA 207).<< [ed.jasd]

The Fourth Commandment forbids even the utilization of the beast within your gates; rest even extended to them. EGW disqualified herself from exclaiming upon this point, as both she and her husband

hitched buggy to horse on their Sabbaths -- to do the Lord’s work.

“Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice...”

Your innattention to the "detail" about "holy deeds" is not as well masked as you might have at first hoped.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

>>"The Sabbath is not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds" (DA 207).<< [ed.jasd]

Quote:

Quote:Robert

Not an authority!

Upon this point, Robert is correct. The Fourth Commandment forbids even the utilization of the beast within your gates; rest even extended to them. EGW disqualified herself from exclaiming upon this point, as both she and her husband

hitched buggy to horse on their Sabbaths -- to do the Lord’s work.

“Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice...”

If man is commended for doing good and for doing the Lord's work on the Sabbath, surely it is ok for a beast of burden to assist him in that work?

[jasd]

>>Your innattention to the "detail" about "holy deeds" is not as well masked as you might have at first hoped.<<

Re the exclamative red words - of not Jesus Christ - but of the .Org's icon: whoopee! Though another might, I do not place all that much value upon [attempts at] self-validation.

rotsa ruck

You would do better to reference the priest's work upon the Sabbath; however, but upon that road of randomness - lies the discombobulative.

[Guest]

Hey hey HEY! Let's not get discombobulated here.

[jasd]

>>If man is commended for doing good and for doing the Lord's work on the Sabbath, surely it is ok for a beast of burden to assist him in that work?<<

Sounds like equivocation and an atempt to justify expediency.

[Gerr]

>>If man is commended for doing good and for doing the Lord's work on the Sabbath, surely it is ok for a beast of burden to assist him in that work?<<

Sounds like equivocation and an atempt to justify expediency.

Common sense.

[B Humble]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

So, where does the Creator command "us" (Christians, mostly uncircumcised Gentiles) to keep the Jewish Sabbath?

Why do you call it the "Jewish" Sabbath? The Sabbath was established 2000 years before there ever was a Jew.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

So Shane, do you believe Adam and Even entered "GOD'S REST" ON THE SEVENTH DAY in Genesis?? If so, then they have no need of Christ, for they already entered God's Rest.

If not, why didn't they? Since, they rested as God rested, with God.

[Guest]

Why would they not need Christ? After they sinned they needed a saviour. Jesus came to pay the penalty for sin, not to replace the Sabbath. In fact, the reason He came has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

[B Humble]

Why would they not need Christ? After they sinned they needed a saviour. Jesus came to pay the penalty for sin, not to replace the Sabbath. In fact, the reason He came has nothing to do with the Sabbath.

Because, if God had given them, "God's Rest", then there would not be need of another Sabbath rest. The temporary resting from one week to another by man, demonstrates that the rest is not God's rest but a type of God's rest in which once they enter, they will no longer need rest, it is a permanent rest. That's why the scripture says, "I swore in my wrath, they shall not enter into my rest". And again scripture says, "As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world." Much more, in Hebrews:4: 1Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it. "

And for sure, the reason Christ came was to grant us "Rest" by Salvation through his death. As the scripture again reads, We which do believe do enter rest, yet those who do not believe cannot enter his rest as it is written: Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:"

That you may know the scripture is speaking of the ultimate salvation, the scripture then says, "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. "

Therefore, we know Adam and Eve did not enter God's Rest, nor keep a Sabbath Day with God on the 7th day. Had they entered God's Rest, they would not have sinned! Because, they would have CEASED FROM THEIR OWN WORKS as God did from his.

Therefore, the Holy Spirit deliberately did not include Adam and Eve in the Scripture as having kept a rest with God on the 7th day.

[Guest]

Harden not your hearts, as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness:

Therefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do always err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.

So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)

Heb 3:8,11

He wasn't talking to Sabbath keepers, He was referring to those who had rejected Christ. And where in the Bible does it say anything about the Sabbath rest being permanent? I sure haven't seen it.

[Guest]

Context is everything.

[BobRyan]

>>"The Sabbath is not intended to be a period of useless inactivity. The law forbids secular labor on the rest day of the Lord; the toil that gains a livelihood must cease; no labor for worldly pleasure or profit is lawful upon that day; but as God ceased His labor of creating, and rested upon the Sabbath and blessed it, so man is to leave the occupations of his daily life, and devote those sacred hours to healthful rest, to worship, and to holy deeds" (DA 207).<< [ed.jasd]

The Fourth Commandment forbids even the utilization of the beast within your gates; rest even extended to them. EGW disqualified herself from exclaiming upon this point, as both she and her husband

hitched buggy to horse on their Sabbaths -- to do the Lord’s work.

“Behold, to obey [is] better than sacrifice...”

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: B Humble

So, where does the Creator command "us" (Christians, mostly uncircumcised Gentiles) to keep the Jewish Sabbath?

Why do you call it the "Jewish" Sabbath? The Sabbath was established 2000 years before there ever was a Jew.

Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.

And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made. Gen 2:1-3

[jasd]

>>Common sense.<<

No matter how gussied or gilded, a sow's ear is still a sow's ear

[Musicman1228]

Bob said, "They rested on the Sabbath - in full and open communion with God the Son - no need for blood to cover their sins."

Your point is well taken and I agree with this in principle, with two differences: Yes, they were in open communion with GOD, but at this time there was no Son of God; He had not yet been born as a human being. And yes Adam and Eve had no need for a Savior because they had not yet sinned; but Jesus did not come to cover up our sins with His robe of righteousness, He came to pay our penalty so that when we go through and finish the process of Sanctification our righteousness will actually eliminate the sin from our lives - THEN the payment of the penalty by His blood will matter. If our sins are only covered then we still have them and we cannot enter the Kingdom of God.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Re the exclamative red words - of not Jesus Christ - but of the .Org's icon:

>>So then you are only left with the words of Christ to the Jews defending the work of the Disciples in the service of Christ on the Sabbath by comparing that to the work of the Priests on the Sabbath?

A flaw in your argument which even you appeare to concede.<<

Quote:

Quote:jasd

You would do better to reference the priest's work upon the Sabbath;

What work did the Disciples or the OT priests do that required hitching their beast(s) to do work upon the Sabbath day? I believe Writ tells us only that

good or "holy deeds" are permissible to one upon the Sabbath day; not the discomforting of beasts (Ex 20:10) that allowed one to seek after his or her own comfort.

Unless there was something bad wrong with a person’s ability to get there from here (or vice versa) upon the Sabbath day – there exists no lacuna in Writ which permitted the act of hitching up ol’ Dolly on the Sabbath to one’s wagon, buggy, cart, or whatever. Excusing such a thing serves only as premise for anyone thenceforward,

to construct any and all justifications for one’s own actions upon the Sabbath day.

That is – exactly – where the keeping of litmuses, shibboleths, dogmas, hocus-pocuses, etc re the Sabbath have come. Is it not good

that one furnish the Temple of Gd upon the Sabbath?—so, why is it that when assembled, the hunger of poseurs necessitates that they purchase meal tickets on any day of the week other than upon the Sabbath day - that they might eat upon the Sabbath day? Examples abound.