'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[BobRyan]

Bob said, "They rested on the Sabbath - in full and open communion with God the Son - no need for blood to cover their sins."

Your point is well taken and I agree with this in principle, with two differences: Yes, they were in open communion with GOD, but at this time there was no Son of God; He had not yet been born as a human being.

[Heaven Bound]

All I have to say is, God gave us a wonderful gift... The gift of decision... Free moral agents. However, after all that He has done for, and continues to do for us, why would anyone not want to worship Him? I hear people make excuses to not have to worship God, all the time. I love Him, and therefore want to worship Him:)

[Woody]

Welcome Heaven Bound. I really like your name. I'm with you. For I am also heaven bound. And I can't wait to go home. !!!

[Musicman1228]

Is not this string is about the deception of the 'Church' in relationship to the 4th Commandment? Yet to my knowledge no one has addressed the issue of the 'Church' changing the day of rest (worship?) based on the Resurrection. The RCC says that since Jesus Christ was resurrected on Sunday morning the day of worship should be changed to Sunday to reflect that fact. I believe there is a valid argument against this but I would like you hear some of your ideas as to how to combat this misunderstanding.

I think it would be wise to address this issue since Easter is coming.

[jasd]

>>I believe there is a valid argument against this but I would like you hear some of your ideas as to how to combat this misunderstanding.<<

Perhaps, it may be that you should first clarify why

the premise is

"misunderstanding".

[Musicman1228]

1st question: If Sabbath (the 7th day) is so important to God why would He go out of His way to virtually confirm a change of day based on any substantive event, including the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the tomb, especially give the fact that He would have to have known ahead of time what the result of that event would be?

2nd question: Knowing the result ahead of time (omniscience) why would God orchestrate events such that they would give Satan an opening with which to change the day?

3rd question: What if God orchestrated events to confirm the Sabbath via the resurrection but Satan stepped in (because of questions #1 and #2) and through religious bias and translation error the church accepted Satan's version of events as truth, thereby being deceived into believing that Sunday was the day upon which Jesus Christ was resurrected?

Are these questions valid, and if so would the answers cast doubt on Sunday (the 1st day of the week) as the actual day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ?

[wayfinder]

Psalms 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD : He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.

8 'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Your possession.

9 'You shall break them with a rod of iron, You shall shatter them like earthenware .' "

10 Now therefore, O kings, show discernment ; Take warning, O judges of the earth.

11 Worship the LORD with reverence And rejoice with trembling.

12 Do homage to the Son, that He not become angry, and you perish in the way, For His wrath may soon be kindled. How blessed are all who take refuge in Him!

Isiah 9:6 For a child will be born to us, a son will be given to us; And the government will rest on His shoulders ; And His name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace.

Jesus is an eternal being because He was and is and always will be God, but He became the Son of God when He was placed in Mary's womb. Before He became the Son of God He lived in the form of an angel of the Lord and His name was Michael (Who is like God).

[Guest]

Jesus is an eternal being because He was and is and always will be God, but He became the Son of God when He was placed in Mary's womb. Before He became the Son of God He lived in the form of an angel of the Lord and His name was Michael (Who is like God).

wayfinder, Jesus (Michael) has always been the Son of God.

Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and you perish in the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.

And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual food; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Co 10:2-4

Dan 3:25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

[Dr. Rich]

Richard, I see that wayfinder erroneously wrote "Son of God" instead of "Son of Man" since he was replying to BobR. He probably meant to write that Jesus became the Son of MAN at that time--not the Son of God--Right? Don't we have scripture that say He was both, the Son of Man and the Son of God?

[jasd]

>>1st question: If Sabbath (the 7th day) is so important to God why would He go out of His way to virtually confirm a change of day<<

Assumption. Who’s made the argument that Gd virtually confirmed a change of day.

>>...based on any substantive event, including the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the tomb,<<

Man confirmed Sunday Sabbath. He did so legitimately, as the Gd-given Seventh-day Sabbath was not extant at the time of Jesus Christ’s epiphany - having, priorily, been removed from man’s reckoning centuries earlier. The Seventh-day Sabbath is so “important to Gd” that He, during the lives of Hosea and Jeremiah, secreted it that the COI might no longer profane it before the heathen. He did so by removing the Ecclesiastical calendar from both the Northern and the Southern Kingdoms.

The correct Sabbath day will be reinstituted in millennial earth.

Gd instituted the Seventh-day Sabbath for two reasons – given in the Torah. Okay, so creation was important; however, the crucifixion and resurrection of the Redeemer was inestimably more important! Had the adversary succeeded in tempting Him to sin, He, as well us – would have been lost to eternity; whereas, creation will become commonplace to us – perhaps, even creating in new dimensions with entire and multiple universes...! Ipso facto,

celebration of a Resurrection Day is a more worthy celebration than one of Creation.

>>...especially give the fact that He would have to have known ahead of time what the result of that event would be?<<

Aye, though sometimes Gd chooses to not avail Himself of His omniscience; that said, I believe Gd did know “ahead of time what the result of that event would be”, as He had, beforehand, instituted a Feast Day wherein He indicated so – by requiring priests to lift-up an offering of two leavened loaves.

>>2nd question: Knowing the result ahead of time (omniscience) why would God orchestrate events such that they would give Satan an opening with which to change the day?<<

Assumption. Why do you believe it was Satan who “changed the day”? Anyway, does Holy Writ proscribe our doing a thing as unto the Lord? No, it requires it.

>>3rd question: What if God orchestrated events to confirm the Sabbath via the resurrection but Satan stepped in (because of questions #1 and #2) and through religious bias and translation error the church accepted Satan's version of events as truth, thereby being deceived into believing that Sunday was the day upon which Jesus Christ was resurrected?<<

In fact, Jesus Christ resurrected upon the Seventh day – late afternoon or early evening. He did not ‘rest’ throughout the entirety of the Jewish Sabbath.

Satan is the adversary. Gd also called Himself “Adversary”. Why must “religious bias and translation error” be laid to Satan? Man is entirely capable of doing ‘wrong’ by his little ol’ self – without outside imput. Moreover, isn’t Satan rather busy in the courts of heaven

accusing the brethren before the Throne of Gd? He is not even upon earth at this time.

>>Are these questions valid, and if so would the answers cast doubt on Sunday (the 1st day of the week) as the actual day of the resurrection of Jesus Christ?<<

Indeed; however, that would not invalidate a keeping of Sunday as Sabbath. Neither would that, per se, nullify a Jewish Seventh-day Sabbath.

[Musicman1228]

jasd said, "Man confirmed Sunday Sabbath. He did so legitimately, as the Gd-given Seventh-day Sabbath was not extant at the time of Jesus Christ’s epiphany - having, priorily, been removed from man’s reckoning centuries earlier."

Please show me where this was accomplished by God centuries before Jesus was born. Do so from OT Scripture, not from Jewish folk lore. Thanks.

[oldsailor29]

When people say Sunday is Sabbath, it makes me want to puke.

[Musicman1228]

I agree with you 100%, oldsailor.

God would never do anything to change Sabbath to the :"Lord's day" which is Sunday; just as He would do nothing to abrogate any one of the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments are as one, you break one you have broken all. People that claim to hold dear the 10 Commandments and yet make Sunday their Sabbath are kidding themselves into thinking they are living by the Covenant. This is just what Satan wants, because he knows that God will not tolerate disobedience to any of the Ten Commandments.

The Christian church celebrates Easter as it's highest festival, much higher than even Christmas. They use the erroneous 'fact' that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday morning as the reason that the day of Worship was changed. So far the SDA church has not been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this is not what God wanted. There is proof that God did not change the day and it is right in Scripture, hidden in plain sight.

I have posted a link to a paper explaining in detail how it is that Jesus Christ fulfilled prophecy by being resurrected NOT on Sunday morning but on Sabbath just before sunset. Please look this material over and see if it doesn't make complete sense. This is what the SDA church should be proclaiming at Easter; that yes indeed Jesus Christ is risen, He is risen on Sabbath NOT on Sunday, so there is no legitimate reason to change the day.

The Sabbath Resurrection of Jesus Christ

[jasd]

>>Psalms 2:6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King Upon Zion, My holy mountain."

7 "I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD : He said to Me, 'You are My Son, Today I have begotten You.<<

Psalms 2 seems to be another prophetic psalm..., much as Psalms 22.

>>Jesus is an eternal being because He was and is and always will be God, but He became the Son of God when He was placed in Mary's womb.<<

Acts 13:33 God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

Jesus Christ was “begotten” after having been “raised up”; that is, resurrected...

>>Before He became the Son of God He lived in the form of an angel of the Lord and His name was Michael (Who is like God).<<<<

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

The above is asked in the negative; that is, none.

There is no angel sitting at the right hand of Gd – arch, or otherwise.

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Man confirmed Sunday Sabbath. He did so legitimately, as the Gd-given Seventh-day Sabbath was not extant at the time of Jesus Christ’s epiphany - having, priorily, been removed from man’s reckoning centuries earlier.

>>Please show me where this was accomplished by God centuries before Jesus was born. Do so from OT Scripture, not from Jewish folk lore. Thanks.<<

The following was cut and pasted from the thread: So why is it? on the Townhall board - posted 03.17.10.

Lam 2:6 And he hath violently taken away his tabernacle, as if it were of a garden: he hath destroyed his places of the assembly: the LORD hath caused the solemn feasts and sabbaths to be forgotten in Zion, and hath despised in the indignation of his anger the king and the priest.

Gd spoke through Jeremiah with a “Thus sayeth...”

KJV Hosea 2:11 I will also cause all her mirth to cease, her feast days, her new moons, and her sabbaths, and all her solemn feasts.

Gd spoke through Hosea with a “Thus sayeth...”

[oldsailor29]

nope musicman, you don't agree with me if you think Jesus rose from death on Sabbath.

There are too many established truths with which you do not agree.

Yet, I do understand why you do not gravitate to a different church.

[jasd]

>>When people say Sunday is Sabbath, it makes me want to puke.<<

That is so sad. The above sentiment expresses the symptomatic bane of parochial hermeneutics; however,

it is thought to be efficacious to “puke” when sick. It is reminded that aspirating such filth is to be avoided.

[jasd]

>>I agree with you 100%, oldsailor.<<

Redux.

>>God would never do anything to change Sabbath to the :"Lord's day" which is Sunday;<<

Surmising?—or bruiting of a fact?

>>...just as He would do nothing to abrogate any one of the 10 Commandments. The 10 Commandments are as one, you break one you have broken all.<<

Indeed, it is as it may pertain to the legalist.

>>People that claim to hold dear the 10 Commandments and yet make Sunday their Sabbath are kidding themselves into thinking they are living by the Covenant.<<

Specificity!—which Testament?

Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

>>This is just what Satan wants, because he knows that God will not tolerate disobedience to any of the Ten Commandments.<<

Did not Jesus Christ speak of two commandments?—those referenced in the Apocalypse?

>>The Christian church celebrates Easter as it's highest festival, much higher than even Christmas.<<

And ought it not be so?

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...creation was important; however, the crucifixion and resurrection of the Redeemer was inestimably more important! Had the adversary succeeded in tempting Him, He, as well us – would have been lost to eternity; whereas, creation will become commonplace to us...

>>They use the erroneous 'fact' that Jesus was resurrected on Sunday morning as the reason that the day of Worship was changed.<<

It matters not that their hermeneutics is incorrect: the worth of their observance of Easter lies with their understanding and in their hearts. They do it as unto the Lord.

>>So far the SDA church has not been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt that this is not what God wanted. There is proof that God did not change the day and it is right in Scripture, hidden in plain sight.<<

The fact is: Gd did not “change the day” in Holy Writ, but man filled the outstanding lacuna existing in epistemological fact, and worship Gd upon a day accepted and recognized as holy unto the Lord.

[Guest]

God would never do anything to change Sabbath to the :"Lord's day" which is Sunday;

How do you figure Sunday is the Lord's day?

Mar 2:28 Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath.

According to this text, the Sabbath is the Lord's day.

[wayfinder]

Revelation 11:19 NAS

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm

The temple of God in heaven has the ark of the covenant in it, it is the same covenant given to Moses on Mt. Horeb. Moses was told that what he was building on earth was a likeness of what was already in heaven. The covenant is as eternal as everything in heaven. The covenant, which contains ten commands, was and is the covenant of the Holy People, the kingdom of God.

Michael no longer has the form of an angel, He now has the form of mankind. He took the form of man when He became a Son of Man, when He was firstborn of Mary.

Daniel 7:13 NAS

[The Son of Man Presented] "I kept looking in the night visions, And behold, with the clouds of heaven One like a Son of Man was coming, And He came up to the Ancient of Days And was presented before Him.

[jasd]

>>Revelation 11:19 NAS

And the temple of God which is in heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His temple, and there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder and an earthquake and a great hailstorm

The temple of God in heaven has the ark of the covenant in it, it is the same covenant given to Moses on Mt. Horeb.<<

As I said, Gd secreted the Sabbath day.

>>Moses was told that what he was building on earth was a likeness of what was already in heaven.<<

That said, [extemporaneously] whatever happened to the Tabernacle at Shiloh? Did not Gd remove even both it and the very location of Shiloh?-so that, today, it is unknown? (unless one accepts what today’s Arabs impart)

So, Gd removed the entire Tabernacle and the location so that it exists only as historical legend; how easy then, that Gd might remove one article from His law?

>>The covenant is as eternal as everything in heaven.<<

Not so, except in part; that is, if we speak of the OT Covenant.

>>The covenant, which contains ten commands, was and is the covenant of the Holy People, the kingdom of God.<<

The Kingdom of Gd includes those who’ve never been told the Gospel or who do not know who Jesus Christ was/is. Those, even, whose religion is imparted by things created by Gd.

>>Michael no longer has the form of an angel, He now has the form of mankind. He took the form of man when He became a Son of Man, when He was firstborn of Mary.<<

Are you saying that Michael’s form determined whether He was Archangel or Gd?

[Musicman1228]

He was God in the FORM of an archangel, just as now He is God in human form. Same being different form.

[jasd]

>>He was God in the FORM of an archangel,<<

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Heb 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

The above is asked in the negative; that is, none.

There is no angel sitting at the right hand of Gd – arch, or otherwise.

Are you proposing that an Archangel is exempted from the meaning given "angels" in Hebrews 1:13?

[skyblue888]

The Bible says that before He came to this earth, Christ was in the form of God, not in the form of an angel.

"... Christ Jesus. Who, being in the form of God, thought it not a thing to be violently striven for, and held fast, to be equal with God. But made Himself of no reputation, and took upon Him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of man." Phil.2:6.

There is nothing in that verse which would even begin to suggest that He was in the form of an angel prior to His coming to this earth. The form of God He relinquished for ever but the glories of the form of God He relinquished only for a while. Now He is sitting at the right hand of God with the glories of the form of God upon His human form. This the redeemed will share.

sky

[Musicman1228]

skyblue888,

Yes, Phil 2:6 does say that, but that is just the personal opinion of Paul. Look at Daniel and Revelation and what it says about Jesus Christ as being an 'angel'. Remember, God is God, what ever the appearance.