Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Planey Allow me to extrapolate on this statement: Job, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. David, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Abraham, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Solomon, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. Joseph of Arimathea, you are rich because you have followed Satan's principle of self-seeking. I have probably missed lots of men whom God blessed here, but you get the message. Graeme [/quote'] God blesses with life and health. Man then take that blessing and use it for their gain.....Yes, all the above were self-seeking in some way. You too! God's formulae for prosperity in Dt 28 not withstanding? God blesses with life & health, but He who owns the silver, the gold, and the cattle on a thousand hills, will keep His people paupers? You have a joker for a god, Robert! Gerry PS Oh, I forgot, you would say, "Old Covenant!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo You talk about context as though Ex 20:8-11 or Gen 2 are somehow totally isolated from the rest of Scripture! While there were many who authored the Bible, let me remind you that there was ONE SPIRIT that inspired it all. Gerry But you are not the Spirit and your "connect a dot" doesn't make it with me. Clearly the CONTEXT of Genesis doesn't give us an indication that God made the Sabbath for Adam and Eve. Yes, you can assume this, but using the context you can't prove it. Which reminds me of a strategy advocated by an archdemon. "Insert yourself into the simple situations which call for plain and obvious duties, and complicate them, and complicate them again, until at last no one involved in them can make sense of the confusion." Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 26, 2008 Share Posted March 26, 2008 You are right Gerry we shouldn t make things too complicated. Either the whole law is binding (like Jesus said) or there is only one law left. Love God and your neighbour. Jesus said the law was binding, this includes the sabbath day. It is HIS day of authority. Sunday is a man-made glibberish deception tool for satan. Makes him feel like a genious. Not ONE little part of the law will cease to exist. Everytime people are trying to say that the sabbath is not binding anymore, are following man made philosophies. Think about it, on the new earth would it matter which day we would set aside to remember our creator?I think it would be very important that God places his authority in our life. If you create something, say kids, wouldn t you want to be the one who is deciding how your children are going to get raised?what if some stranger came over and said they should play soccer whereas you want em to play tennis?And what if eventually they ll play soccer?Intuitionally you know that there is something very wrong with authority. No there is not one verse in the bible that talks about the abolishment of the sabbath. If it were explicitly the case, there would have been written bible books about it, because the sabbath has always been such a dominant issue for the Jewish people and for the first Christians as well. I think the text where the bible talks about being cursed by the law, is telling us that if we believe the law will save us, we should be perfect and no human being has ever achieved the state of perfectness. Also Jesus thinks it is very important to keep the law because he says that in the end many will come to him and say, let me in, and then Jesus will answer them i never knew you, workers of lawlesness. Well somethin like that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 27, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo If God saw a need for the Sabbath for Adam & Eve before they sinned .... Show me where God gave Adam & Eve the Sabbath! ....I can't find where God gave it to Adam & Eve. Do you see it above? That is easy. The Creator of the Universe said Himself that the Sabbath was made for man. In Hebrew, Adam's name means man. Look it up yourself in Strong's Concordance #120 and #121. The Sabbath was made for Adam and for all his posterity. Remember that Genesis 2: 1-3 says that God blessed and made holy the seventh day of the week. Surely you don't think he made it holy and blessed for Himself. Does it make sense to you that God would make the Sabbath day for the benefit of man and then not tell any man about it for almost 2,000 years? By the way, I am positive that Jack Sequeira also believes, along with many non-SDA scholars and writers, that Adam knew about the Sabbath and kept it before the Fall. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 27, 2008 Quote: JOHN 317-- God commanded Adam not to eat from that tree, and he said that on the day he ate of it, he would begin to die. Did God give a command to Adam at that time or not? It was a command, not a "warning" as you claim. Gen. 2: 16, "And the Lord God commanded the man, sayng...." And the Bible is clear that Eve knew about the command of God. Eve says herself that God "said" not to eat of it and it is again clearly implied in 3:13, 14. Surely you cannot think that God would have punished Eve for something disobeying a command of which she was ignorant. Quote: JOHN3:17--In other words, should we say, "I know God has commanded thus-and-so, but until I understand why he's given this command, and agree that it is reasonable or fair, I refuse to obey it"? Quote: ROBERT: You tell me John: "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect" [Matt 5:48] But seek his kingdom, and these things [context: food & clothing] will be given to you as well. Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom. Sell your possessions and give to the poor. [Luke 12:31-33] [ May I respectfully suggest that you read the whole of verses 33-35. You will find that Jesus is not talking literally but spiritually. For instance, does the mention of "bags" refer to literally bags? Of course not. Does verse 34 refer to literal treasure? Of course it doesn't. Is verse 35 referring to our literal "loins" which must be "girded"? Again, anyone can see that he is not talking about literal things here. Just as, again, verse 35 is not talking about literal "lights burning," rather about spiritual lights. Or do you believe that all these things referred to in Luke 12: 32-35 are literal things? Quote: ROBERT: I'll tell you what you are going to do: You're going to question if this command from Christ means you....Your going to question this command, but you don't want me to question YOUR view of the Sabbath & worship! Two can play this game, John.... I am not questioning that these commands mean me, but I am showing you that you cannot possibly apply what Jesus says in Luke 12: 32-35 to literal things. Therefore it is plain as the nose on your face that you are not properly interpreting the verses if you insist that one line of it is literal but all the rest is spiritual. If Jesus intended for all his followers to sell everything they own and give all their money and belongings to the poor, we would see that command repeated and we would also see Peter, John, James, and Paul doing the same. We don't. Therefore you are misinterpreting Jesus' words. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Either the whole law is binding (like Jesus said) or there is only one law left....Jesus said the law was binding, this includes the sabbath day. It is HIS day of authority. Gal 3:10 "For all who rely on works of the law are under a curse; [why?] for it is written, “Cursed be every one who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, and do them.” 1] Those who make or rely on obedience to the law for their ticket to heaven are UNDER A CURSE! How so? 2] They must abide BY ALL THINGS IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW [the first, five chapter of the OT] and do them or they have had it! Keeping the Sabbath to be saved is really keeping sin. Agape fulfills the law. Keeping the Sabbath as a means of heaven is self-centered! It smacks with insecurity and selfishness. Hence such works will condemn the legalistic believer in the judgment. Agape is the fulfillment of the law. Where there is selfless acts there is agape, but we can only experience agape if we have the full assurance of salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Your going to question this command ...it is plain as the nose on your face that you are not properly interpreting the verses Thank you for making my point! Bingo! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 If Jesus intended for all his followers to sell everything they own and give all their money and belongings to the poor, we would see that command repeated and we would also see Peter, John, James, and Paul doing the same. Peter, John, James and Paul aren't your example...Christ is! Jesus said that He fulfilled the law. The Bible also says that "agape is the fulfillment of the law" Along with this we read, "God IS agape." Therefore God (Jesus) is the fulfillment of the law. Now look at His selfless life! That's the fulfillment of the law. Anything short of this is sin....Hence you and I are falling short of God's agape love. That's why Jesus said that you are to love your neighbor as you naturally, sinfully love self - i.e., "Love your neighbor as you love yourself"! One command! We are born loving self. That's why David could say of himself, "I was sinful by birth". The law demands that we take this self-centered love and stop projecting it inward, but rather outward. Agape, as Jack has stated correctly, has no self in it. Where you have self you have sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I am not questioning that these commands mean me, but I am showing you that you cannot possibly apply what Jesus says in Luke 12: 32-35 to literal things. Spiritualize this away: Agape principles: Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. In other words if I love you because you love me back that's not agape. That's self-love. I love you because you love me. But if you don't love me I hate you....That's human love. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. That's human love. I love you if you do me right....If I give you money I expect it back, but that's not agape....Here's agape: 35 But love your enemies [those who hate you], do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. That goes along with the principle seen in Luke chapter 12...the one you question. If you can question agape I can question the Sabbath as presented by you and other SDA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Show me where God gave Adam & Eve the Sabbath! ....I can't find where God gave it to Adam & Eve. Do you see it above? The Sabbath was made for Adam and for all his posterity. Remember that Genesis 2: 1-3 says that God blessed and made holy the seventh day of the week. Before the fall! We are after the fall and the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect and complete creation. If you don't believe me look at it: Gen 2:1 "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy' date=' [why?'] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. You see God didn't start creating after that 1st Sabbath. Creation was complete...it was sinless - it was perfect! Is this true now? Answer: No! Therefore the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless. You are teaching nonsense.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 If Jesus intended for all his followers to sell everything they own and give all their money and belongings to the poor.... The following was the result of the outpouring of God's Spirit in the life of the believers. We see agape is action: Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person [poor] among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. Note...everyone one was blessed. There were no poor....They had everything in common. No that's mine...there was no selfishness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Correction....The following should read: "The following was the result of the outpouring of God's Spirit in the lives of the believers. We see agape in action:" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Quote: Originally Posted By: John317 Show me where God gave Adam & Eve the Sabbath! ....I can't find where God gave it to Adam & Eve. Do you see it above? The Sabbath was made for Adam and for all his posterity. Remember that Genesis 2: 1-3 says that God blessed and made holy the seventh day of the week. Before the fall! We are after the fall and the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect and complete creation. If you don't believe me look at it: Gen 2:1 "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy' date=' [why?'] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. You see God didn't start creating after that 1st Sabbath. Creation was complete...it was sinless - it was perfect! Is this true now? Answer: No! Therefore the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless. You are teaching nonsense.... Not only is the Sabbath of creation meaningless after the fall of mankind, but it was never about formal worship. While the 7th day has always been the Sabbath its meaning...what it symbolizes...is in transition. Failure to realize this leads to confusion and legalism. At creation the Sabbath stood for a perfect & sinless creation. God rested because His work was perfect - it was complete. If Adam and Eve rested the 7th day it was an acknowledgment of God's sinless and perfect creation. But mankind fell and creation became corrupted. Lucifer became the god of this world and his principle of self has ruined it....So no longer does the Sabbath symbolize God's perfect and sinless creation. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The Sabbath was made for Adam and for all his posterity. Remember that Genesis 2: 1-3 says that God blessed and made holy the seventh day of the week. Before the fall! We are after the fall and the Sabbath no longer points to a perfect and complete creation. If you don't believe me look at it: Gen 2:1 "By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and made it holy' date=' [why?'] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. You see God didn't start creating after that 1st Sabbath. Creation was complete...it was sinless - it was perfect! Is this true now? Answer: No! Therefore the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless. You are teaching nonsense.... No, what you are saying is what makes no sense! Sinful man has become very forgetful. That's why we have atheists & evolutionists. All the more reason to have a constant reminder that there is a God in heaven who created all things and that someone messed it all up! Just because what I see is no longer perfect, does that give me the liberty to forget the Sabbath? No! It is still a reminder of what once was perfect, and in entering His Sabbath rest, I can rest assured that this creation marred by sin will someday be restored once again to its pristine perfection! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 If Jesus intended for all his followers to sell everything they own and give all their money and belongings to the poor.... The following was the result of the outpouring of God's Spirit in the life of the believers. We see agape is action: Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person [poor] among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. Note...everyone one was blessed. There were no poor....They had everything in common. No that's mine...there was no selfishness. If owning anything is selfishness, why do you perpetuate it by owning things? How ironic! You find only warning where God explicitly commanded Adam & Eve not to eat from one tree, and yet find a command where it was voluntary for the early disciples to have things in common. You might want to reverse your glasses if you are wearing one. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest truthseeker007 Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Come on Robert, where is your love for the truth? I ve never said that the law can save you, only Jesus can. But the law is binding in its totality. Why are you fighting against the sabbath? Why are you doing this?are you really that blind? Do you believe in any commandments at all? be consistent, either the whole law is valid, or there is no law. THe only commandment which brings us more into harmony with our creator should be honoured. I know for sure that Jesus agrees with me on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted March 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 I am not questioning that these commands mean me, but I am showing you that you cannot possibly apply what Jesus says in Luke 12: 32-35 to literal things. Spiritualize this away: Agape principles: Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you. 32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ love those who love them. In other words if I love you because you love me back that's not agape. That's self-love. I love you because you love me. But if you don't love me I hate you....That's human love. 33 And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ do that. 34 And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even ‘sinners’ lend to ‘sinners,’ expecting to be repaid in full. That's human love. I love you if you do me right....If I give you money I expect it back, but that's not agape....Here's agape: 35 But love your enemies [those who hate you], do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked. That goes along with the principle seen in Luke chapter 12...the one you question. If you can question agape I can question the Sabbath as presented by you and other SDA. Oh man. I've seen some very compulsive people in my lifetime, but you probably take the crown. It seems like no matter what the subject of discussion is, if you are involved in it, it will soon turn into the gospel of poverty, righteousness by self-deprivation! If you are really serious about this, Robert, there's an order you can join - the Franciscans. When you have joined them, then we'll know that you REALLY believe what you are advocating. Until then, you are no better than the Pharisees who lay burdens on people but lift not a finger to carry the same. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Quote: Therefore the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless. You are teaching nonsense.... Then, Robert, you consider the fourth commandment to be rubbish? Just be3 careful how you answer that. Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves." But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Oh man. I've seen some very compulsive people in my lifetime, but you probably take the crown. It seems like no matter what the subject of discussion is, if you are involved in it, it will soon turn into the gospel of poverty, righteousness by self-deprivation! If you are really serious about this, Robert, there's an order you can join - the Franciscans. When you have joined them, then we'll know that you REALLY believe what you are advocating. Until then, you are no better than the Pharisees who lay burdens on people but lift not a finger to carry the same.Gerry Finally it's out. However Jesus even has a way of salvation for such as this. "Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. "Luke 23:34 KJV OTOH there is a special place reserved for those who are satisfied with their enlightenment. "Jesus said to them, " If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ' We see,' your sin remains." John 9:41 NASB Regards! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Just because what I see is no longer perfect, does that give me the liberty to forget the Sabbath? No! It is still a reminder of what once was perfect, and in entering His Sabbath rest, I can rest assured that this creation marred by sin will someday be restored once again to its pristine perfection! God rested the Sabbath for one reason: His work was perfect - it was complete - it was sinless. That is no longer true. Hence your resting as God rested is meaningless this side of the fall. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 If owning anything is selfishness, why do you perpetuate it by owning things? Let me quote EGW: "Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [sT 7-1-1897] "Self-love, self-interest, must perish. And the law of self-sacrifice is the law of self-preservation." [DA 623] "In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God. . . ." [AG 45] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 I' ve never said that the law can save you, only Jesus can. But the law is binding in its totality. If the law is binding in its totality then through Jesus I must keep the law just as He did or else....This is legalism! If I kept the law as Jesus did I would be 100% unselfish in all that I did, but I am not deceived in that area. Hence EGW's warning: "We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [sC 28,29] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted March 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 If Jesus intended for all his followers to sell everything they own and give all their money and belongings to the poor.... The following was the result of the outpouring of God's Spirit in the life of the believers. We see agape is action: Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person [poor] among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. Note...everyone one was blessed. There were no poor....They had everything in common. No that's mine...there was no selfishness. Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Quote: Therefore the Sabbath as it points to creation is meaningless. You are teaching nonsense.... Then, Robert, you consider the fourth commandment to be rubbish? Just be3 careful how you answer that. Beryl Which law? The broken law: Ex 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, ...[why?] 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, but he rested on the seventh day. The restored law: Deut 5:12 ‘Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. 13 ‘Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work [why?] 15 ‘And you shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out of there by a mighty hand and by an outstretched arm; therefore the Lord your God commanded you to observe the sabbath day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted March 28, 2008 Share Posted March 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The following was the result of the outpouring of God's Spirit in the life of the believers. We see agape is action: Acts 4:32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus' date=' and abundant grace was upon them all. 34 For there was not a needy person [poor'] among them, for all who were owners of land or houses would sell them and bring the proceeds of the sales, 35 and lay them at the apostles’ feet; and they would be distributed to each, as any had need. Note...everyone one was blessed. There were no poor....They had everything in common. No that's mine...there was no selfishness. Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor. There were no poor in the Christian church during this time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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