'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day

[Robert]

Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor.

Christ emptied heaven for you....When He died He thought it was forever. He couldn't see beyond the tomb. His Father had forsaken Him....This is the 2nd death. So when He died He was in His mind saying goodbye to life forever so that you could take His place in heaven. And you worry about your possessions?

Anyway, here's EGW. You know, that quote that you guys continue to ignore, yet she's right on the money:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Notice that you won't be concerned about what's in it for you, but rather what's in it for another person's prosperity. No self-love in the equation.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

JOHN 3:17--

Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor.

Quote:

ROBERT: There were no poor in the Christian church during this time.

Were there poor outside the church?

For the purposes of the case you are making about Jesus' instructions to sell all and give to the poor, it is irrelevant that there were no poor in the church. Jesus did not say to give to the poor in the church, did he? He said give to the poor anywhere. If there are poor outside the church, the fact that there are no poor in the church does not keep you from having to sell everything and give to the poor-- that is, if you believe that Jesus means for you to understand those directions to be obeyed literally.

Acts 4: 32 does not say there were no poor; it says that everyone's needs were met. That is a big difference from saying no one was poor. They were poor by the standards we have today. The verse means that no one went hungry and that their daily needs were met, such as clothing and having a roof over their heads. The verse is not intended to teach that everyone had an equal amount of earthly possessions. It means that the ones most needy were given more because they had less.

An important distinction between what happened then and the way the communists tried to practice it was that it was motivated by love and a desire to give, whereas under the communists and socialists, people are compelled to give up money and possessions. Big difference here too.

I don't think there is a real disagreement between us here, except that I think your belief that Jesus meant his instructions to be taken literally by all his followers is mistaken. Jesus was teaching something extremely important about loving others and not being selfish. But you can obey him in this without selling everything you own and giving all the money away. Even Jesus did not do that nor did any of his followers. If they had done that, Jesus could not have stayed in Lazarus' and Mary and Martha's house, could he? And if they had done that, the disciples would not have had any boats to go fishing in.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor.

Christ emptied heaven for you....When He died He thought it was forever. He couldn't see beyond the tomb. His Father had forsaken Him....This is the 2nd death. So when He died He was in His mind saying goodbye to life forever so that you could take His place in heaven. And you worry about your possessions?

Anyway, here's EGW. You know, that quote that you guys continue to ignore, yet she's right on the money:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Notice that you won't be concerned about what's in it for you, but rather what's in it for another person's prosperity. No self-love in the equation.

I can agree with everything here, except that you evidently forget that God expects us not to be a burden on society by using foolish business practices and thus losing everything.

If you believe the individual Christians should sell everything they own and give the money to the poor, do you believe that the churches should do the same? For instance, do you believe the SDA church should sell all their properties and give all their holdings and money to the poor?

By the way, have you sold all your possessions and given away all the proceeds from the sell to the poor? Do you seriously believe this is what Jesus is calling you to do?

If I really believed that he was calling me to do it, I would do it.

[Woody]

Talking about banter ... you two have been going on and on.

I think the point here is ... We can't keep the law. Before the fall it was possible. Now it is not. But, we are no longer held accountable to the law because of the life and death of Jesus. We are to abide in the law but the law is no longer our task master. IOWs we are not to go out and kill. However ... if we do .... we are covered by the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of that sin.

Praise God. For ... this is the Gospel.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Notice that at no time in Christian history, even during the time of Acts 4:32, did Christians sell everything they had and give the money or all their possessions to the poor.

Christ emptied heaven for you....When He died He thought it was forever. He couldn't see beyond the tomb. His Father had forsaken Him....This is the 2nd death. So when He died He was in His mind saying goodbye to life forever so that you could take His place in heaven. And you worry about your possessions?

Anyway, here's EGW. You know, that quote that you guys continue to ignore, yet she's right on the money:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Notice that you won't be concerned about what's in it for you, but rather what's in it for another person's prosperity. No self-love in the equation.

"In the providence of God, those who have means have been brought into the truth, that, as the work increases, the wants of His cause may be met. God does not now call for the houses His people need to live in; but if those who have an abundance do not hear His voice, cut loose from the world, and sacrifice for God, He will pass them by, and will call for those who are willing to do anything for Jesus, even to sell their homes to meet the wants of the cause." CS 215

"The Bible does not condemn the rich man because he is rich; it does not declare the acquisition of wealth to be a sin, nor does it say that money is the root of all evil. On the contrary, the Scriptures state that it is God who gives the power to get wealth.......We cannot make the heart purer or holier by clothing the body in sackcloth, or depriving the home of all that ministers to comfort, taste, or convenience. CS 138

"You have been in a business which would at times yield you large profits at once.......Had you and your wife understood it to be a duty that God enjoined upon you, to deny your taste and your desires, and make provision for the future, instead of living merely for the present, you could now have had a competency, and your family have had the comforts of life. CS 250

"....I also saw thaat God had not required all of His people to dispose of their property at the same time, but if they desired to be taught, He would teach them, in a time of need, when to sell and how much to sell. Some have been required to dispose of their property in times past to sustain the advent cause, while others have been permitted to keep theirs until a time of need. Then, as the cause needs it, their duty is to sell." CS 60

Gerry

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Christ emptied heaven for you....When He died He thought it was forever. He couldn't see beyond the tomb. His Father had forsaken Him....This is the 2nd death. So when He died He was in His mind saying goodbye to life forever so that you could take His place in heaven. And you worry about your possessions?

Anyway, here's EGW. You know, that quote that you guys continue to ignore, yet she's right on the money:

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439']

Notice that you won't be concerned about what's in it for you, but rather what's in it for another person's prosperity. No self-love in the equation.

I can agree with everything here, except that you evidently forget that God expects us not to be a burden on society....

[Robert]

"The Bible does not condemn the rich man because he is rich; it does not declare the acquisition of wealth to be a sin, nor does it say that money is the root of all evil." [EGW]

Well Ellen seems to disagree with herself (if you haven't taken her out of context):

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain the higher education does not mean to gain popularity, to secure worldly advantage [$$$] - to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....His life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's law and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

BTW, here's what the Bible states:

Matt 19:23 “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

[Woody]

Quote:

"Those who are bartering the eternal weight of glory for a little of the glitter and tinsel of earth, the everlasting habitations for a home which can be theirs but a few years at best, are making an unwise choice. Such was the exchange made by Esau, when he sold his birthright for a mess of pottage; by Balaam, when he forfeited the favor of God for the rewards of the king of Midian; by Judas, when for thirty pieces of silver he betrayed the Lord of glory." [EGW]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Just because what I see is no longer perfect, does that give me the liberty to forget the Sabbath? No! It is still a reminder of what once was perfect, and in entering His Sabbath rest, I can rest assured that this creation marred by sin will someday be restored once again to its pristine perfection!

God rested the Sabbath for one reason: His work was perfect - it was complete - it was sinless. That is no longer true. Hence your resting as God rested is meaningless this side of the fall.

The Bible calls us to rest as God rested on the Seventh day of the week? How did God rest? Did He not "end His work" at the completion of the sixth day? (See Gen. 2:2.)

The author of Hebrews is comparing (very positively, I might add) the concept of the weekly Sabbath rest to the rest we find in Jesus. The author's point is that as we rest on the Sabbath by ceasing to work, so let us also cease from striving to earn salvation and instead rest and put all of our reliance completely in Jesus' salvation and righteousness. (Notice this kind of rest is to be entered into "diligently.")

[Robert]

Back to the subject: The Sabbath.

1] The Sabbath at creation:

God rested from His perfect and sinless creation and Hence He rested from His completed work.

2] The Sabbath at the cross:

God rested from His perfect and sinless work "in Christ Jesus" and hence He rested from His perfect work of redemption.

The Sabbath in the New Jerusalem:

3] God will once again rest from His perfect and sinless re-creation.

Which Sabbath fits now? Right, 2.

[Gerr]

Talking about banter ... you two have been going on and on.

I think the point here is ... We can't keep the law. Before the fall it was possible. Now it is not. But, we are no longer held accountable to the law because of the life and death of Jesus. We are to abide in the law but the law is no longer our task master. IOWs we are not to go out and kill. However ... if we do .... we are covered by the blood of Jesus for the forgiveness of that sin.

Praise God. For ... this is the Gospel.

"Satan declared that it was impossible for the sons and daughters of Adam to keep the law of God, and thus charged upon God a lack of wisdom and love. If they could not keep the law, then there was fault with the Lawgiver. Men who are under the control of Satan repeat these accusations against God, in asserting that men cannot keep the law of God. Jesus humbled Himself, clothing His divinity with humanity, in order that He might stand as the head and representative of the human family, and by both precept and example condemn sin in the flesh, and give the lie to Satan's charges. He was subjected to the fiercest temptations that human nature can know, yet He sinned not; for sin is the transgression of the law. By faith He laid hold on divinity, even as humanity may lay hold upon infinite power through Him." ST 1/16/1896

"We could not keep the law in our own strength." ST 9/23/1899

"Christ, in the victories achieved in His death on Calvary's cross, plainly lays open for man, and thus makes it possible for him to keep the law of God through the Way, the Truth, and the Life. There is no other way." 1SM 343

Gerry

[John317]

Resting in Jesus as our Savior and Lord does not do away with worshiping Him and the Father as our Creator on the Sabbath day. They are complementary rather than contradictory. The same Lord who made the universe is the One who died, rose, ascended to heaven, is now our Mediator, and will soon come as our Reigning King. The Sabbath will always be about the fact that God made the universe in the beginning and that He also rescued us from eternal death. The one does not exclude the other.

[Woody]

Quote:

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law." SC 62

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

God rested the Sabbath for one reason: His work was perfect - it was complete - it was sinless. That is no longer true. Hence your resting as God rested is meaningless this side of the fall.[/quote']

The Bible calls us to rest as God rested on the Seventh day of the week. How did God rest? Did He not "end His work" at the completion of the sixth day? (See Gen. 2:2.)

The author of Hebrews is comparing (very positively, I might add) the concept of the weekly Sabbath rest to the rest we find in Jesus. The author's point is that as we rest on the Sabbath by ceasing to work, so let us also cease from striving to earn salvation and instead rest and put all of our reliance completely in Jesus' salvation and righteousness. (Notice this kind of rest is to be entered into "diligently.")

And that's the only reason to observe the Sabbath. Anything outside this is misguided, outdated and legalistic.

Here's Jack:

In Matt. 11:28, Jesus said,

Come all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

Because of what Christ did, can men now enter into God’s rest? Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. What restored it? The redemptive work of Christ. So those who believe in the gospel do enter into His rest. What is His rest? It is peace, it is assurance, being justified by faith we have peace with God. No longer do we need to run away from God. We have peace! Therefore, the gospel has returned to us the Sabbath rest.

Turn to Heb. 4:9 where Paul is saying that the Jews still need to enter into God’s rest. They still need to keep the Sabbath. Now look at verse 10:

For he that is entered into His rest he also has ceased from his own works as God did from His.

When you believe the gospel, you cease from your works just like God ceased from His works. The redemption that Christ did here was perfect but was it finished? Please look at Rom. 5:11:

We rejoice because we have already received the atonement.

The word “atonement” is synonymous with “reconciled.” We have been reconciled by the death of His Son. How much contribution did we make to this redemptive work in Christ? None. Was Christ’s work perfect? Yes. Was it finished? Yes. Can you add to it? No. Can you improve on it? No. So when you enter His rest, please don’t try to improve your standing before God by your own works. Heb. 4 is not dealing with works in terms of the fruits of salvation but in terms of the means of salvation. Can you add to the righteousness you receive in Christ? No. Can you improve on it? No. What happens if you do? Read the book of Galatians and especially chapter 3:3:

You began well in the Spirit but now you are trying to become perfect in the flesh.

Look at Gal. 5:4:

Those of you who are trying to become righteous by the law have fallen from grace.

Please do not try to add to the righteousness you receive in Christ. It is perfect and it is finished. Therefore, he who has entered into God’s rest will cease from works of redeeming himself, just like Christ ceased from His works. Why did Christ cease from doing His part? Because it was complete. Heb.9:28:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for Him [those who look for Him are those who enter into God’s rest] shall He appear the second time without sin.

What does Paul mean by “without sin?” He will not come a second time to give the world a second chance. He will not come the second time to finish the work that He left undone. He has already dealt with the sin problem. When He comes the second time He will come to give the reality of that work which is salvation. So He will not come the second time to deal with the sin problem. He has done that by one sacrifice. He has sanctified forever those who are being sanctified. Heb.10:14. This work is finished.

This is what gives me peace and assurance. So the Sabbath becomes a delight. I delight in the Sabbath because I can face the realities of life with assurance because I know in whom I believe. Christ is my righteousness!

If you try to add to this, which the devil wants to do, that moment you are fallen from grace and you have no right to keep the Sabbath. Those who keep the Sabbath are those who have entered into His rest. His rest points to a perfect and finished work. So please let us not give the Sabbath a legalistic meaning. Let us give it a gospel meaning and the world will see that the Sabbath is vitally connected with the gospel.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

"The Bible does not condemn the rich man because he is rich; it does not declare the acquisition of wealth to be a sin, nor does it say that money is the root of all evil." [EGW]

Well Ellen seems to disagree with herself (if you haven't taken her out of context):

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain the higher education does not mean to gain popularity, to secure worldly advantage [$$$] - to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....His life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's law and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

BTW, here's what the Bible states:

Matt 19:23 “I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

"And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth..." Dt 8:18 NKJ.

Gerry

[Robert]

Resting in Jesus as our Savior and Lord does not do away with worshiping Him and the Father as our Creator on the Sabbath day.

There's no link....The Sabbath is a sign of redemption "in Christ"!

To worship God is to have no other gods before Him. Why? He is the only true God. There is no other way to heaven but through the Son of God. That isn't just reserved for the Sabbath...that's everyday!

[Gerr]

When you sell all you have, then we'll know you are not just giving lip service or just blowing smoke. Until then, please spare us this obsession.

Gerry

[Robert]

"And you shall remember the LORD your God, for it is He who gives you power to get wealth..." Dt 8:18 NKJ."

Yes, that's true. Look at Hugh Hefner [Playboy] for example. God has given him life....Hugh has taken that power to get wealth.

[John317]

Quote:

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law." SC 62

That's a great quote but we need to keep reading on the same page and the next:

More than this, Christ changes the heart. He abides in your heart by faith. You are to maintain this connection with Christ by faith and the continual surrender of your will to Him; and so long as you do this, He will work in you to will and to do according to His good pleasure. So you may say, "The life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave Himself for me." Galatians 2:20. So Jesus said to His disciples, "It is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you." Matthew 10:20. Then with Christ working in you, you will manifest the same spirit and do the same good works --works of righteousness, obedience.

So we have nothing in ourselves of which to boast. We have no ground for self-exaltation. Our only ground of hope is in the righteousness of Christ imputed to us, and in that wrought by His Spirit working in and through us.

When we speak of faith, there is a distinction that should be borne in mind. There is a kind of belief that is wholly distinct from faith. The existence and power of God, the truth of His word, are facts that even Satan and his hosts cannot at heart deny. The Bible says that "the devils also believe, and tremble;" but this is not faith. James 2:19. Where there is not only a belief in God's word, but a submission of the will to Him; where the heart is yielded to Him, the affections fixed upon Him, there is faith--faith that works by love and purifies the soul. Through this faith the heart is renewed in the image of God. And the heart that in its unrenewed state is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be, now delights in its holy precepts, exclaiming with the psalmist, "O how love I Thy law! it is my meditation all the day." Psalm 119:97. And the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us, "who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." Romans 8:1.

There are those who have known the pardoning love of Christ and who really desire to be children of God, yet they realize that their character is imperfect, their life faulty, and they are ready to doubt whether their hearts have been renewed by the Holy Spirit. To such I would say, Do not draw back in despair. We shall often have to bow down and weep at the feet of Jesus because of our shortcomings and mistakes, but we are not to be discouraged. Even if we are overcome by the enemy, we are not cast off, not forsaken and rejected of God. No; Christ is at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us. Said the beloved John, "These things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." 1 John 2:1. And do not forget the words of Christ, "The Father Himself loveth you." John 16:27. He desires to restore you to Himself, to see His own purity and holiness reflected in you. And if you will but yield yourself to Him, He that hath begun a good work in you will carry it forward to the day of Jesus Christ. Pray more fervently; believe more fully. As we come to distrust our own power, let us trust the power of our Redeemer..."

[Robert]

When you sell all you have, then we'll know you are not just giving lip service or just blowing smoke. Until then, please spare us this obsession.

Gerry

Like your obsession to push the law on folks?

The reason I give you more is so you'll shut up with your legalism and self-righteousness, but you don't so I keep reminding you that you are still selfish and therefore you have no business pushing law.

[Robert]

Back to the Sabbath subject:

In Matt. 11:28, Jesus said,

Come all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

Because of what Christ did, can men now enter into God’s rest? Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. What restored it? The redemptive work of Christ. So those who believe in the gospel do enter into His rest. What is His rest? It is peace, it is assurance, being justified by faith we have peace with God. No longer do we need to run away from God. We have peace! Therefore, the gospel has returned to us the Sabbath rest.

Turn to Heb. 4:9 where Paul is saying that the Jews still need to enter into God’s rest. They still need to keep the Sabbath. Now look at verse 10:

For he that is entered into His rest he also has ceased from his own works as God did from His.

When you believe the gospel, you cease from your works just like God ceased from His works. The redemption that Christ did here was perfect but was it finished? Please look at Rom. 5:11:

We rejoice because we have already received the atonement.

The word “atonement” is synonymous with “reconciled.” We have been reconciled by the death of His Son. How much contribution did we make to this redemptive work in Christ? None. Was Christ’s work perfect? Yes. Was it finished? Yes. Can you add to it? No. Can you improve on it? No. So when you enter His rest, please don’t try to improve your standing before God by your own works. Heb. 4 is not dealing with works in terms of the fruits of salvation but in terms of the means of salvation. Can you add to the righteousness you receive in Christ? No. Can you improve on it? No. What happens if you do? Read the book of Galatians and especially chapter 3:3:

You began well in the Spirit but now you are trying to become perfect in the flesh.

Look at Gal. 5:4:

Those of you who are trying to become righteous by the law have fallen from grace.

Please do not try to add to the righteousness you receive in Christ. It is perfect and it is finished. Therefore, he who has entered into God’s rest will cease from works of redeeming himself, just like Christ ceased from His works. Why did Christ cease from doing His part? Because it was complete. Heb.9:28:

So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many and unto them that look for Him [those who look for Him are those who enter into God’s rest] shall He appear the second time without sin.

What does Paul mean by “without sin?” He will not come a second time to give the world a second chance. He will not come the second time to finish the work that He left undone. He has already dealt with the sin problem. When He comes the second time He will come to give the reality of that work which is salvation. So He will not come the second time to deal with the sin problem. He has done that by one sacrifice. He has sanctified forever those who are being sanctified. Heb.10:14. This work is finished.

This is what gives me peace and assurance. So the Sabbath becomes a delight. I delight in the Sabbath because I can face the realities of life with assurance because I know in whom I believe. Christ is my righteousness!

If you try to add to this, which the devil wants to do, that moment you are fallen from grace and you have no right to keep the Sabbath. Those who keep the Sabbath are those who have entered into His rest. His rest points to a perfect and finished work. So please let us not give the Sabbath a legalistic meaning. Let us give it a gospel meaning and the world will see that the Sabbath is vitally connected with the gospel.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

When you sell all you have, then we'll know you are not just giving lip service or just blowing smoke. Until then, please spare us this obsession.

Gerry

Like your obsession to push the law on folks?

The reason I give you more is so you'll shut up with your legalism and self-righteousness, but you don't so I keep reminding you that you are still selfish and therefore you have no business pushing law.

"If you love Me, keep my commandments." Jesus.

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven." Jesus.

Was He pushing the law out or in?

Gerry

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Resting in Jesus as our Savior and Lord does not do away with worshiping Him and the Father as our Creator on the Sabbath day.

There's no link....The Sabbath is a sign of redemption "in Christ"!

To worship God is to have no other gods before Him. Why? He is the only true God. There is no other way to heaven but through the Son of God. That isn't just reserved for the Sabbath...that's everyday!

Of course it is every day.

The Bible itself makes the link, Robert. And even the ones you like to quote, both Jack Sequeira and Ellen White, make the link as well.

When Paul talks to the Athenians and to others in the NT, he quotes from the those parts of the law of God, the Sabbath commandment, which direct our attention to God as the Creator.

In the book of Revelation, when the Third Angels Messages are proclaimed to the whole world in order to prepare a people for the Second Coming, and to protect them from the seven last Plagues, the call is for people to worship the Creator "who made heaven and earth, the sea and springs of water" (Rev. 14: 7) That is a quote from Exodus 20: 11, part of the Sabbath commandment.

So it should be obvious that the Third Angels Messages is calling people's attention to God's law and specifically to the Sabbath, which is a weekly reminder that God created us.

Why is that important? Because, in the first place, as Daniel and Revelation both show, God's law has been trampled on and there has been an attempt to change it. The messages of the Three Angels are given to a world in rebellion against God's government, which is the same as saying it is in rebellion against God's character and His eternal law.

In the second place, it is important because only the One who made us and paid for us with His blood has a right to command human beings to worship Him and keep His law. Only He has a right to judge the world. Only He has the right to set up His Kingdom on earth, to destroy all earthly powers and to replace all human governments with His own.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The Bible calls us to rest as God rested on the Seventh day of the week. How did God rest? Did He not "end His work" at the completion of the sixth day? (See Gen. 2:2.)

The author of Hebrews is comparing (very positively, I might add) the concept of the weekly Sabbath rest to the rest we find in Jesus. The author's point is that as we rest on the Sabbath by ceasing to work, so let us also cease from striving to earn salvation and instead rest and put all of our reliance completely in Jesus' salvation and righteousness. (Notice this kind of rest is to be entered into "diligently.") [/quote']

Quote:

ROBERT-- And that's the only reason to observe the Sabbath. Anything outside this is misguided, outdated and legalistic.

The only reason you know about keeping the Seventh-day Sabbath is because God revealed it in His law. Without His law, you would not know about it. It was revealed to Adam and Eve before the law was given, but it had been forgotten and neglected by Israel when they were in Egyptian slavery. Therefore God had Moses begin Sabbath reform. Now the world has again forgotten and neglected the Sabbath and much of the rest of God's law, and so, for one last time, just before Christ returns, God is calling for a Sabbath reform; calling people back to a true knowledge of Him. A basic part of that knowledge is that God is our Creator.

There is no contradiction between His law and the gospel. We need both. The law without the gospel is works righteousness, or legalism; the gospel without the law leads to antinomianism, or against God's law.

[John317]

Back to the Sabbath subject:

In Matt. 11:28, Jesus said,

Come all ye that labour and are heavy laden and I will give you rest.

Because of what Christ did, can men now enter into God’s rest? Remember, the fall destroyed the significance of the Sabbath. What restored it? The redemptive work of Christ. So those who believe in the gospel do enter into His rest. What is His rest? It is peace, it is assurance, being justified by faith we have peace with God. No longer do we need to run away from God. We have peace! Therefore, the gospel has returned to us the Sabbath rest.

Notice what Jack has said here. The gospel returns to us the Sabbath rest. The gospel then does not contradict the Sabbath rest as a celebration and reminder of God as the Creator.

Quote:

Turn to Heb. 4:9 where Paul is saying that the Jews still need to enter into God’s rest. They still need to keep the Sabbath.

Notice that Jack says, "They still NEED to keep the Sabbath." Why did they NEED to keep the Sabbath? In your view, would we be wrong today to tell people they still NEED to keep the Sabbath?

Do we NEED to keep it in order to earn God's love or forgiveness or salvation? No, of course not. Then why do we NEED to keep the seventh day Sabbath? Because it is a weekly reminder of who God is, that He is both our Creator and Redeemer. It is a time that He blessed and made holy, a time for us to learn more of Him and to be drawn closer to Him.

But in the ultimate sense, Robert, the Sabbath is like the test that God gave to Adam and Eve in the garden. Just as God tested Adam and Eve to demonstrate their loyalty, so the Sabbath before Christ returns is a sign of who people choose to obey. There was no other reason to choose that particular tree in the garden, beyond the simple fact that God chose it and commanded them not to eat of it. Similarly, there is no other reason for the seventh day than the simple fact that God chose it and commands us to keep it holy.

Yes, there are additional reasons for keeping it, but only once a person acknowledges the fact of its being commanded to be kept holy. However, if a person rejects the commandment to keep it holy-- for whatever reason-- he can't see any reason to keep that particular day holy. Why not keep Sunday or Friday or any other day of the week? The Seventh-dayness of the Sabbath is what requires the law of God and a knowledge of God's blessing and sanctifying it at the beginning of time.