"Saved in our sins" By Tom Hughes

[Woody]

How many of you read the comments by Tom Hughes in the Ministry Magazine p.3 March 2008?

I will share just a snippet ... but I can share more if you want ...

Quote:

"If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed."[/

Interesting. Sounds familiar. Doesn't it?

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed."[/

If that were true, of what good reason would there be for Jesus to pray this prayer?

"I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one." John 17:15

Would He not be just giving a false hope?

Regards!

[fccool]

The "evil one" is not referred to sin, or even ourselves, but to Satan IMO. Don't you agree?

Jesus saves us both from our (past) sins and in our present sins. Obviously those that are present should be minimized as we become aware of those, but in this world you sin every day... The world has bin "rigged" around you to break the God's law without you knowing it. Either way, salvation is salvation... either in our sins, or from our sins... It is both.

[Woody]

This is a very good point fccool. Right On. Let me share a few more things that Tom had to say in Ministry.

Quote:

"The Holy Spirit is not our Savior, Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God,is. Good works are the result of the salvation we received as a free gift, not the cause of it."

This is spoken about as clear as it gets. No further commentary needed.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Walter veith says, that because of the holy spirit we can live sinlessly just like Christ. So God is able to save us from our sins. I don t think we are supposed to be saved in sin unless we don t have the oppurtunity to live sinlessly.

[Woody]

Ellen G. White made the following comment ...

Quote:

"It was possible for Adam, before the fall, to form a righteous character by obedience to God's law. But he failed to do this, and because of his sin our natures are fallen and we cannot make ourselves righteous. Since we are sinful, unholy, we cannot perfectly obey the holy law." Steps to Christ p. 62

[D. Allan]

Mr. Hughes is right-on on what the good-news is. Some think the gospel is good news AND bad news! (Everyone has enought bad news of their own without God adding to it.)

Anyway, how would a person know when they were absoultely free from sinning? There is a snippet in my memory that Ellen G. White said if such a thing were to happen to a person the person would NOT be aware of it. Therefore...? If one thinks he is free of sin... he's Doomed...?

[Woody]

TU

[LifeHiscost]

The "evil one" is not referred to sin, or even ourselves, but to Satan IMO. Don't you agree?

Jesus saves us both from our (past) sins and in our present sins. Obviously those that are present should be minimized as we become aware of those, but in this world you sin every day... The world has bin "rigged" around you to break the God's law without you knowing it. Either way, salvation is salvation... either in our sins, or from our sins... It is both.

As to "evil one", I would definitely say it refers to the devil. And he tempts us all. But the actions are carried out by the person who yields to the temptation. When one is kept from the "evil one", the actions remain circumspect.

"What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed," Romans 6:15-17 NASB

OTOH even at our finest moments our actions are tainted with personal selfishness. This according to the Word. Therefore it is important that we recognize we who rely on Jesus have been saved from our past sin by Jesus' righteousness, we are being saved from our present sinfulness by His righteousness, and we will be saved from the presence of sin to eternity, through His righteousness. There is a different dynamic in each scenario.

In Revelation it refers to the crowns the saints receive. They cast them at Jesus feet because, while the crowns are for reward for the victories gained on earth, they each know, no victories would have occured if Jesus' power had not replaced their own weaknesses.

"And when the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, to Him who lives forever and ever,

the twenty-four elders will fall down before Him who sits on the throne, and will worship Him who lives forever and ever, and will cast their crowns before the throne, saying,

"Worthy are You, our Lord and our God, to receive glory and honor and power; for You created all things, and because of Your will they existed, and were created." Revelation 4:9-12 NASB

Regards!

[Gerr]

The "evil one" is not referred to sin, or even ourselves, but to Satan IMO. Don't you agree?

Jesus saves us both from our (past) sins and in our present sins. Obviously those that are present should be minimized as we become aware of those, but in this world you sin every day... The world has bin "rigged" around you to break the God's law without you knowing it. Either way, salvation is salvation... either in our sins, or from our sins... It is both.

If you mean that we can be saved IN our sins [i mean sins that we deliberately keep on doing], I'd like to see it from Scripture. If that were so, for what reason would Jesus have to go to the Cross? For what reason are all the warnings against sinning?

Gerry

[Gerr]

Mr. Hughes is right-on on what the good-news is. Some think the gospel is good news AND bad news! (Everyone has enought bad news of their own without God adding to it.)

Is not the gospel bad new to those who reject it?

"He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already....And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil." Jn 3:18,19.

Gerry

[Gerr]

How many of you read the comments by Tom Hughes in the Ministry Magazine p.3 March 2008?

I will share just a snippet ... but I can share more if you want ...

Quote:

"If we can only be saved FROM our sins and not IN our sins, we are all doomed."[/

Interesting. Sounds familiar. Doesn't it?

Can you post the whole article to see what he is really saying?

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

Can you post the whole article to see what he is really saying?

He saying just what I've been saying all along. Christ DIED for those sins.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: fccool

The "evil one" is not referred to sin, or even ourselves, but to Satan IMO. Don't you agree?

Jesus saves us both from our (past) sins and in our present sins. Obviously those that are present should be minimized as we become aware of those, but in this world you sin every day... The world has bin "rigged" around you to break the God's law without you knowing it. Either way, salvation is salvation... either in our sins, or from our sins... It is both.

If you mean that we can be saved IN our sins [i mean sins that we deliberately keep on doing], I'd like to see it from Scripture. If that were so, for what reason would Jesus have to go to the Cross? For what reason are all the warnings against sinning?

Gerry

This is easy. Jesus had to go to the Cross to DIE for those sins. This is the Gospel. And why are there warnings against sinning? Because sins take us away from Christ and the best possible way of life.

The Bible is an owners manual. The manual has many warnings about things that might cause harm to the product. Sin is just a general catagory for things that can cause harm to us ... the product for which the owners manual was given.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

If you mean that we can be saved IN our sins [i mean sins that we deliberately keep on doing'], I'd like to see it from Scripture. If that were so, for what reason would Jesus have to go to the Cross? For what reason are all the warnings against sinning?

Gerry

This is easy. Jesus had to go to the Cross to DIE for those sins. This is the Gospel. And why are there warnings against sinning? Because sins take us away from Christ and the best possible way of life.

If sin takes a person away from Christ, how then can He save a person who wants to keep up that barrier? It would be un-christlike to save a person against his wishes!

Gerry

[olger]

Said the Lord:

"Be faithful until death and I (Jesus) will give you a crown of life."

og

[John317]

Mr. Hughes is right-on on what the good-news is. Some think the gospel is good news AND bad news! (Everyone has enought bad news of their own without God adding to it.)

Anyway, how would a person know when they were absoultely free from sinning? There is a snippet in my memory that Ellen G. White said if such a thing were to happen to a person the person would NOT be aware of it. Therefore...? If one thinks he is free of sin... he's Doomed...?

But being saved from our sins and not in our sins does not mean we never sin. Being saved "in sin" signifies that God does not separate the believer from his sins but that he goes on sinning AFTER accepting Christ just as he did BEFORE meeting Christ.

[Woody]

Could you provide a source for that definition John?

Or ... is it just your opinion?

[John317]

Could you provide a source for that definition John?

Or ... is it just your opinion?

The gospel when really accepted and put into practice separates from sin. The whole book of Leviticus and the whole sanctuary service teaches this. That is why Satan is working to get the church to forget those lessons.

Matthew 1: 21-- "His name shall be called Jesus [Hebrew: Yeshua-- the Lord saves], for He shall save His people FROM their sins." NOTICE IT DOES NOT SAY HE SHALL SAVE HIS PEOPLE IN THEIR SINS. There is a reason that it doesn't say that. What is the difference?

"Jesus died, not to save man in his sins, but from his sins. Man is to leave the error of his [sinful] ways, to follow the example of Christ, to take up his cross and follow Him, denying self, and obeying God at any cost." 4 T 251 (Read pp. 247-254.)

Romans 6: 1 (Amplified):

WHAT SHALL we say [to all this]? Are we to remain in sin in order that God's grace (favor and mercy) may multiply and overflow? May it never be!

Romans 6: 15--What then [are we to conclude]? Shall we sin because we live not under Law but under God's favor and mercy? Certainly not!

1 JOHN 3: 1-10-- See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him.

2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is.

3And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

4 Everyone who practices sin also practices lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness.

5 You know that He appeared in order to take away sins; and in Him there is no sin.

6 No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him.

7 Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous;

8 the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil.

9 No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

10By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother.

Steps To Christ, p. 44:

God desires that man, the crowning work of His creative power, shall reach the highest possible development. He sets before us the height of blessing to which He desires to bring us through His grace. He invites us to give ourselves to Him, that He may work His will in us. It remains for us to choose whether we will be set free from the bondage of sin, to share the glorious liberty of the sons of God.

In giving ourselves to God, we must necessarily give up all that would separate us from Him. Hence the Saviour says, "Whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple." Luke 14:33. Whatever shall draw away the heart from God must be given up. Mammon is the idol of many. The love of money, the desire for wealth, is the golden chain that binds them to Satan. Reputation and worldly honor are worshiped by another class. The life of selfish ease and freedom from responsibility is the idol of others. But these slavish bands must be broken. We cannot be half the Lord's and half the world's. We are not God's children unless we are such entirely.

There are those who profess to serve God, while they rely upon their own efforts to obey His law, to form a right character, and secure salvation. Their hearts are not moved by any deep sense of the love of Christ, but they seek to perform the duties of the Christian life as that which God requires of them in order to gain heaven. Such religion is worth nothing.

Steps To Christ, p. 61:

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption.

[LifeHiscost]

Could you provide a source for that definition John?

Or ... is it just your opinion?

But being saved from our sins and not in our sins does not mean we never sin. Being saved "in sin" signifies that God does not separate the believer from his sins but that he goes on sinning AFTER accepting Christ just as he did BEFORE meeting Christ.

"For we -- willfully sinning after the receiving the full knowledge of the truth -- no more for sins doth there remain a sacrifice," Hebrews 10:26 YLT

Regards!

[olger]

Jesus came to “save His people from their sins”(Matthew 1:21).

The first chapter in the first book of the New Testament gives us the basis for our faith. Failing to understand this makes the message of the Gospel ineffective and powerless. Jesus came to set us free from the power of sin in our lives and restore our relationship with God. “But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves to God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life” (Romans 6:22).

“Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.” We were all slaves to sin and only God could set us free not us ourselves.

Through faith in Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection we now stand declared not guilty (justified) before God (Romans 5:1-2).

If we are justified then we are also set free from sin’s power (Romans 6:12-14). The two cannot be separated but our natural minds have been taught they can. That part of us which desires evil would have us believe that we can be saved from hell yet still be prisoners to sin. This is a lie straight from the father of all lies. Such teaching is not supported by scripture yet some people in the “church” have been deceived to believe it. God’s word will expose the lost to themselves.

Jesus said “I am the way, the truth and the life.” If we find the way, we know the truth and the result is life. Romans tells us “the wages of sin is death.” If we are free from sin’s power then we have life and that life is eternal. This is why Jesus came. He came to fulfill the promise that God would redeem or buy back His people from the bondage of sin they were under. If we are free from sin’s power then a new life style is inevitable. By living a new life we prove to God and man that we have accepted the free gift God offers through Jesus Christ (James 2:17-26).

Because we no longer serve the devil, we are now free to serve God (Galatians 5:22-25) No one can serve two masters. These words strengthen a true believer but are offensive to a worldly person. The Holy Spirit convinces each one of us where we stand.

Victory, salvation and deliverance were prophesied hundreds of years before the birth of Christ. These verses give us an idea of what to expect as children of The Most High. They paint a picture of what all believers have through faith in Jesus. “In righteousness you will be established, oppression will be far from you” (Isaiah 54:14-17).

oG

[John317]

Jesus came to “save His people from their sins”(Matthew 1:21). ...If we are justified then we are also set free from sin’s power (Romans 6:12-14). The two cannot be separated but our natural minds have been taught they can. That part of us which desires evil would have us believe that we can be saved from hell yet still be prisoners to sin. This is a lie straight from the father of all lies. Such teaching is not supported by scripture yet some people in the “church” have been deceived to believe it. God’s word will expose the lost to themselves....

I liked your entire post, but the above I felt for me personally is especially good. So very important to grasp this, especially in light of so much that we hear today saying a little or even a lot of sin in the life is no big problem.

[Gerr]

Quote:

Can you post the whole article to see what he is really saying?

He saying just what I've been saying all along. Christ DIED for those sins.

Sorry, Red. I've seen too many of your snippets which you have used to prove your point, but when read in context actually prove the opposite! So, I'd rather read the article than take one sentence he said at face value.

Gerry

[Neil D]

Quote:

The Bible is an owners manual. The manual has many warnings about things that might cause harm to the product. Sin is just a general catagory for things that can cause harm to us ... the product for which the owners manual was given.

I have a problem with this....

I don't know of a owner's manual that comes with a history of the company, nor policy making decision made by the products...nor details about the Owner of all the products....

It just doesn't quite fit,..you understand...

[David Koot]

Permit me to make an appearance here. I have online friends on both sides of this discussion. I appreciate each of them, and also appreciate the fact that our friendship is not dependent upon agreeing on doctrinal points.

Without a doubt, we are not saved in our sins, but from our sins. This Hughes guy, whomever he may be, appears to be giving an inaccurate picture of the issue. Yes, God is able to deliver us from every temptation. Yes, God wants us to experience victory over every temptation. Yes, God has promised us that victory if we will cooperate with Him. Yes, we cannot continue to reject God's appeal and offer of help, and still expect to be saved in His kingdom.

That is what many might call a conservative position. At the same time, over the past few years I have discovered that 'conservatives' are short on mercy. 'Tow the line, buddy!' That seems to be their approach, too often. It is not my approach. So I'm not sure where I fit into the whole picture. But as for the core doctrinal issues, that is a different question.

Dave