CGMedley Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Many churches today stress love, forgiveness, acceptance, and tolerance. However, there's precious little discussion about church discipline. These week the Adventist Review presents a case study on this often-ignored subject. http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2008-1511&page=8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted April 19, 2008 Share Posted April 19, 2008 Excellent. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted April 19, 2008 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2008 I didn't see any reference to the pastor ever speaking in person with the offending party. I disagree with disfellowshipping someone without even speaking to her/him first. Spreading the "news" (who knows for certain that the husband wasn't fabricating this story?) to the entire church body could be actionable as libel or slander. This was hasty, in my opinion. Totally unnecessary, also, since the offending party wasn't hurting anyone but her husband -- and he had an alternative remedy available to him: divorce. Do we enter everybody's bedroom and publicly discipline them for being out of line? Are sexual sins more worthy of disfellowshiping than, say, gossip?? I would have chosen a totally different parable, if I'd been writing an article on church discipline. [How about embezzlement, for example? -- There we have obvious victims. ] Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Most excellent. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 I think that accountability is the word here instead of discipline. PS. To claim to have a power to disfellowship (remove from the church books) is to do a similar things the catholic priests do. We have no such powers... as only God is the judge. BUT it does not mean that there should not be standards and accountability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beryl Posted April 20, 2008 Share Posted April 20, 2008 Hi, fccool, There is one difference between the action of the Catholic priests and or church discipline -- the Catholics believe that their action means that the person will not go to heaven. That is not the aim of chrch discipline. The Adventist church has a number of options when it comes to discipline -- the person can be "placed under discipline" for a certain length of time, during which time they are free/ encouraged to attend church in the normal way, only cannot hold church office, or, in cases that bring the church into disrepute, they can be "disfellowshipped" -- that is, their names are removed from the church roll. HOWEVER -- unlike the Catholic church -- this does not mean that they will be removed from the heavenly roll!! Only God can remove their names from the Book of Life. In the Adventist church they are still encouraged to attend church and fellowship with the members unless something very serious (like sexual abuse of a child) has taken place. Very often this type of "discipline" encourages the person to look at what they have done, seek forgiveness, and after a suitable time, be reinstated into the church. God bless, Beryl Quote "Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."Â But He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." 2 Cor. 12:9. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 The Review also had an article a few years ago on the subject of church discipline that said church discipline is not very effective without loving relationship among the members. I think too often our churches do not have many loving relationships, and so the discipline is either impersonal or doesn't happen at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted June 22, 2008 Share Posted June 22, 2008 Hey Jean.... I think you must have missed this- Quote: We made three visits to the couple’s apartment during the next few months to see whether we could help the member experience a reconversion, and help her husband begin to understand what God’s love is really all about. When it became clear we were unsuccessful, the first elder and I talked with the other elders about the situation. otherwise, I would agree with you.... I also know Dan Serns...and I know that he is thurough in his work... I suspect that what he is dealing with is with extreme cases...as this one case also was extreme.... I also agree that for church discipline to be effective, LOTS AND LOTS of fellowship and connecting and friendships need to be encouraged. In that case, when those things happen, many times 'church discipline' is avoided altogether. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planey Posted June 28, 2008 Share Posted June 28, 2008 The Review also had an article a few years ago on the subject of church discipline that said church discipline is not very effective without loving relationship among the members. I think too often our churches do not have many loving relationships, and so the discipline is either impersonal or doesn't happen at all. I fully agree, Carol. I think that is why the stories that Shane tells of church discipline in Mexico (maybe Latin America in general?) ring true. The churches he speaks of appear to be very strong on love which allows the discipline to achieve its intended result of bringing the offender(s) back to the loving church family. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Jeannieb43 Posted July 30, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 30, 2008 I noticed in the "hard copy" of the ADVENTIST REVIEW recently a letter to the editor responding to this same article. That writer had substantially the same comment as I did: Why do we discipline members for sexual sins only? Why not discipline those having covetousness, envy, lying, etc.? It's extremely difficult for me, as a sinner myself, to stand in judgment against my brother or my sister in the church just because their offense happens to be "open." Whereas my offense may be much more devastating to the good of the membership [if I embezzle funds, or hold covetous thoughts, etc.], yet nobody ever learns of it and I still continue to sing in the church choir, or lead out in the main prayer, or pass the communion bread, etc. In other words, I just plain don't like telling anyone else he's not good enough to continue to enjoy full membership privileges along with me in "my" church. It's not my job to "police" him -- or to "purify the church." Quote Jeannie<br /><br /><br />...Change is inevitable; growth is optional.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 30, 2008 I noticed in the "hard copy" of the ADVENTIST REVIEW recently a letter to the editor responding to this same article. That writer had substantially the same comment as I did: Why do we discipline members for sexual sins only? Why not discipline those having covetousness, envy, lying, etc.? It's extremely difficult for me, as a sinner myself, to stand in judgment against my brother or my sister in the church just because their offense happens to be "open." Whereas my offense may be much more devastating to the good of the membership [if I embezzle funds, or hold covetous thoughts, etc.], yet nobody ever learns of it and I still continue to sing in the church choir, or lead out in the main prayer, or pass the communion bread, etc. In other words, I just plain don't like telling anyone else he's not good enough to continue to enjoy full membership privileges along with me in "my" church. It's not my job to "police" him -- or to "purify the church." Ellen White on "church discipline": I saw that the messengers and the church must have compassion with some, making a difference. Now the messengers of God must seek wisdom and know how to treat each individual case. Not all must be treated alike. By close examination it will be seen that individual cases differ. Some are to be borne with longer than others, but if one is living in disobedience to the commandments of God, the church must act and must separate them from them. And for other sins it will often be necessary to disfellowship souls if they continue in their sins; yet great care should be used and great patience and forbearance exercised. Manuscript Releases - Volume Nine [Nos. 664-770] (1990), page 196, paragraph 4 The word of God does not give license for one man to set up his judgment in opposition to the judgment of the church, neither is he allowed to urge his opinions against the opinions of the church. Unless there was church discipline and church governments, the church would go to fragments. They could not hold together as a body. . . . Manuscript Releases Volume Fifteen [Nos. 1136-1185] (1990), page 130, paragraph 2 The Authority of the Church The world's Redeemer has invested great power with His church. He states the rules to be applied in cases of trial with its members. After He has given explicit directions as to the course to be pursued, He says, "Verily I say unto you, whatsoever ye shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever (in church discipline) ye shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven." Thus even the heavenly authority ratifies the discipline of the church in regard to its members, when the Bible rule has been followed.The Remnant Church; Its Organization, Authority, Unity, and Triumph (1934), page 7, paragraph 4 Many do not realize the sacredness of church relationship, and are loath to submit to restraint and discipline. Their course of action shows that they exalt their own judgment above that of the united church; and they are not careful to guard themselves, lest they encourage a spirit of opposition to its voice. The Remnant Church; Its Organization, Authority, Unity, and Triumph (1934), page 10, paragraph 1 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Ellen White had a few things to say that would agree with your thoughts: Quote: "Our ministering brethren are too often imposed upon by the relation of trials in the church, and they too frequently refer to them in their discourses. They should not encourage the members of the church to complain of one another, but should set them as spies upon their own actions." 5T 96 Quote: "The church is composed of imperfect, erring men and women, who call for the continual exercise of charity and forbearance." 5T 104 Sorry .... I just happened to be reading in the 5T today and this is what I read. Good timing. Love Won Another ... Red Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote: "No one buries someone who is still alive, nor does he expel from the house someone in the last stages of illness. Rather, one waits with patience and endurance for him to get better .... Therefore I desire to be patient with all who are bought with the costly pearl." The Writings of Pilgram Marpeck" p. 354 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote: "When you see yourselves as sinners saved only by the love of your heavenly Father, you will have tender pity for others who are suffering in sin. You will no longer meet misery and repentance with jealousy and censure. When the ice of selfishness is melted from your hearts, you will be in sympathy with God, and will share His joy in the saving of the lost." COL 210 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 30, 2008 I also agree that for church discipline to be effective, LOTS AND LOTS of fellowship and connecting and friendships need to be encouraged. In that case, when those things happen, many times 'church discipline' is avoided altogether. It sounds like you would be in complete agree with the following statement, then. Let me know if I'm wrong in this assumption. "I saw that the messengers and the church must have compassion with some, making a difference. Now the messengers of God must seek wisdom and know how to treat each individual case. Not all must be treated alike. By close examination it will be seen that individual cases differ. Some are to be borne with longer than others, but if one is living in disobedience to the commandments of God, the church must act and must separate them from them. And for other sins it will often be necessary to disfellowship souls if they continue in their sins; yet great care should be used and great patience and forbearance exercised. Manuscript Releases - Volume Nine [Nos. 664-770] (1990), page 196, paragraph 4 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 30, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote: "When you see yourselves as sinners saved only by the love of your heavenly Father, you will have tender pity for others who are suffering in sin. You will no longer meet misery and repentance with jealousy and censure. When the ice of selfishness is melted from your hearts, you will be in sympathy with God, and will share His joy in the saving of the lost." COL 210 Is there a way for the church to follow that instruction and still follow the instructions given elsewhere by the same writer? Is there necessarily conflict between these two counsels to the church? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote: "It is because the disciples were erring and faulty that He washed their feet." DA 656 Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 30, 2008 Share Posted July 30, 2008 Quote: "No one has ever been reclaimed from a wrong position by censure and reproach; but many have thus been driven from Christ and led to seal their hearts against conviction" Thoughts from the Mount of Blessing p. 129 Ellen White And yes John317 ... we can abide by both sides of Ellen Whites mouth if we compromise her words. But, we must keep the following in mind: Quote: "When we are clothed with the righteousness of Christ, we shall have no relish for sin ... We may make mistakes (sin) but we will hate the sin." RH. Mar. 1890 and ... Quote: "for man looketh on the outward appearance but the Lord looketh on the heart." 1 Sam 16:7 And we must consider the study of the Wheat and the Tares which we know will both grow together until the Harvest. Quote: "Christ's servants are grieved as they see true and false believers mingled in the church. They long to do something to cleanse the church. Like the servants of the householder, they are ready to uproot the tares. But Christ says to them, "Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest." COL 71 Love WON Another ... RED Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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