Can you really be intellectually honest and

[Inga]

Can you really be intellectually honest and still believe people can 'overcome' homosexuality?

Stan, I just stumbled on this topic six months after the interview.

I think we have a communication problem when we use the word "homosexuality" without first defining it.

Most folks think of homosexuality in terms of sexual orientation, which includes sexual practices.

Most conservative Christians think in therms of homosexuality in terms of sexual practices only.

So you can see how misunderstandings can abound.

Ron is a conservative Adventist Christian, and when he writes about homosexuality, I suspect he thinks in terms of certain activities, which includes thoughts and fantasies, as well as sexual practices.

So when Ron writes that the Lord gives the power to overcome homosexuality, Ron is saying that the Lord gives the power to overcome habits of thought, fantasies and sexual practices related to a homosexual orientation.

And, come to think of it, Ron even uses "orientation" in a different sense than most folks. He writes of being "oriented" to Christ, rather than being "oriented" to homosexuality. As you can see, this is a chosen focus, rather than a physiological/psychological orientation.

Add to that the complication that causes of homosexual orientation differ from person to person, and you have a real kettle of mixed fish. Some can trace their sexual orientation back to a choice they made way back when. Most cannot.

So, yes, I believe Ron can be intellectually honest and believe that people can 'overcome'homosexuality. He is using his definition and his frame of reference.

The homosexually oriented Adventists I know (who are committed to biblical expressions of sexuality) recognize that their primary sexual orientation (towards the same gender) will always be a part of them. It is possible to change enough that the orientation recedes into the background -- onto the back burner, so to speak, where it belongs. (Hey, for most folks, sex isn't the primary focus in life, though some psychologists would have us think that's so for men in general.

I believe some gay people (homosexually oriented people) can change enough to be happy in a heterosexual marriage. Ron Woolsey is clearly one of them, and I know of a number of others who are in marriages that appear to be happier than the average heterosexual marriage.

(Btw, Ron has a huge asset in his wife, Claudia who waited to marry him all through the time he spent in the gay world. She sees her marriage to him as a dream come true! And she's a wonderful, warm Christian woman. Any man should be happy married to such a woman!)

During the last couple years I've observed a young man (late 30's, early 40's .. I forget) change dramatically. When he came to us (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GLOWfriends/) he was fresh out of a long-term gay relationship. He was trying to get back in touch with his spiritual roots, the Adventist church. He was afraid to go to church. He didn't even want to hear about the possibility of changing enough to be interested in women. (The thought was too gross, I suppose. )

It is now just about two years later. Bob (not his real name) is now heavily involved in his local church, after coming out to them nearly a year and a half ago. He's giving Bible studies. He's teaching Sabbath school, and, of course, he's involved in the music of the church. He's living a life fuller than he could have imagined a couple of years ago when he was mourning all he was giving up in the gay life. And, most surprising of all, he confided to me that he's beginning to be attracted to some women in a way he never was before. No, he's not fallen "in love" with any woman, but he says, "You never know ..."

How did the change come about? Not by any kind of therapy -- reparative, ex-gay ministry or other. Instead, Bob dedicated himself fully and whole-heartedly to the service of the Lord, holding nothing back - the kind of dedication few are willing to engage in. The changes came as a 'side benefit,' so to speak --not because they were actively sought.

And just a couple days ago I got a call from a man who is experiencing the very same kind of change ...

Don't tell me it doesn't happen.

Now my personal belief:

For the record, I believe that, for most homosexuals, their orientation has a biological component, and we can't change the biology. However, from the gay people I have known, I conclude that a homosexual orientation may largely recede into the background, whether they marry or not. This comes as a result of the personal choice to focus on Christ and His service.

However, sexual temptatios will come back in full force in times of stress or trauma. For those who believe that God changed them into heterosexuals, this comes as a tremendous disappointment. They may think that God left them, no longer loves, them, etc. Or they may believe that they failed God, etc. etc.

For those who recognize that their homosexual orientation is essentially just part of a sinful orientation which we all have, it's not nearly as crushing. They recognize that Satan is trying to "get them," just as he tries to "get" the rest of us through our own particular weaknesses.

Whew! I'd better get off my soap box. If you really want to read more, you can always go to our website, http://www.glow.cc/

[Stan]

Am so sorry you were not here for the live interview...

[cricket]

Excellent post, Inga.

[Gail]

Always good to see you again, Inga!

[Inga]

Thank you, Stan, for resurrecting my post out of the bit bucket.

And thank you, Cricket and Gail, for your remarks. It's nice to pop in now & then and see some old friends. (But I'm having trouble trying to get one of those delightful smilies into my email.)

I suppose I should have known better than to post here, and I'd be perfectly happy if my post & the replies were moved elsewhere. I was just so annoyed when it just disappeared into oblivion! And then I discovered that I shouldn't have posted here!!

Where would be the appropriate place to respond?

Inga

[Inga]

Explanation: I originally attempted to post in the "Interviews" section, and it seemed that my post disappeared into the bit bucket. Stan kindly resurrected it (apparently it went to a moderator queue), but it was still buried in the interview section. Upon my request, he moved it out of that section, and that's why it is here in the Townhall.

Thank you, Stan.

[cricket]

LOL! Inga, when I posted my response to you earlier I thought the same thing: Where on earth did my post go??!? But then, I realized that it was in the interviews section and I think that all posts and questions in the interview section go through a moderator first--nothing personal, just a "safety" measure to keep the interviewee safe® than in the ordinary posting sections.

[Gail]

I suppose I should have known better than to post here, and I'd be perfectly happy if my post & the replies were moved elsewhere. I was just so annoyed when it just disappeared into oblivion! And then I discovered that I shouldn't have posted here!!

Oh, don't be sorry! I liked your response! As Stan mentioned, though, it would have been better had you been here for the interview!

[Bravus]

Just one caveat: anyone who is in this situation - gay orientation, being straight with God's grace and going into marriage - please tell your prospective spouse well before the wedding who you are and what's going on with you. I've had close friends where this was not done, and that deception became the seed of the destruction of the marriage.

[Dr. Shane]

I agree with that Bravus. I worked with a gay outreach ministry for three years in college and none of the Christian gay men that had left the lifestyle would have ever considered hiding something like that from a future wife. However, that said, a lot of gays never marry. Marrying a woman isn't the goal or doesn't somehow establish a milestone in a gay's Christian walk away from the lifestyle.

[cricket]

Bravus, that's assuming one knows one's orientation before marriage. Lots of folk aren't really sure "who" they are (emotionally, sexually, physically, intellectually and so on and so forth) until well into a marriage.

[Bravus]

Oh, absolutely. It's tragic, but I do think some people's orientation does change later in life, after they're married, and it's tough for everyone involved. But I was specifically talking about the situation here, with people who have been actively gay and repent of that and change and end up marrying.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

do think some people's orientation does change later in life, after they're married

If someone thinks their orientation is changing, the sooner they get help the easier it is to treat. That is something to keep in mind. There are Christian counselors that do a good job of dealing with this. Many gay-exit ministries also help those that are only having thoughts of experimenting with the lifestyle.

[olger]

So far in my studies, every homosexual case has had an emotional/spiritual headwaters, and Jesus the Christ can heal & resolve that root cause. Then they are free to do His will (and His will is clearly NOT homosexual).

God is in the business of changing lives.

Rejoice always,

oG

[nishaun]

Just a thought...

Because sex or lust should not be the main goal or trigger of any relationship, homosexual culture and theology will always be at odds with Christian culture and theology. This is the mistake that many churches that won't clearly speak out against homosexuality make. Modern society is fastly accepting homosexuals because they are starting to realize that gays are no different from themselves. But as Christians we have to understand that we are or we should be different from gays in the ways, means, and reasons for defining our relationships.

Homosexuals have to understand if they are interested in Jesus' name they will have to do what we all have done or should have done. We all have to first admit we are in trouble and need to be saved. Therefore homosexual theology can't merge with Christian theology because gays can't admit that being gay is wrong. Gays don't have the right to declare their sin "safe".

The Christian God has certain preached views of men, women, fatherhood, motherhood, sex, love and relationship. Just remember according to God love is a choice, that is why God states though shall love your neighbors. Gays do not believe they can choose to be gay, therefore gays do not know love and they must be informed.

Love isn't about how people make you feel and what they can do for you. If the homosexual community can't accept this then they need not apply to Christianity. There are people all over there world whether Chinese or Muslims who would be happy to hear about Jesus. Should Christians change their theology to protect gays? The greatest definition of love may be to adopt a child and choose to love them but homosexuals claim their emotional attachments are not choices. Then why do they think they can choose to love adopted children or are they only using these children to make their love seem real. That is truly disgusting to use children the strengthen your sin.

[Jeannieb43]

I do think some people's orientation does change later in life, after they're married, and it's tough for everyone involved.

Is it that a person's orientation changes, later in life, after he's married? Or is it rather that the person stops trying to sublimate those homosexual urges which have been with him all his adult life?

It's a shame when a man marries a woman hoping this will change him into being heterosexual - and later gives up trying. This breaks up a family, shatters a dream held by the poor spouse, and just generally messes up everything. It's better if one is homosexual to just come out and admit it.

BTW, I know several homosexual partners who I'm sure have "settled in" to having a celibate relationship, now in their older years together. [Just as some hetero couples have done in their retirement years, I suspect.] This doesn't prevent the partners from loving and caring deeply for each other.

[LifeHiscost]

BTW, I know several homosexual partners who I'm sure have "settled in" to having a celibate relationship, now in their older years together. [Just as some hetero couples have done in their retirement years, I suspect.] This doesn't prevent the partners from loving and caring deeply for each other.

Having grown up in a generation where homosexuality was considered a sin so gross, very seldom was it ever mentioned as possibly existing in any present company, your post adds a dimension of compassion most often missed by the part of our society that sees themselves as having no gross sinfulness.

While it is true there are many Christians delivered from even the beginning

of the more gross sins, this does not mean that any are good people, in the absolute sense of godliness. It does mean any who have been delivered from the "get-go" have a great deal to be thankful for re: God's intervention in their life before the prince of the power of darkness had more than limited "success" in leading them astray.

"They have all turned aside,They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one." Psalm 14:3 NKJV

"And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God" Matthew 19:17 KJV

The danger of the homosexual is that he/she believe their behavior or mindset is acceptable irregardless of what the Word says, or believe that God is so impotent He cannot deliver from such behaviors or mindsets, something that is a danger to any who cling to unacceptable conduct as related by the Word.

"For this reason God gave them up to vile passions. For even their women exchanged the natural use for what is against nature. Likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust for one another, men with men committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the penalty of their error which was due.

And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a debased mind, to do those things which are not fitting" Romans 1:26-28 NKJV

As for deliverance:

"Behold, I am the LORD, the God of all flesh. Is there anything too hard for Me?" Jeremiah 32:27 NKJV

Regards!

[nishaun]

Amen.

Many Christians ignore the fact that many homosexuals are NOT willing to accept that the lifestyle is a sin, this would be a prerequisite for conversion.

Would the churches that accept homosexual ministers, etc also accept ministers that intentionally have children out of wedlock or that are known to cheat on their wives. What is so acceptable about homosexuality that people don't want to speak out against it.

[olger]

Good rhetorical questions, Nish. Perhaps the answer to modern "acceptance" is the militant demand from the gay agenda for acceptance. I believe that for many people, just accepting it is easier than fighting/or resisting the sin. Many in our society lack the ethical energy to resist such sins.