Ellen White a false prophet?!?!

[Robert]

Satan doesn't care what reason people think up for either ignoring or rejecting Ellen White's writings, as long as they don't read or obey what she says.

This is the language used by cults.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Satan doesn't care what reason people think up for either ignoring or rejecting Ellen White's writings, as long as they don't read or obey what she says.

This is the language used by cults.

One swallow a summer does not make.

[cardw]

I think these anti Ellen White sites overstate their case. Up front I want to say that I no longer believe that Ellen White was any kind of prophet, false or otherwise. One sign should be the great amount of mental gymnastics required to keep her a prophet.

My concern with Ellen White is that when she is considered an inspired authority and when people take her seriously, then the end result is often what we see with the folks who formed Strong City.

Strong City cult information and videos

Wayne Bent is claiming to be the Son of God in the form of Michael the archangel and he uses some of the same types of "proofs" for his claims that I see brought forward for Ellen White.

The people in Strong City read in Ellen White that the people of god would form perfect characters before Jesus came and would be required to stand before God without a mediator. I was also taught this growing up and I know there are still those who take this seriously. They looked at the current Adventist church and concluded that it had gone through the early rain and there was a separation of the true Adventists going on as Ellen White talked about and they decided that they needed to go into the desert to form perfect characters in preparation for the coming of Jesus.

Now before any of you post that Ellen White did not endorse many of the things being practiced there, I will agree. My point is that Ellen White is shame based and because most Adventists who believe in her don't look at this, these kinds of splinter groups will keep forming cultic and harmful communities much like Strong City. I get literature all the time from independent ministries that have problems with the Church Manual and all kinds of nonsense they feel Ellen White is telling us today and they have plenty of quotes to back it up because she talks about all kinds of stuff everyone is doing wrong.

Just because she says some things that are good doesn't negate all the harmful shame based nagging contained in the Testimonies and the various compilations made under her instruction. What most people don't realize is that the SDA church was a cultic organization that taught paranoia, fear, and shame as spirituality. I think most Christian churches do that, but that is another topic. Today, fortunately, the church has less emphasis on her writings and has edited out a lot of the really crazy stuff. I don't think this is honest, but it does limit the exposure.

If you study what she claims in her own writings about her visions on the shut door, you will see direct contradictions and a whole lot of spin. What her apologists don't tell you is that, much like the Strong City cult, early Adventists continued to set dates for Christ's coming until 1851 with visions to support ideas about who should be witnessed to. They thought, just as the Strong City group, that the former rain had fallen and the latter rain was soon to be poured out.

The reason you don't see good apologetics for the issues brought out by these sites is that there is none. Most Ellen White apologetics generalize the meaning of prophet to keep her barely within the confines of a loose definition and explain away her more glaring stumbles as simply her humanity. Well, that would allow just about anyone to be a prophet.

[Guest truthseeker007]

Hey Richard i am struggling with the same questions as you do. I am very sceptic about Ellen White too but i don t know an alternative church that keeps the commandments of God and holds on to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Do you know any other biblical church that has these components?if not, would it be wise to collect all the biblical truths and start a new movement?

[Robert]

i don t know an alternative church that keeps the commandments of God and holds on to the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The remnant doesn't exist yet....

The remnant (click here)

A quote from the above material:

I believe the statement found in the [sDA publication] Insight Magazine, 13 March 1979, represents a more accurate interpretation of this text than our traditional interpretation. Here is what it says:

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.”

[Neil D]

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.”

As to the first movement, the fact that our North American SDA children who leave is not concidered as "many SDAs" leaving the church...?

As to the 2nd movement, a large number of people joining the church in the non-North America churches can not be considered "a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church" ???

Ok, I am just wondering what is meant here.......

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.”

As to the first movement, the fact that our North American SDA children who leave is not concidered as "many SDAs" leaving the church...?

No, Jack is not touching that issue. The context is when the gospel is fully restored many SDA will reject it and join Babylon (those preaching what Paul terms "another gospel").

The larger number accepting the gospel will join those expounding it. I don't believe this final movement will be under the name "SDA". If it is it won't last long because the legalists (those opposed to the truth as it is "in Christ") will seek, through the powers that be, to silence those presenting the gospel.

Rob

[Woody]

There is a loud cry to "silence those presenting the gospel". I agree with you Robert. But the good new is ... I think that cry is turning more to a whimper. Those accepting the true gospel are now being accepted more and more.

[Neil D]

The larger number accepting the gospel will join those expounding it. I don't believe this final movement will be under the name "SDA". If it is it won't last long because the legalists (those opposed to the truth as it is "in Christ") will seek, through the powers that be, to silence those presenting the gospel.

Rob

Ok, I am confused....If the larger number of SDA are leaving the church due to the gospel, how can the remaining pro-gospel people change the name of the church if those [to use your term] "Legalist" be left in the church?

They are there, and we have bablyon, or they are not, and we have the remenant...Which is it, Robert?

[Woody]

Quote:

"The church is composed of imperfect, erring men and women, who call for the continual exercise of charity and forbearance. But there has been a long period of general lukewarmness; a worldly spirit coming into the church has been followed by alienation, faultfinding, malice, strife, and iniquity." 5T 104

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The larger number accepting the gospel will join those expounding it. I don't believe this final movement will be under the name "SDA". If it is it won't last long because the legalists (those opposed to the truth as it is "in Christ") will seek, through the powers that be, to silence those presenting the gospel.

Rob

Ok, I am confused....If the larger number of SDA are leaving the church due to the gospel, how can the remaining pro-gospel people change the name of the church if those [to use your term] "Legalist" be left in the church?

They are there, and we have bablyon, or they are not, and we have the remenant...Which is it, Robert?

The gospel is being restored. IT has yet to be fully restored.

WHen it does there are many who will reject it as heresy. These will abandon the church and become its enemies. The union of those preaching the gospel and those who accept it will compose the remnant. Until then there's no remnant.

[Robert]

Quote:

"The church is composed of imperfect, erring men and women, who call for the continual exercise of charity and forbearance. But there has been a long period of general lukewarmness; a worldly spirit coming into the church has been followed by alienation, faultfinding, malice, strife, and iniquity." 5T 104

BC- OHC

-TI- Our High Calling

-CN- 343

-CT- The Rags of Self-Righteousness

-PR- 03

-PG- 349

"Many are Laodiceans, living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness."

Now compare this to the below statement:

-BC- 1MR

-TI- Manuscript Releases Volume One

-CN- 81

-CT- God's Rebuke to Laodicea

-PR- 03

-PG- 360

"The message to the Laodiceans is applicable to Seventh-day Adventists who have had great light and have not walked in the light."

What does she mean by "have not walked in the light"?

-BC- 3SM

-TI- Selected Messages Book 3

-CN- 21

-CT- Ellen G. White Reports on the Minneapolis Conference

-PR- 01

-PG- 188

"The doctrine of grace and salvation through Jesus Christ is a mystery to a large share of those whose names are upon the church books. If Christ were upon the earth speaking to His people, He would reproach them for their slowness of comprehension. He would say to the slow and uncomprehending, “I have left in your possession truths which concern your salvation, of which you do not suspect the value.”

What greater deception can come upon human minds than confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness. The testimony, so cutting and severe, cannot be a mistake, for it is the True Witness who speaks, and His testimony must be correct. [3T, 252]

[Robert]

I do believe EGW has some spiritual eyesight. Let's look at some statements concerning the SDA people:

“I {EGW} asked the meaning of the shaking [the falling away] I had seen [in vision?], and was shown that it [the shaking] would be caused by the straight testimony called forth by the counsel of the True Witness to the Laodiceans .….They will rise up against it, and this will cause a shaking among God's people.”--1T 181 (1857).

Okay, what is “the straight testimony” from “the true witness” [Christ] to “the Laodiceans”? I’ll give you EGW and then the Bible:

Now I just quoted this, but here it is again:

"Many are Laodiceans , living in a spiritual self-deception. [in what way?] They clothe themselves in the garments of their own righteousness, imagining themselves to be rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing, when they need daily to learn of Jesus, His meekness and lowliness." [OHC 349]

Now Bible:

You [Laodiceans] say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18 I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear [the robes of Christ’s righteousness], so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19 Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent [context: self-righteousness].

So Laodicea’s problem is blindness…they do not see that in God’s eyes their righteousness is filthy rags in comparison to His love. “The true witness” call is to repentance from self-righteousness so as to be clothed with Christ’s righteousness.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Ok, I am confused....If the larger number of SDA are leaving the church due to the gospel, how can the remaining pro-gospel people change the name of the church if those [to use your term] "Legalist" be left in the church?

They are there, and we have bablyon, or they are not, and we have the remenant...Which is it, Robert?

The gospel is being restored. IT has yet to be fully restored.

WHen it does there are many who will reject it as heresy. These will abandon the church and become its enemies. The union of those preaching the gospel and those who accept it will compose the remnant. Until then there's no remnant.

Ok, so at what point is the Gospel considered "restored"? Isn't that related to the understanding of the Gospel itself, and independant of whether the church accepts it? How can the Gospel be understood to be restored when a majority rejects the understanding of it? Is not the 'Gospel restored' more an individual acceptance than the collective acceptance?

Just askin' questions....I'm curious...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The gospel is being restored. IT has yet to be fully restored.

WHen it does there are many who will reject it as heresy. These will abandon the church and become its enemies. The union of those preaching the gospel and those who accept it will compose the remnant. Until then there's no remnant.

Ok, so at what point is the Gospel considered "restored"? Isn't that related to the understanding of the Gospel itself, and independant of whether the church accepts it? How can the Gospel be understood to be restored when a majority rejects the understanding of it?

Just askin' questions....I'm curious...

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Ok, so at what point is the Gospel considered "restored"? Isn't that related to the understanding of the Gospel itself, and independant of whether the church accepts it? How can the Gospel be understood to be restored when a majority rejects the understanding of it?

Just askin' questions....I'm curious...

God knows...I don't. However, it will be backed with the power of the HS (like at Pentecost).

[cardw]

Quote:

Hey Richard i am struggling with the same questions as you do. I am very sceptic about Ellen White too but i don t know an alternative church that keeps the commandments of God and holds on to the testimony of Jesus Christ. Do you know any other biblical church that has these components?if not, would it be wise to collect all the biblical truths and start a new movement?

I am more concerned with truth in general. My requirement for truth is a demonstration of its ability to do what it claims. I don't think we need any more movements. I'm not that arrogant to think that I know what every one else needs.

I am more interested in tools to help guide each person to their own understanding of what they need. I don't believe that each of us has to agree or needs to understand the same thing. I believe in an internal guide that is unique to each of us.

For me, the use of reason and empathy goes a long way in guiding how to be with each other and how to form our societies. You don't need a movement or a religion to do that.

[Robert]

And we are to have tongues of fire over our heads???

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Quote:

The gospel is not what Christ does in you, but how Christ legally & ethically saved you in His holy history.

By who's rules?

God's rules! Ez 18:20 "The soul who sins is the one who must die."

According to the justice of God's law the sinner must die! If God bypasses His own law He becomes a hypocrite. Clearly the law must be fulfilled....

Did I...did you die in the humanity of Christ? What does the Bible say concerning our death "in Christ"?

Romans 6:6 "our old life was crucified with Him [Christ], that our body of sin might be done away with...."

Romans 7:4 You also were made to die to the Law [it demanded your death] in the body of Christ....6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

2 Cor 15:4 For the love of Christ controls us, having concluded this, that one died for all, therefore all died....

BTW, you are not a sinner when you outwardly sin (compare to Ps 51:5), you were made a sinner in the humanity of Adam:

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's fall] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's fulfillment of the law] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Rob

[John317]

.... i don t know an alternative church that keeps the commandments of God and holds on to the testimony of Jesus Christ. ...

What is your perception of what constitutes "the testimony of Jesus Christ"?

[John317]

I believe the statement found in the [sDA publication] Insight Magazine, 13 March 1979, represents a more accurate interpretation of this text than our traditional interpretation. Here is what it says:

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.”

It isn't something that is far off in the future. It is in the process of happening now. Ellen White makes this very clear by her use of the words, "remnant people." Of course there will be changes that occur among this "remnant," but from the time of the giving of the Third Angels Message, God has been raising up a "remnant" people for these last days. In fact, God has had a "remnant" people since Old Testament times.

Study in the Comprehensive Index the way Ellen White uses the term. It is used in EW 119 to refer to early Adventist believers before the official formation of the SDA church. The "remnant" is used of Seventh-day Adventists in 3 BC 1138; 2 SM 384, 385; 8 T 24, etc.

See also pp. 190, 191 of Seventh-day Adventists Believe (2005), second edition.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I believe the statement found in the [sDA publication] Insight Magazine, 13 March 1979, represents a more accurate interpretation of this text than our traditional interpretation. Here is what it says:

“Technically, two movements must occur before God will have a remnant.... First, many SDAs will decide to leave the church and will join Babylon (ref. Great Controversy, page 608).... Second, a great number of people who are not now SDAs will be convinced that God is truthfully perceived by this church, and will join (ref. Great Controversy, page 390). This blending of God’s friends at the end time is what will make up the remnant.”

It isn't something that is far off in the future. It is in the process of happening now. Ellen White makes this very clear by her use of the words, "remnant people." Of course there will be changes that occur among this "remnant," but from the time of the giving of the Third Angels Message, God has been raising up a "remnant" people for these last days. In fact, God has had a "remnant" people since Old Testament times.

Study in the Comprehensive Index the way Ellen White uses the term. It is used in EW 119 to refer to early Adventist believers before the official formation of the SDA church. The "remnant" is used of Seventh-day Adventists in 3 BC 1138; 2 SM 384, 385; 8 T 24, etc.

See also pp. 190, 191 of Seventh-day Adventists Believe (2005), second edition.

I don't care what EGW states, the Bible is clear.* The SDA isn't the remnant. No church...no denomination is. It is wishful thinking at best. In fact it's bragging.

[Robert]

Study in the Comprehensive Index the way Ellen White uses the term. It is used in EW 119 to refer to early Adventist believers before the official formation of the SDA church. The "remnant" is used of Seventh-day Adventists in 3 BC 1138; 2 SM 384, 385; 8 T 24, etc.

See also pp. 190, 191 of Seventh-day Adventists Believe (2005), second edition.

Here's Jack:

In this study, our attention will be on the Remnant and we will begin with the primary meaning of the word, especially as it is used in the New Testament. Two texts that clearly reveal what the Bible means by the word REMNANT are both found in my favorite book, Romans:

Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the Israelites be like the sand by the sea, only the remnant will be saved....” [Rom. 9:27]

I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don’t you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah — how he appealed to God against Israel: “Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me”? And what was God’s answer to him? “I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. [Rom. 11:1-6]

These are those who remain faithful to God in spite of persecution.

When the Bible applies this word remnant to the last generation of Christians, it is talking about those who will endure the great tribulation or the time of trouble I spoke about in our last study: a people whose faith does not falter even though they feel forsaken by God as Christ did at the cross. In other words, these believers will manifest the faith of Jesus and, therefore, vindicate the power of the gospel, which is able to totally delivered us from the problem of self, the fundamental principle of sin.

Having establish this fact, we must now consider how this word remnant is used in Revelation 12:17:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring [or “remnant,” in the King James Version] — those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [Rev. 12:17]

Here we immediately face a problem. Normally, we have applied this word remnant to refer to the Seventh-day Adventist church. However, the Greek word John used does not refer to a church or a denomination, but rather a special people that are a part of the church, those who have reached maturity (which I believe are the 144,000, our next study).

Let me explain. The Greek word normally used in the New Testament to describe the remnant is either leimma or hupoleimma. These are the two words Paul used in the two texts we read from Romans. But the word John used in Rev. 12:17 is hoi loipoi, which really means “the rest of her seed.” This is how the word is translated in most of the translations, except the King James Version. The Revised Standard Version, the New International Version, and the New American Standard Bible accurately translate this word as “the rest of the offspring.”

In Revelation 12:7-17 we have a overall description of the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

In verses 7-9, the war between Christ and Satan is described as it took place in heaven and how Satan and his angels were defeated and cast out of heaven:

And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Stan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. [Rev. 12:7-9]

Then in verses 10-16 we have a description of this controversy as it continues on earth between Satan and the church, especially after the cross when Christ redeemed the world from Satan’s hands:

Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” When the dragon saw that he had been hurled to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach. Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.. [Revelation 12:10-16]

First Satan tried to destroy the church by persecution and then by infiltrating it and corrupting the gospel.

However, before the end comes, Jesus predicted that the gospel of His kingdom will be fully restored and proclaimed [Matt. 24:14]. As a result, God will produce a people who will experience the full power of the everlasting gospel and who will fully reflect Christ. This is the whole purpose of the three angels’ message:

This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus. [Rev. 14:12].

When this happens, Revelation 12:17 will become a reality:

Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring — those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus. [Rev. 12:17]

[Kountzer]

Personally I believe in the SDA church and what it teaches. I believe EG White was a prophetess. The term Remnant doesn't offend me. I think it is accurate and on point. If this church is not the true church show me one better.

If I am wrong on this, then I'll go down as wrong. I truely don't think that is the case though.

~Kountzer~

[Bravus]

The point that's being made is not that the SDA denomination is wrong, but that the remnant is not a denomination, it's a group made up of individuals. It will have some overlap with various Christian denominations, and probably more with some than others, but to identify a particular denomination as *being* the remnant is incorrect, I believe.