Hell -- Does the Adventist Church Get it Right?

[melvin mccarty]

If the whole purpose of the so-called Great Controvesary is some kind of a demonstration can anyone explain where are those beings who are so stupid they have not caught on yet. Seems that even humans have more brains than that! mel

[John317]

Again millions of people have never rebelled at all but never accepted either. They simply never became involved for one reason or another. I believe that God does have a responsibility to people who have been placed here with no choice in the matter at all and subjected to "temptation" by a guy named satan. Does the Adventist church get it right? Seems the record is not all that great. mel

You misunderstand "rebellion". We're talking from God's viewpoint which is the only viewpoint that matters.

"Right" is the Bible's viewpoint, not our subjective feelings about it. I know people who think having sex with a couch or a pillow is perfectly fine. That is how they "feel." Our feelings are no guide. We're fallen and can't know the way except through revelation and the Holy Spirit. If I went by feelings, I would be living as a gay man right now. Why am I not, then? Because the Bible tells me it is wrong. It is rebellion.

It doesn't matter that most gays don't think of it as rebellion. Living our way when it is contrary to God's way is rebellion, whether we realize it or not. It is disobeying Him, rejecting His government. It doesn't matter that I didn't feel it was wrong myself when I was living that way. Of course I didn't feel it was wrong. It was fun and I loved it. I felt fulfilled. But it was a lie.

Sin is like insanity, a spiritual sickness. It disorients us about reality. The Bible shows us reality about ourselves and about God.

[John317]

If the whole purpose of the so-called Great Controvesary is some kind of a demonstration can anyone explain where are those beings who are so stupid they have not caught on yet. Seems that even humans have more brains than that! mel

Take a look around you. Open any newspaper or look at any news program or almost any film. It is obvious that there are still many people who have not sided with God. I know quite a few who have deliberately sided with Satan and against God. But there are many, too, who have not made up their minds one way or the other.

There are gray areas that they don't see yet. Those are the ones that God is waiting for to make up their minds. Our job as Christians is to help bring the picture into greater focus. For instance, the whole issue of the gospel and Christ's dying for us because of how terrible sin is. Lots of people can't see that. They're not even convinced that sin exists, let alone that it is bad. Also the issue regarding Sabbath and true worship of the Creator God. These are wonderful truths that many in the world are hungry for. Most won't accept them, of course, but many do. Tens of thousands are being converted every day.

[fccool]

This skit, although gets the creation account wrong , is a great example of what John is trying to say imo...

[oldsailor29]

Hell is the presence of God.

[olger]

Methinks you possibly been out on the water too long, lubber.

regards,

oG

[Dr. Shane]

I think that is - hell is the absence of God.

[John317]

Again millions of people have never rebelled ....

I think you misunderstand the meaning of "rebel." It means to go your own way rather than God's way. All humans, except Christ, have done that. People do that until they are truly converted, at which time they turn and begin to say "yes" to God.

To "rebel" in the biblical sense does not require a conscious choice.

[oldsailor29]

I think that is - hell is the absence of God.

yup, you are correct. In another sense, when we are speaking of death, hell is the absence of God. But when we are speaking of discomfort a sinner suffers for being a sinner, that would be the presence of God. In death there is relatively no discomfort. It is when the dead sinner is awakened that he suffers the discomfort of the presence of God. And the answer for sinners is repentance.

[oldsailor29]

I think that is - hell is the absence of God.

A good review of what things would be like in the absence of God is the book of "Ecclesiastes." "Without God" would be an excellent subtitle.

[7daysadventist]

I see different faiths not agreeing on the topic of Hell. Some say a loving God would not have anyone suffering eternally. That is, God would never send anyone (except the devil and his fallen angels) to such a terrible place. Others take the stand that there is a hell right now that people go to when they die as surely as they believe the same about Heaven. That is, a loved one goes directly to heaven upon death.

For as long as I can remember, the SDA stance on this issue is that the physical hell is yet to come as per the book of Revelation.

[olger]

I believe so.

G

[BobRyan]

Does the Adventist Church hold a biblically accurate interpretation of Hellfire and brimstone. Read this week’s issue of the Adventist Review to find out.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2008-1515&page=14

[BobRyan]

Rev 14:10 Hell takes place "IN the PRESENCE of the Lamb and of his angels" Rev 14:10 -- it is the second death, the lake of fire.

in Christ,

Bob

[Kevin H]

Just to keep up with current studies, there is another view on the state of the dead that may be alluded to in other views. This is the idea that the dead go to sheol, or the rhelm of the dead. That the ancient world saw the universe as an egg shape universe with the dome of the heavens above, at the far north was, in Paganism, where all reality met and came together and was seen as the most high god, and for the Hebrews it was the point where the infinite, Personal, Personality called God broke through from infinity into the world of time and space and had his throne of power.

Then there were the stars around this dome, and down to the earth that sat on the waters and chaos rulled the waters under the earth. Where earth had a holy mountain that reflected what was happening in the heavenly, there the temple would be. Then there was the underworld, the rhelm of the dead where the dead had no body to enjoy life with and were thus not living. There was nothing to do there but be in repose, too weak to do anything except to sleep, maybe sometimes miss the things they were able to do with a body, sometimes do some self examination, occasionally when a powerful figure died to muster what little they were able to to taunt the person on how they have become as weak as everyone else in Sheol, with the person who thought he was so great on earth being unable to do anything physical. But otherwise it was nothing to do but be weak and in repose and wait to be delivered from Sheol where they can again enjoy a body. The one execption to this pattern is when Jesus comes to Sheol he does something very physical, he is able to preach to them showing that Sheol and death have no power over him. He can preach in Sheol as well as if he was alive in a body.

Now I am NOT advacating this as truth. I am only summerising how some texts can be interpeted (get a concordance and do a study on Sheol). Now for my understanding, I see the idea of being in repose as close as the texts could bet to unconsciousness and thus I infer unconsciousness into the text. and I see the texts that has the dead doing some self examination and missing the body as poeticly talking about what the dead cannot do, and the texts about those in Sheol taunting those great people as coming down as poeticly pointing out how they can't take it with them, and thus the text about Jesus preaching in sheol as continuing this poetic application to indicate that death had no power over Jesus. But there are some who have studied these texts and say that Seventh-day Adventists are right in that they realize that we are not going to heaven or hell before death, but that we are wrong in making people a little more unconscience than the Bible does, that there is a third option that we are close to but not quite there.

As for me, I am a traditional soul sleep Adventist. But there is this additional view out there that we should keep in our minds as we study and grow.

Now

[Kevin H]

Ok, I shared another view of death that I'm not comfortable with, but wanted to let you know exists. I'd like to get to what I actually believe about hell fire.

There are many posts here where you can read what I've written in more detail. I just got home from work about a half hour ago and need to wake up in 4 hours if I want to make it to Sabbath school, so I need to be fast here.

The problem with hell fire is that we do not understand the beauty of Jesus. Jesus is our deepest and most powerful desire. Now he is not out only desire, there is also the disposition to think we are for ourselves by making less of the outside world. That in us that wants to esteam ourselves more highly than others. And while this is a weaker desire, it is the one that is too often in power in people's lives. But because it is in power does not mean it is the most powerful, just as one despot making slaves of a group of people does not mean that the group, if it should join together and rebell would not be far more powerful than the despot, but that the despot is never the less the one who they are alowing to be in power over them.

With us we are constantly making choices which puts either goes mostly towards being like and with Jesus, or going mostly towards being for ourselves by making less of the outside world. Now even in our best there are tants of selfishness and even in our worst there are taints of wanting to love the world as Jesus has loved it. But one or the other of these attitudes becomes the characteristic tendency of our life.

When Jesus comes, we are all going to be overwhelmed by his purety, and see our selfishness in contrast and we, all of us living to see him come will cry out "Who shall be able to stand?" and the angels stop their singing, there is a moment of horrible silence. Then Jesus says (sings?) "My grace is sufficient for you!!!" and the angels sing a note higher. But among people there are two responses. One group hears the words "My grace is sufficient for you" and says "This is our God we have waited for him and he will save us!" and the disposition to think that they are for themselves by making less of the outside world is destoyed and they only have the one desire, to be like and with Jesus!

The other group heard the worlds of Jesus. Jesus himself told them that his grace was sufficient for them. Jesus did not say "MMMM, my grace is sufficient for some of you but not others, so let me see if you are one who my grace is sufficient for or not" but Jesus told them that his grace was sufficient for them. But they refused to believe him and they respond to "My grace is sufficient for you" by running to the rocks and say "Fall on us and hide us from the one who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the lamb." How wrathful is a lamb? Do you expect to turn on CNN or Fox and hear "Lamb escapes from zoo, terrorizes city?" The lost have no more need to fear Jesus than they do a little lamb, however they are absolutely horrified and they believe that his words "My grace is sufficient for you" is a lie.

The lost are destroyed by the brightness of his coming. We all agree on this point at the second coming. We differ on the third coming where we either continue this theam of the pressense of God doing the killing of the wicked, or that God needs to use something else to kill them.

This inconsistancy in our thought brings about a lot of misunderstandings of what is being said. There is a school of thought that if God does not use the same substance that we get when we light a match, that we must picture God as doing nothing and simply being passive as the wicked receive the natural results, then they prove by the Bible that God is not passive but active. Thus they set up a straw man that they knock down and think that they are therefore right.

At the end of time we see God/Jesus in all glory, all beauty, all love. God's love is not a passive sticky sweet emotional "Let's all sing Koombieya and give each other a group hug" but it is a power that calls out our best. When the prophets first saw God in vision they were so overwhelmed by this that they felt like they were being burned alive. Moses was only able to see the back of God as seeing the front would have killed him, and even after seeing the back of God he glowed so that he needed the viel. But as time went by the prophets found that they could not only survive this glory but came to thrive in this fire and where they hated being out of this fire.

What the wicked see is what Moses was spared from seeing, God in full glory. What would have killed Moses at that time, today is to Moses his life and ulatamate thrill. To the saved it will be our ultamate thrill. We are going to find that we will not only survive but that we will thrive in that fire. However, as when Jesus was on the earth, some longed to be with him, others wanted to get rid of him. We find the same two classes at the end, but there is no place to get away from God at the end.

While the saved had the disposition to think they were for themselves by making less of the outside world destroyed at the second coming, and only have the desire to be like and with Jesus. The Lost still have the two desires fighting with in them. and they have choosed to become the slaves of the dispostion to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world. Yet, it is Jesus who is their deepest desire, it is Jesus who they really long for. They want to come to him, but they won't. They think God is going to get them for their sins so they pull back. Jesus in John 3 says the lost are lost because they are afraid to come to the light for fear their deeds will be exposed, or fear that God is going to get them for their sins and they want to pull back and hide from Jesus. Yet they are also so drawn to the beauty of Jesus stronger than any magnetic pull we can imagine.

They see loved ones inside the city who they long to be with, but they also see others who they hurt, and even see how they used their loved ones for selfish purposes and how they have not changed and would still use the loved one for the selfish purposes, and the selfishness looks so ugly in contrast to the purety of Jesus, and they know that Jesus knows the darkest corners of their hearts and they pull back. Yet Jesus is so increadably beautiful to them.

Jesus' beauty is drawing out the best in them, but doing everything short of forcing the will, and their will is to think they are for themselves by making less of the outside world. They have choosen to not let the best in them come out, but they have cultivated some of their worst tendencies that have become characteristic of the trend of their life. They feel these tendencies are who they have become and thus Jesus' killing the worst in them and calling out their best when they refuse to have the best in them control them are in a horrible situation.

God is always loving and always calling. Jesus is always pleading, the Holy Spirit is always working on the heart. That is their character. They have hardened their heart, They have made a habit of refusing to yeild to Jesus' pleading and the habit continues and they don't trust God's love, believeing that God will get them for their sins. God does everything he can, just short of forcing the will to draw them to him, and the lost have destroyed their will becoming slaves to feelings and the current feeling is how horrible their sins are in contrast to the purety of Jesus, and they have a perverse joy in wallowing in their problems and complaints and reasons not to yield to the love of God.

It is his combination of God constantly loving them and drawing them and calling out the best in them, but stopping just short of forcing the will, and the sinner's wanting to run to the one altogether lovely and repent but having destroyed their will, God's love demanding them to be the best they can be, but they have choosen against being the best they can be, but they are so overwhelmingly attracted to Jesus. This wanting to come yet refusing. The power of the glory of God and all the ramifications that it has on someone coming into contact with this power is what makes being with Jesus heaven for some and hell for others. It becomes so intense for the sinner that it quite litterally ripps them appart and kills them.

God does one act, treating all of us the same. To some of us that great power of his glory and seeing what was hid from Moses, seeing the front of God, will go from making us feel like we are being burned alive, into where we find that we actually thrive, we deal with the contrast between our sinfulness and his beauty by casting our crowns at his feet and sing "Worthy, worthy, worthy is the lamb who was slain and lives again." However for others it becomes a consuming fire as they become psychological prisoners in their mind of the split between their incredible attraction to Jesus and their refusal to yield and their fear of God getting them for their sins, yet he is still their deepest desire, They want to come but they refuse to yield.

Hell would not be hell if God simply passively let them go and stopped loving them. Hell is hell because they are so drawn by the love of Jesus but they refuse to come to him. If only God would stop loving them and drawing them unto himself. But God continues to do everything short of forcing the will, and the lost is stuck in that position of being so overwhelmed by the love and beauty of Jesus and their chacter of refusing to yield to it. It is much more horrible than if God were to do simply a divine spanking such as sending a litteral fire.

On the cross Jesus wanted to be with the Father and the Spirit, but refused to because he knew that if sin did not kill him that it would kill the entire universe and Jesus refused his deepest desire out of his love for us. The horror of this choice was so overwhelming that he barely felt the physical pain of the cross. The horror of the sinner refusing to yield to his deepest desire and thus choosing to sepperate himself from the one alltogether lovely, is also so horrible that if God was to do some divine spanking such as burning them in a litteral fire, they would barely feel that fire. Their atteniton would not be on the fire but their attraction to Jesus and their fear of Jesus and their stalemate of wanting to come to him but refusing to come to him.

[Gail]

Kevin, I like how you put it- the front of God that Moses was not permitted to see.

I just read Louis Were's study on the fire of God's jealousy. Fire is SO connected in Scripture with God's presence. His holiness, His presence, His appearing- these are all accompanied by fire. Whether it is literal fire or whether "fire" is the closest word the Biblical writers could come up with to describe it will be determined in time, I reckon.

Interesting study!

[Gail]

I have a feeling that there is more to God's glory than just a word on a page...

God is not only a consuming fire, but fire and refining are described as good things when it comes to purification. These concepts might come in useful when considered in the topic of hell- the fire that consumes and cleanses.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

eternal torment

Which makes a lie of God's pronouncement that the soul that sins, he shall die. I'm a Seventh Day Adventist. I believe as the Bible repeats, when one dies one is immediately lifeless, until the resurrection.

"

Put not your trust in princes, in a son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 When his breath leaves him, he returns to his earth; in that very day his [previous] thoughts, plans, and purposes perish.

Happy (blessed, fortunate, enviable) is he who has the God of [special revelation to] Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the Lord his God," Psalm 146:3-5 AMP parenthesis, brackets their's LHC

God blesses!

[nuff sed]

If the wicked burn 'forever' sin will not not have been eradicated 'forever'... We would be able to see it 'forever'. Nuff Sed

[BobRyan]

Does the Adventist Church hold a biblically accurate interpretation of Hellfire and brimstone. Read this week’s issue of the Adventist Review to find out.

http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2008-1515&page=14

[phkrause]

Here is a more accurate (and inspired) explanation.

Quote:

EW 294

The Second Death

Satan rushes into the midst of his followers and tries to stir up the multitude to action. But fire from God out of heaven is rained upon them, and the great men, and mighty men, the noble, the poor and miserable, are all consumed together.

I saw that some were quickly destroyed, while others suffered longer. They were punished according to the deeds done in the body. Some were many days consuming, and just as long as there was a portion of them unconsumed, all the sense of suffering remained. Said the angel, "The worm of life shall not die; their fire shall not be quenched as long as there is the least particle for it to prey upon." {EW 294.1}

in Christ,

Bob

That is a very interesting quote from EGW. Thanks for posting Bob

[BobRyan]

You are welcomed PK - you have to admit it fits better with the tone of the warning that Christ was giving than "corruption that cannot be purged".

Where in the world do those article authors come up with those ideas?

in Christ,

Bob

[Windsor]

No decision is a "no decision". - me