McCain or Obama: Which would make the best president for Adventists

[doctorj]

I follow US politics from afar here in Australia and I would like to sample what citizens of the USA are thinking in regards to McCain or Obama as the future president. Which of these two candidates would be the best to come to office? Which of these two would give Seventh-day Adventists a better president? OR doesn't it matter really which one comes to power? Just like to know what Adventists living in USA have to say about these two candidates.

[Bravus]

I'm another Aussie, so I won't express an opinion on the question, but I suspect that our US friends will line up on their usual sides on this one... except Shane, who seems to actually look closely at the issues and vote on the merits.

It's an interesting question, though: what's the difference between 'best president for American SDAs' versus 'best president for America(ns) in general'?

[John317]

I follow US politics from afar here in Australia and I would like to sample what citizens of the USA are thinking in regards to McCain or Obama as the future president. Which of these two candidates would be the best to come to office? Which of these two would give Seventh-day Adventists a better president? OR doesn't it matter really which one comes to power? Just like to know what Adventists living in USA have to say about these two candidates.

There is a great deal to consider. There is the voting record but there are also issues of experience, character and judgment that must be taken into account.

After looking carefully at Obama's positions and voting record, I will give a conclusion as to how I would vote today.

First, consider the following facts regarding Obama's position on gay and lesbian issues:

Gay Rights

Being gay or lesbian is not a choice. (Nov 2007)

Decisions about marriage should be left to the states. (Oct 2007)

Homosexuality no more immoral than heterosexuality. (Oct 2007)

Ok to expose 6-year-olds to gay couples; they know already. (Sep 2007)

Has any marriage broken up because two gays hold hands? (Aug 2007)

We need strong civil unions, not just weak civil unions. (Aug 2007)

Legal rights for gays are conferred by state, not by church. (Aug 2007)

Disentangle gay rights from the word "marriage". (Aug 2007)

Gay marriage is less important that equal gay rights. (Aug 2007)

Gay rights movement is somewhat like civil rights movement. (Aug 2007)

Let each denominations decide on recognizing gay marriage. (Jul 2007)

Supports health benefits for gay civil partners. (Oct 2006)

Opposes gay marriage; supports civil union & gay equality. (Oct 2006)

Marriage not a human right; non-discrimination is. (Oct 2004)

Include sexual orientation in anti-discrimination laws. (Jul 1998)

Senate:

Every two years the Human Rights Campaign, the largest national gay and lesbian organization, issues a scorecard for members of the Senate based on their sponsorship and voting on key issues of importance to gay and lesbian citizens. Barack Obama scored 89 out of 100% in the 2006 scorecard. Here's how HRC rated Barack Obama:

Barack Obama on Hate Crimes:

Barack Obama co-sponsored legislation to expand federal hate crimes laws to include crimes perpetrated because of sexual orientation and gender identity.

Employment Non-Discrimination:

Barack Obama supports the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and believes it should be expanded to include sexual orientation and gender identity.

Don't Ask, Don't Tell - Gays in the Military:

Barack Obama believes we need to repeal the "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" policy and allow gays and lesbians to serve openly in the military. His campaign literature says, "The key test for military service should be patriotism, a sense of duty, and a willingness to serve."

Gay & Lesbian Adoption:

Barack Obama believes gays and lesbians should have the same rights to adopt children as heterosexuals.

Barack Obama and Gay Marriage/ Civil Unions:

Although Barack Obama has said that he supports civil unions, he is against gay marriage. In an interview with the Chicago Daily Tribune, Obama said, "I'm a Christian. And so, although I try not to have my religious beliefs dominate or determine my political views on this issue, I do believe that tradition, and my religious beliefs say that marriage is something sanctified between a man and a woman."

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

He said he would support civil unions between gay and lesbian couples, as well as letting individual states determine if marriage between gay and lesbian couples should be legalized.

"Giving them a set of basic rights would allow them to experience their relationship and live their lives in a way that doesn't cause discrimination," Obama said. "I think it is the right balance to strike in this society."

Sources: Chicago Daily Tribune, National Gay and Lesbian Task Force

Now consider Obama's position regarding abortion:

Ok for state to restrict late-term partial birth abortion. (Apr 2008)

We can find common ground between pro-choice and pro-life. (Apr 2008)

Undecided on whether life begins at conception. (Apr 2008)

Teach teens about abstinence and also about contraception. (Apr 2008)

GovWatch: Obama's "present" votes were a requested strategy. (Feb 2008)

Expand access to contraception; reduce unintended pregnancy. (Feb 2008)

Rated 100% by NARAL on pro-choice votes in 2005, 2006 & 2007. (Jan 2008)

Voted against banning partial birth abortion. (Oct 2007)

Stem cells hold promise to cure 70 major diseases. (Aug 2007)

Trust women to make own decisions on partial-birth abortion. (Apr 2007)

Extend presumption of good faith to abortion protesters. (Oct 2006)

Constitution is a living document; no strict constructionism. (Oct 2006)

Moral accusations from pro-lifers are counterproductive. (Oct 2004)

Pass the Stem Cell Research Bill. (Jun 2004)

Protect a woman's right to choose. (May 2004)

Supports Roe v. Wade. (Jul 1998)

Voted NO on defining unborn child as eligible for SCHIP. (Mar 2008)

Voted NO on prohibiting minors crossing state lines for abortion. (Mar 2008)

Voted YES on expanding research to more embryonic stem cell lines. (Apr 2007)

Voted NO on notifying parents of minors who get out-of-state abortions. (Jul 2006)

Voted YES on $100M to reduce teen pregnancy by education & contraceptives. (Mar 2005)

Sponsored bill providing contraceptives for low-income women. (May 2006)

Rated 0% by the NRLC, indicating a pro-choice stance. (Dec 2006)

Ensure access to and funding for contraception. (Feb 2007)

[doctorj]

First, consider the following facts regarding Obama's position . . .

I am not sure I really know which way you are thinking on this issue. I see all the line-up and assume that you are saying that Obama would not be the one you would choose as being a good president for Adventists. But would McCain be any better?

[John317]

I have not completely made up my mind, although at this time I tend to lean towards McCain. However, as with many Americans, neither candidate is my first choice for the office.

I like some of the things that Obama stands for. I like his position on gays, for instance. I think it is the best, most reasonable position, although I do not necessarily agree with every point of his, such as having gays living openly as gay in the military. That would need further study as far as I'm concerned. To put it bluntly, does Obama's position on this mean that a gay soldier could be in a romantic, sexual relationship with a soldier living in the same unit? How would this affect the unit's effectiveness in performing its mission?

I have concerns about Obama's experience and his judgment. So if I had to vote right now, I would almost certainly vote for McCain, because I believe he would be best for the US as a whole, and particularly as regards the security and military matters. McCain has also shown a real ability and willingness to work with Democrats to solve problems, so I like that aspect of him.

[John317]

Consider Obama's positions on Taxes:

Barack Obama on Tax Reform

Click here for 25 full quotes on Tax Reform OR other candidates on Tax Reform OR background on Tax Reform.

Under Bill Clinton, rich people didn't feel oppressed. (Apr 2008)

No tax increase if earning under $250K; tax cuts under $75K. (Apr 2008)

Raise capital gains tax for fairness, not for revenue. (Apr 2008)

Tax cut for seniors and those making $75,000 a year or less. (Feb 2008)

I'm not bashful about it: wealthy will pay more taxes. (Jan 2008)

Stimulus package: $500 tax cut, & Social Security supplement. (Jan 2008)

Restore progressive tax; close loopholes; relief to seniors. (Oct 2007)

Trillion dollar giveaway: the Paris Hilton Tax Break. (Oct 2007)

Reduce Bush tax cuts to pay for health care & other programs. (Jun 2007)

Estate tax only affects the wealthiest 1/2 of 1%. (Oct 2006)

Specific tax relief for families making $75,000 or less now. (Jan 2006)

Bush tax cuts help corporations but not middle class. (Jun 2004)

Tax incentives to create jobs at home instead of offshore. (Jun 2004)

Last thing we need now is a permanent tax cut. (Jan 2008)

Voted YES on increasing tax rate for people earning over $1 million. (Mar 2008)

Voted NO on allowing AMT reduction without budget offset. (Mar 2008)

Voted NO on raising the Death Tax exemption to $5M from $1M. (Feb 2008)

Voted NO on repealing the Alternative Minimum Tax. (Mar 2007)

Voted NO on raising estate tax exemption to $5 million. (Mar 2007)

Voted NO on supporting permanence of estate tax cuts. (Aug 2006)

Voted NO on permanently repealing the `death tax`. (Jun 2006)

Voted YES on $47B for military by repealing capital gains tax cut. (Feb 2006)

Voted NO on retaining reduced taxes on capital gains & dividends. (Feb 2006)

Voted NO on extending the tax cuts on capital gains and dividends. (Nov 2005)

Rated 100% by the CTJ, indicating support of progressive taxation. (Dec 2006)

Compare above with McCain on Taxes:

Pro Growth, Pro-Jobs Tax Agenda

Cutting Taxes For The Middle Class:

John McCain Will Cut Taxes For Middle Class Families. John McCain will permanently repeal the Alternative Minimum Tax (AMT) – a tax that will be paid nearly exclusively by 25 million middle class families. Repealing this onerous tax will save middle class families nearly $60 billion in a single year. Under McCain's plan, a middle class family with children set to pay the AMT will save an average of over $2,700 – a real tax cut for working families.

John McCain Will Double The Personal Exemption For Dependents. John McCain believes the tax code should be less of a burden on those, whether they are mothers and fathers or single parents, who are trying to raise a family. He proposes to raise the personal exemption for each dependent from $3,500 to $7,000.

Pro-Growth Tax Policy:

John McCain Will Keep Tax Rates Low. Entrepreneurs are at the heart of American innovation, growth and prosperity. They create the ultimate job security – a new, better opportunity if your current job goes away. Entrepreneurs should not be taxed into submission.

John McCain Will Maintain The Current Income And Investment Tax Rates And Fight The Democrats' Plans For A Crippling Tax Increase In 2011. Left to their devices, Democrats will impose a massive $100 billion tax hike, almost $700 per taxpayer every year. John McCain has also long sought permanent and immediate reform of the estate tax, and supports raising the exemption from taxation on estates up to $10 million while cutting the tax rate to 15 percent.

John McCain Will Make It Harder To Raise Taxes. John McCain believes it should require a 3/5 majority vote in Congress to raise taxes.

John McCain Will Reward Saving, Investment And Risk-Taking. Low taxes on dividends and capital gains promote saving, channel investment dollars to innovative, high-value uses and not wasteful financial planning. John McCain will keep the current rates on dividends and capital gains and fight anti-growth efforts by Democrats.

John McCain Will Improve Business Investment Incentives. John McCain proposes to permit corporations to immediately deduct the cost of equipment investment, providing a valuable pro-growth investment incentive. Expensing of equipment and technology will provide an immediate boost to capital expenditures and reward investments in cutting-edge technologies.

Tax Cuts On American Employers:

John McCain Will Reduce The Federal Corporate Tax Rate To 25 Percent From 35 Percent. John McCain believes the taxes we impose on American companies should be no higher than the average rate our major trading partners impose on theirs. We currently have the second-highest combined corporate-tax rate in the industrialized world, and it is driving many businesses and the jobs they create overseas.

Pro-Innovation Tax Cuts:

John McCain Will Ban Internet Taxes. John McCain has been a leader in keeping the Internet free of taxes. As President, he will seek a permanent ban on taxes that threaten this engine of economic growth and prosperity.

John McCain Will Ban New Cell Phone Taxes. John McCain understands that the same people that would tax e-mail will tax every text message – and even 911 calls. John McCain will prohibit new cellular telephone taxes.

John McCain Will Establish Permanent Tax Credit Equal To 10 Percent Of Wages Spent On R&D. This reform will simplify the tax code, reward activity in the U.S., and make us more competitive with other countries. A permanent credit will provide an incentive to innovate and remove uncertainty. At a time when our companies need to be more competitive, we need to provide a permanent incentive to innovate, and remove the uncertainty now hanging over businesses as they make R&D investment decisions.

Retirement Tax Cut:

John McCain Will Act To Lower Medicare Premiums. Seniors face a growing threat from higher Medicare premiums that tax away their Social Security and retirement savings. John McCain has proposed comprehensive, pro-market health care and Medicare reforms to reduce health care costs and control increases in premiums – while delivering high-quality health care.

A Real Choice For Simpler Taxes:

John McCain Will Propose An Alternative New And Simpler Tax System – And Give America A Real Choice. When this reform is enacted, all who wish to stay under the current system could still do so, but everyone else could choose a vastly less complicated system with two tax rates and a generous standard deduction. Americans do not resent paying their rightful share of taxes – what they do resent is being subjected to thousands of pages of needless and often irrational rules and demands from the IRS.

[John317]

John McCain on gay and lesbian issues:

Same-Sex Marriage: John McCain does not support same-sex marriage. From his website, " The family represents the foundation of Western Civilization and civil society and John McCain believes the institution of marriage is a union between one man and one woman. It is only this definition that sufficiently recognizes the vital and unique role played by mothers and fathers in the raising of children, and the role of the family in shaping, stabilizing, and strengthening communities and our nation."

However, he opposes a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage.

Gay and Lesbian Adoption: John McCain's stance on gay and lesbian adoption is unknown

Don't Ask, Don't Tell: John McCain does not support gays and lesbians serving in the military. According to Earth Times in an April 16 letter to Servicemembers Legal Defense Network (SLDN), McCain says "Don't Ask, Don't Tell" "Unambiguously maintains that open homosexuality within the military services presents an intolerable risk to morale, cohesion and discipline."

He also stated on Meet the Press in November 2007, "I do believe the don't ask, don't tell policy has been very effective. We've got the best military we've ever had...I think it's logical to leave this issue alone."

More on John McCain and GLBT Issues:

Regarding the Federal Marriage Amendment, John McCain said, "The constitutional amendment we're debating today strikes me as antithetical in every way to the core philosophy of Republicans."

John McCain said he supported an Amendment to Arizona's Constitution that would ban gay marriages and deny government benefits to unmarried couples.

Sources: National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, Earth Times, On the issues, JohnMcCain.com, Arizona Republic.

[John317]

McCain On Abortion and the Family:

Human Dignity and the Sanctity of Life

Overturning Roe v. Wade

John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.

Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.

However, the reversal of Roe v. Wade represents only one step in the long path toward ending abortion. Once the question is returned to the states, the fight for life will be one of courage and compassion - the courage of a pregnant mother to bring her child into the world and the compassion of civil society to meet her needs and those of her newborn baby. The pro-life movement has done tremendous work in building and reinforcing the infrastructure of civil society by strengthening faith-based, community, and neighborhood organizations that provide critical services to pregnant mothers in need. This work must continue and government must find new ways to empower and strengthen these armies of compassion. These important groups can help build the consensus necessary to end abortion at the state level. As John McCain has publicly noted, "At its core, abortion is a human tragedy. To effect meaningful change, we must engage the debate at a human level."

Promoting Adoption

In 1993, John McCain and his wife, Cindy, adopted a little girl from Mother Teresa's orphanage in Bangladesh. She has been a blessing to the McCain family and helped make adoption advocacy a personal issue for the Senator.

The McCain family experience is not unique; millions of families have had their lives transformed by the adoption of a child. As president, motivated by his personal experience, John McCain will seek ways to promote adoption as a first option for women struggling with a crisis pregnancy. In the past, he cosponsored legislation to prohibit discrimination against families with adopted children, to provide adoption education, and to permit tax deductions for qualified adoption expenses, as well as to remove barriers to interracial and inter-ethnic adoptions.

Protecting Marriage

As president, John McCain would nominate judges who understand that the role of the Court is not to subvert the rights of the people by legislating from the bench. Critical to Constitutional balance is ensuring that, where state and local governments do act to preserve the traditional family, the Courts must not overstep their authority and thwart the Constitutional right of the people to decide this question.

The family represents the foundation of Western Civilization and civil society and John McCain believes the institution of marriage is a union between one man and one woman. It is only this definition that sufficiently recognizes the vital and unique role played by mothers and fathers in the raising of children, and the role of the family in shaping, stabilizing, and strengthening communities and our nation.

As with most issues vital to the preservation and health of civil society, the basic responsibility for preserving and strengthening the family should reside at the level of government closest to the people. In their wisdom, the Founding Fathers reserved for the States the authority and responsibility to protect and strengthen the vital institutions of our civil society. They did so to ensure that the voices of America's families could not be ignored by an indifferent national government or suffocated through filibusters and clever legislative maneuvering in Congress.

[John317]

Both McCain and Obama would be equally strong in their support of the separation of church and state, if we can go by their statements and by the way they have voted in the U.S. Senate. (I should add, however, that the issues related to church and state relations are becoming more and more complex, so that for someone to say they support the separation does not mean it did only a few years ago. Already being are being sued because they won't photograph gay couples, and the time will soon come when ministers may not be able to keep their licenses if they refuse to marry a gay couple.)

It appears, then, in light of the above, that McCain's view on gays is more in line with SDA goals and positions. See article in current Pacific Union Recorder on "Same Sex Marriage Challenges Religious Liberty." The Link: http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...age_#Post175094

McCain's view of abortion and family also seem to be more in line with the positions taken by the SDA church on those issues.

[Neil D]

So, John, what websites did you cut and paste these comments from?

[Dr. Shane]

This thread should probably be in the politics sub-forum.

Quote:

Barack Obama did vote against a Federal Marriage Amendment and opposed the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996.

I have no problem with Obama's vote against the Federal Marriage Amendment. His opposition to the Defense of Marriage Act in 1996 is troublesome. Many that did not vote for the Federal Marriage Amendment didn't because they stated the Defense of Marriage Act was enough.

The issue at stake is immigration. If gays can marry have have it recognized on a federal level they can marry foreigners and bring them here. After three years those foreigners can become citizens, divorce their gay spouse and both can marry more foreigners and bring more gays to the country. Most straight people that marry foreigners have children with them and most stay together. Of those that get divorced, most do not go on to marry more foreigners.

Passing laws that mandate the federal government to recognize gay marriage will cause the US to be a magnet for gays around the world. Our 1% gay population will become 10% - 25% within a few decades.

[Neil D]

This thread should probably be in the politics sub-forum.

[John317]

So, John, what websites did you cut and paste these comments from?

Do you see any inaccuracies there as to the Senate votes or the positions that either candidate is taking?

If you do, then let's see it and discuss it.

Check it out:

http://www.ontheissues.org/Barack_Obama.htm

[jasd]

>>...but I suspect that our US friends will line up on their usual sides on this one... except Shane, who seems to actually look closely at the issues and vote on the merits.<<

Of course; but what “issues” is Shane considering? I mean,

it so cut and dried that one need not invest in closer looks. There is ‘bama, airy chantilly – of nothin’ platitudes who does not even have those -- when the teleprompter crashes and he is forced to ad lib. And, there is ‘bama whose ‘policies’ cause a natural and reflexive recoil among right-thinking Americans –without the closer inspection

Then, there is McCain. Not much to trill and thrill about. However, consider the alternative..., that is,

Troika! of ‘bama orama, Pelosi, and Reid... Yikes! Have mercy! Beware the Bundestan. :-o

Be afraid, America.[/sotto voce]

Good grief! --Pogo

[doctorj]

. . . it so cut and dried that one need not invest in closer looks.

From watching CNN, ABC News, and BBC channels I would not have called this as too "cut and dried". I am finding this very interesting watching this from afar. I mean I did spend 10 years living in the USA, so all this political hoo-ha is much clearer to me than many Australians.

BUT I just don't see McCain as a future president of the USA let alone being the right president to suit Adventist needs? I suppose that is as much a question as it is a statement. Really, which one is going to champion the causes we need to have championed? Maybe Obama is not the right one either? Would Hillary been a better option?

[John317]

Why not give the reasons, and the positions that McCain takes, which cause you to believe he would not make a good US president and particularly so from the standpoint of SDAs?

Would you categorize Senator Obama as a very liberal Senator? Can you think of any US Senator who is more liberal in terms of voting record and positions taken?

Do you get FoxNews also?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

which one is going to champion the causes we need to have championed?

What are these Adventist causes?

• Religious Liberty
• Private education
• Health care

Those are the principle cares of Adventism.

How will Obama's proposed health-care plan impact Adventist providers of health care? Would Adventist providers be required to perform abortions?

How does support of educational vouchers impact the Adventist educational system? Does Obama's willingness to consider educational vouchers help the Adventist school system? Is McCain firm support of vouchers make him of more help to the Adventist school system?

Are abortion and gay marriage Adventist causes? To what extent do this issues impact the Adventist church?

[carolaa]

What are these Adventist causes?

• Religious Liberty
• Private education
• Health care

Those are the principle cares of Adventism.

I don't know if this would be an addition to your list or if your list would just incorporate it, but Adventists are always concerned about Supreme Court appointees.

[doctorj]

Do you get FoxNews also?

Yes, we get FoxNews via cable here, although I must admit I do not spend much time on FoxNews. I am more a CNN fan, and spend lots of time watching their political news.

[John317]

I used to be a big fan of CNN also. Now I watch all the news channels, including FoxNews. It has been shown CNN has a lot of short-term watchers-- those who watch for a short time-- but FoxNews has many more viewers who stay for hours. And another thing is that FoxNews almost always gives both the Republican and Democratic viewpoint.

Of course no one (in my opinion) is going to learn to understand America and its election by watching BBC any more than one would understand Britain by watching FoxNews. BBC is very good, though, for getting a look at America from the British viewpoint, and FoxNews the viewpoint of Britain by its American cousin. Haven't you found this to be true?

[John317]

Excellent questions, Shane, along with the one mentioned by carolaa, the Supreme Court nominees.

During the next few months, I'm going to be looking at both candidates very closely as to how their policies will affect the very things brought up here.

[doctorj]

What are these Adventist causes?

• Religious Liberty
• Private education
• Health care
• Supreme Court Nominees

Those are the principle cares of Adventism.

I am surprised that there are so few items on your list as causes that might impact an Adventist.

[Dr. Shane]

Please ad more. Those are three big ones. Someone mentioned Supreme Court justices but what is our concern about Supreme Court justices? Wouldn't that fall under the category of religious liberty?

[doctorj]

Please ad [sic] more. Those are three big ones.

What about Human Rights? Not quite the same as Religious Liberty.

And perhaps also from a more personal note we could consider issues that have to do with an Adventist's personal affairs, such as Taxation and the uses of my money going to government, i.e. I don't want a part of every dollar going to the Government to wage war as I am against warmongering etc. On this issue I would be an Obama supporter as he intends to bring the troops home.

However, Obama seems to stand for more taxation and not less, whereas McCain seems to stand for lower taxes.

[Dr. Shane]

When I think of the Adventist church I think of a world-wide church. Individual members have their own opinion on a variety of things but the church should be rather consistent.

I don't see that the church should take a position on taxes other than it not oppress the poor. Taxes certainly do not do that in America.

As far as human rights are concerned I think the Adventist position is centered primarily on religious liberty. Our purpose is to spread the gospel. If we take an adversarial role to the government in China how would that help us spread the gospel there? So our fight in this regard should be limited to religious liberty, IMO.

The war is being fought on borrowed money so it is actually our children's taxes. If we were not fighting the war, instead of spending the money on something else, I would hope we would be running a balanced budget.

Obama favors paying for abortions for low income women. Is that a use of tax payers money that Adventists should support?

Obama favors increasing our military presence in Afghanistan and Pakistan. Does that sound like bringing our boys home?