jasd Posted July 7, 2008 Share Posted July 7, 2008 >>Political questions could split the church, and we are a church for only one reason, which is to spread the gospel, not debate political issues and take sides against one another.<< Of all the reasons individual churches within the .Org have split or are – I’ve not read of an instance where it resulted from differing political views. I agree that the Gospel should be spread – by .org, and/or by individual effort – both being acceptable in that Gd first turned the world upside-down with individuals – rather than by .orgs. Further, I agree that there should not exist an atmosphere of extremity in “one against another” within the church per se. That said, are you suggesting that there was no debate within the .Org re Prohibition (even regarding the fact that the matter was issue-related moreso than a 'judgement' call upon one or more individuals)? That is a rather narrow distinction... >>I enjoy discussing the election, etc., but I've been really saddened at times to see SDAs getting angry with another over who to vote for.<< Yes, I can see where the mild and tepid would rather – elect not to even discuss issues – let alone hyperbolize upon the same. However, “Ye are the salt of the earth” comes to mind. Somehow, to my understanding, that does not translate to non-participation in electoral processes. Disabuse me should I err, but that goes to influencing the ‘nurturing or environmental’ aspect of our children’s lives – as opposed to the nature of our children. Govt is a reality. And yes, SDAs ought to be able to put a lid on their anger with another's opposing view – or zip it. (Speaking of anger, I apologize, John McCain, for questioning your anger. For cryin' out loud, get over your tight smiles and nothing answers - and get ANGRY! Get angry NOW! You're getting creamed by the unprincipled.) >>So I can see some good reasons for Ellen White's saying what she did about that.<< Yes, ...some good reasons, emphasis on “some”. Of course, we must bear in mind the preceding arguments upon these boards establishing that – the good woman erred occasionally. >>The masses can be very fickle, and if the nation changes its policy or goals with every poll, it would create great instability.<< It seems our Senators follow polls more diligently (and are influenced by them) than do the masses. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorj Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Does the SDA church and its leaders in Australia discuss how to deal with the issue of voting in relationship to Ellen White's statements on the subject? I am sure many do not even know what she wrote about it or why. I have not heard from any leader in the Australian SDA Church who has discussed voting, not voting, or any other matter about political activity. I was unaware of Ellen White comments about voting and have been in and around the SDA Church for 55 years. I have never heard about this issue from the pulpit either. Quote Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2008 Might be interesting to read everything she wrote on the subject and then discuss it or ask leaders what their thoughts are about it. I'd love to hear, myself. In fact, maybe we could read it and discuss it here if you'd like. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Ellen White was not opposed to voting in and of itself. She supported prohibition so much she told people to vote for it even if it meant voting on Sabbath. She opposed allying ourselves with political parties and labor unions. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorj Posted July 8, 2008 Author Share Posted July 8, 2008 Might be interesting to read everything she wrote on the subject and then discuss it or ask leaders what their thoughts are about it. I'd love to hear, myself. In fact, maybe we could read it and discuss it here if you'd like. Maybe we should set up a new topic and discuss what Ellen White has to say on the topic of politics, voting and associated activities. Quote Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 8, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 8, 2008 Ellen White was not opposed to voting in and of itself. She supported prohibition so much she told people to vote for it even if it meant voting on Sabbath. She opposed allying ourselves with political parties and labor unions. I think you're right here. Other important issues deal with not dividing people in the church over political matters, and preachers and teachers using time for political "speechifying" that should be devoted to the church and to spiritual things. Do you know the reference for her counsel to vote on temperance on the Sabbath? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 8, 2008 Share Posted July 8, 2008 Quote: and associated activities That might cover quite a bit. Like previously discussed. Would Ellen White vote for Hillary? As we discovered in a previous thread ... she would not. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorj Posted July 10, 2008 Author Share Posted July 10, 2008 Are we really sure who she would or would not vote for..... she is dead...isn't she? Of course we don't have the capability to interview Ellen White. However, from reading her writings we get the message that Ellen White would not vote specifically for a nominated person. She says: "God calls to His people, saying, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate." He asks that the love which He has shown for them may be reciprocated and revealed by willing obedience to His commandments. His children are to separate themselves from politics, from any alliance with unbelievers. They are not to link their interests with the interests of the world. "Give proof of your allegiance to Me" He says, "by standing as My chosen heritage, as a people zealous of good works." Do not take part in political strife. Separate from the world, and refrain from bringing into the church or school ideas that will lead to contention or disorder. Dissension is the moral poison taken into the system by human beings who are selfish. God wants His servants to have clear perceptions, true and noble dignity, that their influence may demonstrate the power of truth. The Christian life is not to be a haphazard, emotional life. True Christian influence, exerted for the accomplishment of the work God has appointed, is a precious agency, and it must not be united with politics, or bound up in a confederacy with unbelievers. God is to be the center of attraction. Every mind that is worked by the Holy Spirit will be satisfied with Him." {FE 483.2} Quote Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted July 10, 2008 Share Posted July 10, 2008 Are we really sure who she would or would not vote for.....she is dead...isn't she? :smilewink: Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted July 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: CoAspen Are we really sure who she would or would not vote for.....she is dead...isn't she? :smilewink: Quote: "I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder" Ellen White --Review and Herald, Dec. 19, 1878. ChS 28 Including the whole sentence helps us to understand what she was saying. She said, "I do not recommend that women should seek to become a voter or an office holder; but as a missionary, teaching the truth by epistolary correspondence, distributing tracts and soliciting subscribers for periodicals containing the solemn truth for this time, she may do very much." Therefore it is clear that she is talking about Seventh-day Adventist women, and she is saying they will do much more good for the sake of the gospel if women will work as missionaries rather than spending their time and effort in political campaigns and offices. The principle is still true. A second point of importance is that Ellen White does not imply here that God revealed this "recommendation" in a vision or dream, etc. She says, "I do not recommend..." In other words, it is no command from God or by revelation from God. Saint Paul also gave recommendations that he distinguished from commands or revelations from God, as in 1 Cor. 7: 6, 10, 12. Just as Paul's personal recommendations would be different if he were writing today under different circumstances, so also would Ellen White's recommendations on the subject of voting be different if she were alive today. This is obvious by virtue of the fact that when Ellen White wrote the above recommendation, women did not even have the constitutional right to vote. Ellen White was not recommending that SDA women spend their time and energies in the agitation for the right of women to vote. Considering the time and the circumstances, I believe she was correct. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorj Posted July 11, 2008 Author Share Posted July 11, 2008 Clearly Ellen White does not consider politics as a career that an Adventist should participate in. There is a more pressing work that needs doing and that is to proclaim the Gospel. Does this mean that we should not "waste" time discussing politics? Does this mean that we should not have thoughts and opinions regarding politics? Should we even be discussing politics on this forum? Quote Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted July 12, 2008 Share Posted July 12, 2008 Politics is one thing. Public service is another. There are examples in the Bible of God's people who worked in public service. There is nothing wrong with that. The world is desperate for godly leaders. There is also nothing wrong with being educated about issues and world affairs and discussing them with others. I suppose it would be up to each person to prayerfully consider the amount of time spent on it and the effect it has on them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doctorj Posted July 14, 2008 Author Share Posted July 14, 2008 There is also nothing wrong with being educated about issues and world affairs and discussing them with others. I suppose it would be up to each person to prayerfully consider the amount of time spent on it and the effect it has on them. So was it a good question to ask who might an Adventist want to have a President, Obama or McCain? OR Maybe we should educate ourselves on these issues but make them fleeting in our overall quest for a place in the Heavenly Kingdom? Quote Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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