Gitmo Innocents

[carolaa]

The reason we don't have prison reform is because felons can't vote!

I agree with you. Just clarification. Prisoners can't vote, but many states refuse to let ex-prisoners vote, as well. They might make the determination based on what kind of crime was committed - or not.

I learned that on Democracy Now.

[Dr. Shane]

I do not take the position that extremest blogs are bad nor that there are sources of news which are 100% balanced. My point is that these extremist sources like Media Matters or Rush Limbaugh want to spin us and play us like a fiddle. And they are amazingly successful with many people. It behooves us to balance them out. If we go and read a far left blog we need to balance that out with a far right blog or talk radio or something.

[John317]

I do not take the position that extremest blogs are bad nor that there are sources of news which are 100% balanced. ... If we go and read a far left blog we need to balance that out with a far right blog or talk radio or something.

Completely agree. I would say it of almost any subject. Read widely and read both pro and con.

I enjoy listening to people, and reading articles, on both the political right and the left.

[carolaa]

I do not take the position that extremest blogs are bad nor that there are sources of news which are 100% balanced. My point is that these extremist sources like Media Matters or Rush Limbaugh want to spin us and play us like a fiddle. And they are amazingly successful with many people. It behooves us to balance them out. If we go and read a far left blog we need to balance that out with a far right blog or talk radio or something.

I totally agree with you up to the last sentence, which perhaps needs a little clarification. I want to find out the truth, and that's not as simple as finding a balance between far right and far left smoke blowing.

I think the best way to know the *truth* is to go to the sources who are reporting mostly from primary sources, hopefully who have proven over time to be credible, sources who are trying to dig out the facts instead of just repeating someone else's news, who don't try to manipulate the facts to meet some agenda, and who don't op-ed a lot.

There are sources on the right and left who do a pretty good job of that (as well as international), but you have to find them and not just willy-nilly pick a left-nut and a right-nut and figure the truth is somewhere in between. (And I'm sure you were not insinuating that, but I'm just trying to clarify my thoughts.)

[Dr. Shane]

I think I probably had more trust in Tim Russert than any other journalist. Now he is dead and perhaps an era of trying to report the news objectively died with him.

Call me cynical but I don't believe there are many in the news media doing a good job of reporting the news. I am a news junky but listen to everyone with suspicion that they have an agenda they are trying to sell.

As far as the truth goes... Well, I suspect we all want to know the truth, perhaps Adventists more than the average person. But I am not so vain to think that if I heard the "truth" about a specific news story that I would be able to distinguish it as truth.

In the spirit of respect and friendship I will use Bravus as an example to contrast myself. Bravus has a list on accomplishments a bit longer than mine. He is successful and indisputably intelligent. Yet we can both read the same news story and come away from it with a different belief in the "truth" of what really happened. So one of us (perhaps both) is wrong or misunderstands the story. We can't both be right. I think it would be quite conceited of me to assume I am always right and he is always wrong. Certainly I cannot always be right and conversely I can't always be wrong either. So how do I know the "truth"? I don't. And there is no way for me to know when I am wrong and when I am right in regard to the understanding of current events.

I know what I believe. I can share with others why I believe it. And I reserve the right to be wrong and change my mind. But I see no way of being sure that I know the "truth" regarding news stories.

Finding spiritual truths is much easier because by faith I can trust the Bible. I can't put that kind of faith in any news outlet or journalist.

[Neil D]

Quote:

You make it sound like it is the norm, even in our civilian prisons.

It is! I have been sitting in A.A. meetings for over 20 years. I have known many many people that have served in prison and anyone that doesn't think abuse in civilian prisons is the norm has no place in a discussion about prisons. The reason we don't have prison reform is because felons can't vote!

I am still waiting for the name of the country with a more ethical military than ours. What nation should be our example?

You know, Shane, you tell me that I need to get a better view, a more varied view of media sources when it comes to getting my info on what's happening in the world. And I know that you are in AA meetings. Another of my cousins has been going to them for many years as well [we are talking more than one decades here] and he let's me know some of the things that happen there as well. It's his church, he says.

I work in the medical field, and by my experience, EVERYONE is sick. EVERYONE has a headache, or a stomachache or a shoulder ache or dizzyiness that the doctors can't seem to correct. And it's been my experience, and I have to admit that I have even done it, that when I am on the recieving end of something bad, it's not just bad, IT'S REALLY BAD!!!!!! I have heard that when there are aches and pains from others, it is truely the worst pain you can hardly imagine....and, of course, IT HAPPENS ALL THE TIME.

So, Shane, with all due respect, I know that abuse happens. But as for the frequency and the intensity, ...well, that is subjective...and doesn't correlate with the info that I have.

Again, I stand by my words...I demand better of MY American Military.

As for prison reform, that's a whole different subject...

[carolaa]

I totally agree that truth can be interpreted differently. But when the Red Cross states that what is going on in Guantanamo is "categorically torture" (not "it might be"), and the CIA report says probably 1/3 of the inmates are innocent and that's why they aren't getting good information out of there - how do you interpret that differently?

There is a teacher there who was turned in by a student that he gave a bad grade to. There are people there who were victims of inter-tribal disputes - turned in by someone just because they belonged to a different tribe that they were angry with. These people were not even in the vicinity of Al-Quaida, yet they got picked up and held for years as the "worst of the worst."

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

As for prison reform, that's a whole different subject...

I disagree. This thread is about Gitmo, which is a military prison. The fact that we have abuse in our civilian prisons is relevant to the fact that we have abuse in our military prisons. The reason such a big deal is made regarding Gitmo is because the anti-war crowd is using it to further their cause. We don't hear so much about the abuse in the state pen because it has nothing to do with the war on terror.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Another of my cousins has been going to them for many years as well [we are talking more than one decades here] and he let's me know some of the things that happen there as well. It's his church, he says.

This is off topic but...

Too many in AA make a religion out of it. Your cousin isn't alone. However both of the co-founders of AA called it a spiritual kindergarten. When AA members tell me that AA is their church or that they don't need church because they have AA, I always remark to them that they must not aspire to go past kindergarten.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

how do you interpret that differently?

The International Red Cross goes on what prisoners tell them. In the video clip in the other thread we have a kid claiming that he lost his eyes and feet when he obviously has not lost his eyes nor his feet. So what the International Red Cross is reporting isn't necessarily correct.

The CIA report is alleged. We have to take the word of a reporter with an admitted liberal, anti-war bias. I have not seen the report. I don't know anything about it.

I am not so gullible that I am just going to take the word of a Red Cross worker or an anti-war journalist. I am not defending abuse in Gitmo. I am just stating that we don't know how much truth there is in what is being reported.

[carolaa]

Quote:

As for prison reform, that's a whole different subject...

I disagree. This thread is about Gitmo, which is a military prison. The fact that we have abuse in our civilian prisons is relevant to the fact that we have abuse in our military prisons. The reason such a big deal is made regarding Gitmo is because the anti-war crowd is using it to further their cause. We don't hear so much about the abuse in the state pen because it has nothing to do with the war on terror.

I totally agree with you about the U.S. prisons. There are those who say they have it too cush, but they aren't taking into account the abuse that goes on. On the other hand, I could be wrong, but I don't think we torture prisoners in the U.S. As far as I know, we are still outsourcing that.

[Dr. Shane]

Now, since Congress has acted, our military is not allowed to torture. The CIA is allowed to waterboard. Some feel waterboarding is not torture. I disagree. However when compared to what the Vietnamese did to our soldiers, I agree it pales in comparison.

I do not believe the torture aspect of Gitmo is now what it was since the military is no longer doing it. However there is abuse going on there which is a lot of what the Red Cross is reporting.

[carolaa]

Now, since Congress has acted, our military is not allowed to torture. The CIA is allowed to waterboard.

Then there's always those black site prisons, where they have no rules.

[Dr. Shane]

Of course there are and always will be. When we close Gitmo these prisoners will simply be sent to prisons in other countries that are outside the jurisdiction of the US. I don' know if that is the victory the anti-war liberals wanted but that is what is going to happen.