What is the Atonement?

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Jesus words' shouldn't be taken as a repeal of the above laws,...

I've never said that the "law was repealed." I said it could not be altered. What I said is that Paul says that the believer IS NOT UNDER ITS JURISDICTION. The believer is *dead to the law" and "married to another" (which is adultery if you are still married to the law).

>>>any more than Jesus' words mean it is OK to murder since the law against murder is not one of the commandments He mentioned.

So to your mind, the only way for God to communicate "do not murder" is by carving it into a rock? What abouc conscience? What about the breath? What about "through a son?" What about through apostles' doctrine? Paul was not fond of carved rocks:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit [breath]: for the letter killeth, but the spirit [breath] giveth life [ie: "Breath of life"].

But you like the carved rocks. You think they are essential. How can man possibly know not to murder without a carved rock?

>>>Some of the commands God gave had to do specifically with the condition of Israel as they wandered in the wilderness. Others had to do with the sacrificial system, etc.

So you are a judge of the law then? Parsing the law into "these are moral and these are just ignorable stuff?"

>>>Does this help or make anything clearer?

It makes it clear that like Gollum, you are not about to give up "your precious" merely under the force of the text.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>...it will be seen that they also refer to "the Moral law" as synonymous with the Ten Commandments.

This just confirms to my mind that the Biblical religion is extinct. What do they say the 614 commands, "The Two Great Commands" or the sermon on the mount are? Chopped liver?!

Christians can't seem to get anything right. The Bible is a closed book because of the traditions. Trinity, going to heaven, going to hell, you name it, they have no clue!

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>Yes. Every one of the Ten Commandments are supported in the New Testament.

"9 commands". "New Testament?" "supported?" - not as binding for the believer.

>>>They are all quoted as binding under the New Covenant.

The new covenant is pretty short. It is not like the first one.

>>>Example: Does the New Covenant release Christians from the law prohibiting murder?

The new covenant is between God and the Jews - just like the Mosaic covenant. Christians are "justified by faith apart from the works of the law."

>>>Does it release Christians from the law prohibiting using God's name in vain?

It releases from the law entirely, with no exceptions. Every command was nailed to the wood:

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of **ordinances** that was against us, which was contrary to us, and **took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross**;

>>>Does it release Christians from the law prohibiting sexual immorality?

Does it release Christians from the law respecting the Seventh-day Sabbath?

Go down the entire Ten Commandments and read them for yourself and see where the New Testament refers to them or quotes them.

Lu 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.

>>>Can you think of any of the Ten Commandments which were changed before the New Covenant was ratified?

NONE of the 614 commands have been or will be in any way altered or pass away until the sky and land do. A deal is a deal. If you you are in that covenant then you are under all commands, not just the ones you judge as being "extra special."

Bill Ross

[John317]

BILL ROSS--

* exempt from every mention of being "free from the law" or "dead to the law" etc.

The confusion comes from your misunderstanding of what it means to be "free from the law" and "dead to the law."

Those terms do not mean that Christians are now free to live outside of God's law or outside of His will. Compare 1 Cor. 9: 21

Do you understand them to mean that believers can now live in any way they please, without regard to the Ten Commandments?

Which one of the Ten Commandments do you want to violate? Which one or ones do you believe the New Testament says Christians should feel free to ignore and disobey without compunction?

See the difference that Saint Paul makes between the ceremonial laws and the "commandments of God" in 1 Cor. 7: 19. There is an obvious difference between them. Those ceremonial laws were temporary, but the moral law in Ten Commandments are eternal as God is eternal.

[John317]

>>>...it will be seen that they also refer to "the Moral law" as synonymous with the Ten Commandments.

This just confirms to my mind that the Biblical religion is extinct. What do they say the 614 commands, "The Two Great Commands" or the sermon on the mount are? Chopped liver?!

Christians can't seem to get anything right. The Bible is a closed book because of the traditions. Trinity, going to heaven, going to hell, you name it, they have no clue!

Bill Ross

Have you spent time studying to try and understand why they say what they do?

Study carefully 1 Cor. 7: 19; 9: 21; and 6: 9-11.

What is Paul saying? What do these verses mean to you?

[John317]

>>>Some of the commands God gave had to do specifically with the condition of Israel as they wandered in the wilderness. Others had to do with the sacrificial system, etc.

So you are a judge of the law then? Parsing the law into "these are moral and these are just ignorable stuff?"

Ever heard of the Ceremonial laws and Civil laws?

What were those?

Do you believe that God wants you to obey all the ceremonial and civil laws?

If not, why not?

[John317]

JOHN 3:17-- >>>Does this help or make anything clearer?

Quote:

BILL ROSS-- It makes it clear that like Gollum, you are not about to give up "your precious" merely under the force of the text.

I asked you a question about whether my illustration made my meaning clear. Why would you take that as an opportunity to draw conclusions about my motives or my openness to discussion and evidence?

The truth is, Bill, that I do not believe that your understanding and use of the evidence contained in the text is correct. If I did, I would accept your conclusions.

Let's try, please, to keep the comments focussed on the arguments and topic and not make them about intentions and motives. It's been going well up to this point, and I would like to see it continue the same way. I think you would agree.

[BibleShockers]

>>>The confusion comes from your misunderstanding of what it means to be "free from the law" and "dead to the law." Those terms do not mean that Christians are now free to live outside of God's law or outside of His will. Compare 1 Cor. 9: 21

In this case, I take it that you mean by "God's law" - "The 10 Commandments," yes? And by "His will" you mean "The 10 Commandments?" How much confusion you introduce to a conversation by your bogus use of terms! How much damage must likewise be inflicted on your own interal thought processes! You are a bundle of confusion! You are a regular Humpty Dumpty!

""

I don't know what you mean by 'glory,'" Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant "there's a nice knock-down argument for you!'"

"But `glory' doesn't mean `a nice knock-down argument,'" Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said in a rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean -- neither more nor less."

"The question is," said Alice, "whether you can make words mean different things."

"The question is," said Humpty Dumpty, "which is to be master -- that's all."

Alice was too much puzzled to say anything, so after a minute Humpty Dumpty began again.

"They've a temper, some of them -- particularly verbs, they're the proudest -- adjectives you can do anything with, but not verbs -- however, I can manage the whole lot! Impenetrability! That's what I say!"

***

>>>Do you understand them to mean that believers can now live in any way they please, without regard to the Ten Commandments?

Paul put it this way:

Ro 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.

And like this:

Ga 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Your presumption that righteousness is completely dependent on "The Ten Commandments" is a false presumption:

Ga 2:21 I do not frustrate the grace [favor] of God: for if righteousness come by [through/because of] the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Ga 3:

1 ¶ O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you?

2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

4 Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.

5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

>>Which one of the Ten Commandments do you want to violate?

I can't violate any of them because they are as irrelevant to me as the laws of China. I am not under those laws. Are you? Evidently so. So the law utters its curses for you.

>>>Which one or ones do you believe the New Testament says Christians should feel free to ignore and disobey without compunction?

All 614. They are not for the righteous [saints]:

1 Tim 1:

3 As I besought thee to abide still at Ephesus, when I went into Macedonia, that thou mightest charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

4 Neither give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which minister questions, rather than godly edifying which is in faith: so do.

5 ¶ Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

6 From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

7 Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that ***the law is not made for a righteous man***, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

>>>See the difference that Saint Paul makes between the ceremonial laws and the "commandments of God" in 1 Cor. 7: 19. There is an obvious difference between them. Those ceremonial laws were temporary, but the moral law in Ten Commandments are eternal as God is eternal.

1 Cor 7:19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

Circumcision was not a part of the law/Torah. It was a toxen indicating that the covenant had been entered into between God and a male. It is not part of the terms of the covenant (the "law"). It is circumcision that places one under obligation to keep the covenant terms. In Romans 2 Pauls plainly teaches that gentiles are not under the law:

Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Therefore, only Jews, foolish Galatians and apparently Seventh Day Adventists are judged by the law.

So 1 Cor 7:19 is NOT teaching "cermonial versus moral law." He is merely saying that it is not important whether your penis has a scar as long as you are doing what God tells you. Don't fret about that which can't be undone:

1 Cor 7:

18 Is any man called being circumcised? let him not become uncircumcised. Is any called in uncircumcision? let him not be circumcised.

19 Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.

20 Let every man abide in the same calling wherein he was called.

Again, you are taking a verse out of context as a trump card over the explicit teaching on the subject.

I would say that one of the main shackles on your mind relate to the notions is the idea that "The 10 Commandments" are the moral law of God. This completely baseless assumption acts like the veil that Moses put on his face that prevents them to this day from seeing that the glory of Moses is vanishing - oops, has vanished - because of the glory that so greatly surpasses. They are, and you are, under the impression that Moses is still shining away behind the veil. Paul says that the solution to this delusion is to turn to the lord (Jesus). There you will see the greater glory, and actually be transformed yourself from one degree of glory to another.

2 Cor 2:

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 ¶ Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament [covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit [breath]: for the letter killeth, but the spirit [breath] giveth life [ie: "the breath of life"].

7 But if the ministration of death, ***written and engraven in stones*** [THE TEN COMMANDMENTS], was glorious [shined], so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit [breath] be rather glorious?

9 For if the ministration of **condemnation** be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.

10 For even that which was [once] made glorious [when God carved it] had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth [the gospel].

11 For if ***that which is done away*** [the carved rock/10 Commands] was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

12 ¶ Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech:

13 And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end [fading away] of **that which is abolished** [the Ten Commandments]:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament [Covenant - the law/Torah]; which vail is done away in Christ [Christians see that Moses has no glory].

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their [the Jews'] heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [israel?] shall turn to the Lord [Jesus], the vail shall be taken away [from Moses' face - revealing that he has no more shine].

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit [ministry by the breath]: and where the Spirit [ministry by the breath] of the Lord is, there is liberty [from the law].

18 But we all, with open [unveiled] face beholding as in a glass [reflecting device] the glory [shine] of the Lord [Jesus], are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit [effects of the breath] of the Lord [Jesus].

1 ¶ Therefore seeing we have this ministry [of the breath], as we have received mercy, we faint not;

2 But have renounced the hidden [behind a veil] things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them [Jews] that are lost:

4 In whom the god of this world [age - Yehovah] hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus’ sake.

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the [unveiled] face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

If you grasp this passage you will flee from the carved rocks as the ministry of death, the letters that kill, that once had glory but not anymore - the ministry of condemnation. If you "turn to the lord" you will see he is unveiled and the veil on MOses' face, which hides the fact that the law/Ten Commandments no longer have any glory, but are vanished, abolished and passed away.

So says Paul.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>Ever heard of the Ceremonial laws and Civil laws?

What were those?

These are bogus, unscriptural distinctions made by people trying to carve out "The Ten Commandments" as "keepers" and "exceptions."

>>>Do you believe that God wants you to obey all the ceremonial and civil laws?

If not, why not?

I am not a Jew. I am not under the Jewish laws. I am not in the Mosaic covenant. I am a gentile. Those laws are terms of a covenant as irrelevant to me as the laws of Cambodia.

Are you under those laws? Why or why not?

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>I asked you a question about whether my illustration made my meaning clear. Why would you take that as an opportunity to draw conclusions about my motives or my openness to discussion and evidence?

Sorry.

>>>The truth is, Bill, that I do not believe that your understanding and use of the evidence contained in the text is correct. If I did, I would accept your conclusions.

Let's try to keep the comments focussed on the arguments and topic and not make them about intentions and motives.

Ok.

Bill

[John317]

>>>Ever heard of the Ceremonial laws and Civil laws?

What were those?

These are bogus, unscriptural distinctions made by people trying to carve out "The Ten Commandments" as "keepers" and "exceptions."

>>>Do you believe that God wants you to obey all the ceremonial and civil laws?

If not, why not?

I am not a Jew. I am not under the Jewish laws. I am not in the Mosaic covenant. I am a gentile.

Do you think then that God wants Jews to continue keeping all of the ceremonial laws and civil laws?

Do you think that God still wants the animals sacrifices to be offered and the human priests to take part in the sanctuary services today?

[BibleShockers]

>>>Study carefully 1 Cor. 7: 19; 9: 21; and 6: 9-11.

What is Paul saying? What do they these verses mean to you?

Discussion of some of these texts is too muddled by the fact that you have a prima facia belief that "The Ten Commandments" constitute the moral law. You appeal to study Bibles notes and other traditions to uphold this. You have not been disuaded from this "strongly held belief" (to use a psychological term) by showing that it is not so taught while the 2 are so taught, so I think the first order of business is to show explicitly where Paul says that they are not. I expounded 2 Cor 2 in another post. That should lay this pernicioius notion to rest once and for all and then we can discuss what this means in these other passages.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>Do you think then that God wants Jews to continue keeping all of the ceremonial laws and civil laws? Do you think that God still wants the animals sacrifices to be offered and the human priests to take part in the sanctuary services today?

This is not my area of expertise. What are your thoughts?

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

OK, my bad. There are 10.

But here they are in all their glory...

Ex 34: LXXe

28 ¶ And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.

29 And when Moses went down from the mountain, {1} there were the two tables in the hands of Moses,––as then he went down from the mountain, Moses knew not that the appearance of the skin of his face was glorified, when {2} God spoke to him. {1) Gr. and 2) Gr. he}

30 And Aaron and all the elders of Israel saw Moses, and the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious, and they feared to approach him.

31 And Moses called them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the synagogue turned towards him, and Moses spoke to them.

32 And afterwards all the children of Israel came to him, and he commanded them all things, whatsoever the Lord had commanded him in the mount of Sina.

33 And when he ceased speaking to them, he put a veil on his face.

34 And whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak to him, he took off the veil till he went out, and he went forth and spoke to all the children of Israel whatsoever the Lord commanded him.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that it was glorified; and Moses put the veil over his face, till he went in to speak with him.

This is the background of Paul saying that they were abolished, etc. in 2 Cor.

I certainly trust that this will break up the logjam.

Bill Ross

[John317]

OK, my bad. There are 10.

But here they are in all their glory...

Ex 34: LXXe

28 ¶ And Moses was there before the Lord forty days, and forty nights; he did not eat bread, and he did not drink water; and he wrote upon the tables these words of the covenant, the ten sayings.

29 And when Moses went down from the mountain, {1} there were the two tables in the hands of Moses,––as then he went down from the mountain, Moses knew not that the appearance of the skin of his face was glorified, when {2} God spoke to him. {1) Gr. and 2) Gr. he}

30 And Aaron and all the elders of Israel saw Moses, and the appearance of the skin of his face was made glorious, and they feared to approach him.

31 And Moses called them, and Aaron and all the rulers of the synagogue turned towards him, and Moses spoke to them.

32 And afterwards all the children of Israel came to him, and he commanded them all things, whatsoever the Lord had commanded him in the mount of Sina.

33 And when he ceased speaking to them, he put a veil on his face.

34 And whenever Moses went in before the Lord to speak to him, he took off the veil till he went out, and he went forth and spoke to all the children of Israel whatsoever the Lord commanded him.

35 And the children of Israel saw the face of Moses, that it was glorified; and Moses put the veil over his face, till he went in to speak with him.

This is the background of Paul saying that they were abolished, etc. in 2 Cor.

I certainly trust that this will break up the logjam.

Bill Ross

Yeah, we need to talk about this real BAD, Bill.

Are you saying that you believe Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3 that the whole of the Ten Commandments themselves were abolished? In what verses do you believe Paul says this? You wouldn't have reference to 3: 7, 11, 13, by any chance, would you?

But if you read carefully in those verses, nothing is said about the Ten Commandments being abolished or even passing away.

If the Ten Commandments did not pass away, then what did pass away?

[John317]

>>Do you think then that God wants Jews to continue keeping all of the ceremonial laws and civil laws? Do you think that God still wants the animals sacrifices to be offered and the human priests to take part in the sanctuary services today?

This is not my area of expertise. What are your thoughts?

Bill Ross

Well, I'm not one to consider myself an expert at anything. I just have fun and enjoy studying and conversing.

I wouldn't presume to give you the "right answer" in this or in anything else. I would rather present evidence and ask questions and let you draw your own conclusions.

As to this subject, of whether God wants people to continue sacrifices and obeying the laws regarding the earthly sanctuary and priesthood-- please read the following passages: Mark 15: 38; John 1: 29; Rev. 5: 6, 9; 1 Cor. 5: 7; Eph. 2: 14-16; Hebrews 1-10; Romans 10 &11.

[John317]

>>>Ever heard of the Ceremonial laws and Civil laws?

What were those?

These are bogus, unscriptural distinctions made by people trying to carve out "The Ten Commandments" as "keepers" and "exceptions."

These distinctions are seen by all students of the Bible that I know of. Go to the university libraries and look at about 20 books on systematic theology or the Old Testament theology, and they will all talk about those things, Civil Laws, Ceremonial Laws, and Moral Laws.

Later on, if you like, we could study this question, and you will see clearly why those differences are made and that they are quite valid Biblically.

>>>Do you believe that God wants you to obey all the ceremonial and civil laws?

If not, why not?

Quote:

BILL ROSS--- I am not a Jew. I am not under the Jewish laws. I am not in the Mosaic covenant. I am a gentile. Those laws are terms of a covenant as irrelevant to me as the laws of Cambodia.

Bill, it seems strange to me that you make statements such as, "These [distinctions between the ceremonial and civil laws] are bogus, unscriptural distinctions made by people trying to carve out 'The Ten Commandments' as 'keepers' and 'exceptions,'" when you give the appearance of having not studied the subject very thoroughly. Is this true?

I thought you were interested in the whole Bible, not just in one section of it. It's rather a significant aspect of it that deals with the Jews. It is impossible to fully understand the BIble, and appreciate God's dealing with humanity, if we don't have a good grasp of the history of Israel and of the church as given in the Scriptures.

[BibleShockers]

>>>These distinctions are seen by all students of the Bible that I know of.

Does the Bible make the distinction? Un, no.

>>>Go to the university libraries and look at about 20 books on systematic theology or the Old Testament theology, and they will all talk about those things, Civil Laws, Ceremonial Laws, and Moral Laws.

So? They will also talk about Trinity, Hell, the Holy Spirit, "going to heaven" and all kinds of other foolishness as well.

>>>Do you believe that God wants you to obey all the ceremonial and civil laws?

If not, why not?

You didn't answer the above question.

Quote:

BILL ROSS--- I am not a Jew. I am not under the Jewish laws. I am not in the Mosaic covenant. I am a gentile. Those laws are terms of a covenant as irrelevant to me as the laws of Cambodia.

>>>I thought you were interested in the whole Bible, not just in one section of it. It's rather a significant portion and aspect of it that deals with the Jews.

?

You didn't ask me about the Jews. The Jews ARE under the law and obligated to keep not only the Ten Commandments but all 614.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>...Are you saying that you believe Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3 that the Ten Commandments were abolished? In what verses do you believe Paul says this? You wouldn't have reference to 3: 7, 11, 13, by any chance, would you?

Let's look at these verses more closely (and throw in verse 14 for good measure). First, Paul refers to "the ministry of death by letters engraved in stones [the 10 commandments]" once having glory, but it is being "deactivated":

YLT:

7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face—which was being made useless,

11 For if that which is done away [deactivated - the ministry of death by letters carved in stones - the ten commandments] was glorious, much more that which remaineth [the ministry of the breath of life, the new covenant] is glorious.

13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,

13 and [we] are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,

14 but their minds [the Jews] were hardened [rendered impervious to the information], for unto this day the same vail [obstacle to the information] at the reading of the ****Old Covenant**** doth remain unwithdrawn—which [old covenant - the law as represented by the carved rocsk] in Christ is being made useless [deactivated]—

>>>But if you read carefully in those verses, nothing is said about the Ten Commandments being abolished or even passing away.

"Abolished" has legal connotations and is not the right word. "Deactivated" is better or even better, "brought to no effect" or "nullified".

>>>If the Ten Commandments did not pass away, then what did pass away?

The shine on Moses' face, the ministry of death written in rocks (the ten commandments) and the "old covenant."

But of course, the 10 commandments remain glorious to the Jews, the foolish Galatians and the Seventh Day Adventists. Paul, of course, refused to glory in it, but counted his conformity to the law as "[censored]":

Phil 3:

3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit [breath], and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

4 ¶ Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:

5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;

6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; ***touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless***.

7 ***But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ***.

8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, ***and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ***,

9 ¶ And be found in him, ***not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law***, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Ga 6: YLT

12 as many as are willing to make a good appearance in the flesh, these constrain you to be circumcised—only that for the cross of the Christ they may not be persecuted,

13 for ***neither do those circumcised themselves keep the law***, but they wish you to be circumcised, that in your flesh they may glory.

14 And for me, let it not be—to glory, except in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which to me the world hath been crucified, and I to the world;

15 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;

16 and as many as by this rule do walk—peace upon them, and kindness, and on the Israel of God!

In John 10:1-16, Jesus claims to be the promised "good shepherd." He leads the flock of God (the faithful Jews) out of their corral (the law) to join with the gentile believers in a new flock, unconstrained by the corral. This is Paul's "new man" where the wall of Torah that divided is broken down:

Eph 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>...As to this subject, of whether God wants people to continue sacrifices and obeying the laws regarding the earthly sanctuary and priesthood-- read the following passages:

Your original questions were:

>>>Do you think then that God wants Jews to continue keeping all of the ceremonial laws and civil laws?

Do you think that God still wants the animals sacrifices to be offered and the human priests to take part in the sanctuary services today?

I'll assume you mean from the NT perspective, and particularly from these passages.

Simply put, though, from Paul's perspectives, God never wanted any of that stuff. But, a deal's a deal. And to anyone under the terms of the covenant, then or now, none of it can ever be altered or repealed. So, for anyone under the law (Jews, foolish Galatians and Seventh Day Adventists) every obligation (with no bogus distinction of moral versus civil or ceremonial) - every jot and tittle - remains in force until the sky and land pass away and all is fulfilled.

The NT perspective is that what God wants is for Jews to die to the law and become ex-Jews and to become Christians.

Except that he doesn't really want that either. He wants them to be hardened to the gospel and be damned (to death) so that he can be glorified by showing off how powerful and wrathful he can be.

Later, when Jesus comes back to conquer the promised land, the Jews will say "blessed is he that comes in the name of the lord" and all of Israel will be saved.

So what God wants for the Jews is three things:

* that they stumble over their law so that they cling to Torah and not become justified and be damned

* later, when Jesus comes back, for those Jews to be forgiven and become holy

That is the view from here.

Bill Ross

[BibleShockers]

>>>Do you think then that God wants Jews to continue keeping all of the ceremonial laws and civil laws?

Not only does the Bible not teach the concept of three kinds of laws:

* moral law - you must keep these, even after you die to the law;

* civil law - never mind about these, these were stupid laws anyway;

* ceremonial laws - these were abolished and replaced with Jesus;

...but it specifically, explicitly and repeatedly repudiates the idea:

Mt 5:

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy [parse] the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil [unparse].

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Jas 2:11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

Jas 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Four strikes and you are out.

The Biblical concept is not a Trinity law, but a unity law. What is the deal with "Christians" that they want Trinities?

How is it that you think your traditional terms to be so smart that you think you can interpret the Bible by them?

Nu 22:18 And Balaam answered and said unto the servants of Balak, If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the word of the LORD my God, to do less or more.

Nu 24:13 If Balak would give me his house full of silver and gold, I cannot go beyond the commandment of the LORD, to do either good or bad of mine own mind; but what the LORD saith, that will I speak?

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>These distinctions are seen by all students of the Bible that I know of.

Does the Bible make the distinction? Un, no.

>>>Go to the university libraries and look at about 20 books on systematic theology or the Old Testament theology, and they will all talk about those things, Civil Laws, Ceremonial Laws, and Moral Laws.

So? They will also talk about Trinity, Hell, the Holy Spirit, "going to heaven" and all kinds of other foolishness as well.

It helps to read and become well acquainted with the evidence that is brought to the topic.

The Bible very definitely makes clear distinctions between the ceremonial laws, the moral laws and civil laws.

The fact that a book might contain some things you disagree with does not mean it contains nothing positive or true.

[John317]

... You didn't ask me about the Jews. The Jews ARE under the law and obligated to keep not only the Ten Commandments but all 614.

Bill Ross

Are you saying then that you believe the Bible teaches that God wants the modern Jews to continue sacrificing animals?

[BibleShockers]

>>>...The Bible very definitely makes clear distinctions between the ceremonial laws, the moral laws and civil laws...

Where?

Bill Ross

[John317]

>>>...Are you saying that you believe Paul wrote in 2 Cor 3 that the Ten Commandments were abolished? In what verses do you believe Paul says this? You wouldn't have reference to 3: 7, 11, 13, by any chance, would you?

Let's look at these verses more closely (and throw in verse 14 for good measure). First, Paul refers to "the ministry of death by letters engraved in stones [the 10 commandments]" once having glory, but it is being "deactivated":

YLT:

7 and if the ministration of the death, in letters, engraved in stones, came in glory, so that the sons of Israel were not able to look stedfastly to the face of Moses, because of the glory of his face—which was being made useless,

11 For if that which is done away [deactivated - the ministry of death by letters carved in stones - the ten commandments] was glorious, much more that which remaineth [the ministry of the breath of life, the new covenant] is glorious.

13 and are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,

13 and [we] are not as Moses, who was putting a vail upon his own face, for the sons of Israel not stedfastly to look to the end of that which is being made useless,

14 but their minds [the Jews] were hardened [rendered impervious to the information], for unto this day the same vail [obstacle to the information] at the reading of the ****Old Covenant**** doth remain unwithdrawn—which [old covenant - the law as represented by the carved rocsk] in Christ is being made useless [deactivated]—

>>>But if you read carefully in those verses, nothing is said about the Ten Commandments being abolished or even passing away.

"Abolished" has legal connotations and is not the right word. "Deactivated" is better or even better, "brought to no effect" or "nullified".

What is sin?

The Old Covenant is not the Ten Commandments. The Old Covenant concerned the Ten Commandments. See Exodus 19: 1-8; 24: 1-8; 34: 10-28. The Ten Commandments are the legal basis of the Old Covenant. God made a promise concerning them, and the people accepted that promise and said they would obey them. That is the Old Covenant. It was ratified by the shedding of the blood of animals.

The Ten Commandments are also the legal basis of the New Covenant. That did not change. The New Covenant is new and better and superior because the promises are better and superior. It was ratified by the blood of Jesus Christ, who is God in the flesh. God did not send a creature to die for us, but God Himself came to this earth and lived and died for us, and was raised from the dead-- all because of His love for you and me and every other human being on the face of this earth who will put their faith in Him.