Do scars remain in Jesus' feet and hands?

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

I recall you questioning whether I posted addressing Daniel 8 ‘astronomically’ or ‘astrologically’...

(I’ve not been able to access the ‘Search’ function for awhile, now... so, am unable to respond – pointedly)

That said, yes, I posted addressing Daniel 8 as associated with astrological ‘signs’.

>>Looks like you have studied astrology quite a bit.<<

There is ‘astrology’ and there is ‘astrology’ – it’s all in how one defines it; and, no, my expertise re astrology is no more than common knowledge. The study of modern astrology includes much more and is more complex than my simple ‘mentions’. Its ‘science’ encompasses other such as aspect, conjuntion, sextile, cusp, etc.

>>I don't see astrology as being at all helpful in understanding any of the prophecies of the Bible.<<

Prov 25:2 [it is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

I don’t agree. The Mazzaroth/Zodiac is in Writ because Gd placed it there. Greece/Capricorn/Goat and Persia/Aries/Ram are composites given to Daniel in vision.

It would seem that Gd established a precedent, yes? Precedents establish what subsequently follow, yes?

>>That is different from astronomy. Maybe you are talking about astronomy.<<

I’ve already made the distinction in a prior post.

>>But astrology is about the effects of the stars on our lives, etc.<<

Gd used astrology. It is in Holy Writ.

>>God alone knows the future and communicates this to us through His word, and we shouldn't be trying to find those things out by studying astrology. Nor should we be studying astrological charts or the zodiac in order find out what decisions to make.<<

Ahh, thereupon, it turns; that is, divination.

>>We should pray and study God's word, asking for His guidance and wisdom.<,

Every word, John317.

>>From wikipedia on astrology:

Astrology can be defined as the study of the positions of celestial bodies in the belief that their movements either directly influence life on Earth or correspond somehow to events experienced on a human scale. [...].<<

Well, there is wikipedia – and there is Holy Writ. Anyway,

The husband/wife team Gauquelin of France did quantitative studies of large pools of natal data vis-à-vis planetary positions and other factors – discovering a statistical, correlative anomaly between the planet Mars and athletic performance. It became known as the Mars effect. [/extemporaneous]

I think it incomprehensible that there would be no correlation between man, his psyche, etc, and cosmic forces. However, that said,

I give no credence to purports such as found peddled in horoscopes.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- >>But astrology is about the effects of the stars on our lives, etc.<<

Please point us to the verses where you believe God used "astrology" in the Bible.

It should be in some way related to understanding the prophecies we're discussing here.

Besides your mention of the ram and goat, etc., do you have any other suggestion of specific ways in which it is related to the prophecies?

[jasd]

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Quote:Fausto

Harlot Priest. The Harlot is pictured as a disobedient priestess.

Gold, Purple, Red ... the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold ... (Revelation 17: 4)

[...]

Gold, Purple, Red, Blue. And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle: and they shall make holy garments for Aaron your brother, and his sons, that he may minister to me in the priest's office. And they shall take gold, and blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen. (Exodus 28: 4-5)

Notice that the whore is missing the color blue. What color does this represent?

Blue Law. And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying, Speak to the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: And it shall be to you for a fringe, that you may look upon it, and remember all the commandments of the Lord, [...]

So, what we see is the symbolism that the Great Whore represents a false priestly role, that is lacking the Law of God. It does not include all of God's ten Commandment Law and the result is prostitution.

Antichrist. The harlot and the beast are portrayed together as the Antichrist, or a rival of Christ.

I find the above, by and large, interesting and informative. That said,

several points arise: I find it difficult to correlate comparative colors as establishing that the “Harlot” is a disobedient priestess. I mean, those colors serve equally well to acknowledge that the wealthy favor those colors. Also,

the missing color blue vis-à-vis the Harlot – might be found in one or more of the stones which adorned her. As per the color blue vis-à-vis Exodus 28 – that color is found several times over elsewhere than upon the ribbanded fringe. Per the ribband blue:

Numbers 15:38 Speak unto the children of Israel, and bid them that they make them fringes in the borders of their garments throughout their generations, and that they put upon the fringe of the borders a ribband of blue: (the dye used for the color blue came from a small gland of the murex snail – the dye was so expensive {equivalent to $96,000 per one pound of dyed cloth at the time Lydia sold her ‘purple’} that the “ribband” was, in all likelihood the single thread woven in each tassel)

You may find it interesting that the fringes/tassels comprised a language of – knots, numbering 613 – the same number as the Mosaic laws. One might proffer that there existed in Central American civilizations of antiquity a similitude, which employed a language of knots in their ‘mathematical sciences’. I suppose some might carry it further and say that there is a similarity of sorts between the OT knotted fringes/tassels to rosary beads.

The fringes/tassels on those ancient garments (later to evolve becoming today’s prayer shawls) had an exceptional salience in that the corner fringes were knotted in a manner that declared Gd King of Kings, and Lord of Lords.

Rev 19:16 And he hath on [his] vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.

Riding upon a [white] horse, several corner tassels of the shawl would lie upon the thigh.

Revelation 19 portrays Jesus Christ.

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Quote:Fausto

It does not include all of God's ten Commandment Law and the result is prostitution.

Antichrist. The harlot and the beast are portrayed together as the Antichrist, or a rival of Christ.

It may be benefit us to know that the knots upon the fringes/tassels of the garment/shawl – represented the 613 laws more commonly known as the Mosaic laws.

So, who do you think is the Antichrist? Do you subscribe to the purport that both the ‘beast’ and the harlot represent one entity?

(addendum: Jews today say the color blue on their shawls represent heaven with the color white representing the Ruach - which we translate as the HS)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: JOhn 317

Now that you've mentioned them, could you give those other 3 identifying marks along with their references?

I'll give it a bash John!

11) It was wounded to death then healed (rev 13:3;12) wounded to death - Pope captured by Berthier and taken captive (1798), healed - papacy restored by Mussolinin (1929)

12) It will be on earth till the second coming (Dan 7:21,22)

13) It will think to change times and laws (Dan 7:25), LAWS - observance of 4th commandment changed from Sabbath to Sunday, changes to calendar (Gregorian - currently used)

I think it is these three hopefully I did not repeat yours!

Those are excellent, Fausto.

#12 actually shows that this power cannot possibly be a single individual as many people today believe. It goes without saying that no single man could live for well over 1,500 years; but a state/religious institution headed by a man most definitely could-- and in fact has!

Also, there is no power except one that came out of the Roman Empire, thought to change the time aspect of God's law, and has exists from the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire right up to our day, almost 2,000 years later.

This would mean that the power we are discussing exists today, right now.

Now if you put all of those identifying marks together, there is absolutely no mistaking its identify.

But we could add at least one more identifying mark:

#14) This power will take his seat in the temple of God showing himself that he is God: (2 Thess. 2: 4.) What is the temple of God but His church.

So this power will be part of the church.

Has any power, which arose out of Rome and attempted to change God's law, ever claimed to occupy the place or role of God on earth?

This is amazing evidence when put alongside other verses in Revelation which show that the little horn power is both a church and a state. Who can that be, when one puts all 14 of these identifying marks together?

[Fausto]

So, who do you think is the Antichrist? Do you subscribe to the purport that both the ‘beast’ and the harlot represent one entity?

To me it is the RCC (Harlot = disobedient church as a woman = church from prophecy)

Here are all the symbols Symbols

Revelation 17:4 Woman in red and purple ~ The apostate church

Background

We learned that in symbolic Bible Prophecy, a "woman" is symbolic of a church and a beast is a kingdom. Here we see a power represented both as a church and a state.

Because the woman rides the beast, she is in the controlling position. Previous

prophecies showed this union of church and state as a beast which controls religious affairs. It speaks against God and persecutes the people of God. Here the prophecy gives an enlargement. That power is actually two. It is a church that controls the governments of the world and a world controlled by the church and the state. Let us identify the lady and the dragon.

To expand further would be a waste, go to Harlot riding beast the whole reference and study is presented there!

[John317]

To expand further would be a waste, go to Harlot riding beast the whole reference and study is presented there!

Terrific Bible studies there. Some of the best and most complete on that subject that I've seen.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Gd used astrology. It is in Holy Writ.

>>Please point us to the verses where you believe God used "astrology" in the Bible.<<

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Mazzaroth/Zodiac/twelve constellations

I’ve made this point before.

>>It should be in some way related to understanding the prophecies we're discussing here.<<

Perhaps, it does – if we can approach the matter in a more clinical manner – rather than denominationally.

>>Besides your mention of the ram and goat, etc., do you have any other suggestion of specific ways in which it is related to the prophecies?<<

I’ve mentioned the British Isles Lion (with its Eagle’s wings representing, perhaps, an aspect alluding to America).

The Bear, similarly, may have portended the Russian-sponsored USSR. Is Russia universally recognized by the symbol – Bear? Indeed. Perhaps, of note – the USSR was the only entity in the UN having three votes. Bones have ‘historically’ been associated with counting. Mebbe,

we ought be looking to France for fulfillment of certain prophecies, instead of Rome. Y’know, Avignon? spirits like Frogs?

Anyway, the above would not be temporally forcing Writ.

C’mon, it’s only me, jasd. :-o

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

So, who do you think is the Antichrist? Do you subscribe to the purport that both the ‘beast’ and the harlot represent one entity?

>>To me it is the RCC (Harlot = disobedient church as a woman = church from prophecy)<<

The NT church was given the Great Commission to...

Matt 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

Matt 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

It is indisputable that the RCC fulfilled verse 19. I suppose your contention lies with your understanding of verse 20, yes? Please, delineate.

>>Here are all the symbols Symbols<<

Thanks. I found the site very fanciful.

>>Revelation 17:4 Woman in red and purple ~ The apostate church<<

Is it your understanding that a ‘woman’ always represents a church in Bible symbology?

>>We learned that in symbolic Bible Prophecy, a "woman" is symbolic of a church and a beast is a kingdom. Here we see a power represented both as a church and a state.<< [ed.jasd]

Rev 17:3 So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

Did I not read in an earlier post that the RCC church was represented by a ‘little horn’ upon the beast, which had previously uprooted and subdued three other ‘horns/kingdoms’ before it? Yet, here we have in the above an assertion that it is the beast itself which symbolizes the RCC church. Are you advancing the fact that

this beast of Revelation 17 represents the RCC church prior to the ‘uprooting/subduing’ of the three kingdoms of the defunct Roman Empire?

>>Previous prophecies showed this union of church and state as a beast which controls religious affairs. It speaks against God and persecutes the people of God. Here the prophecy gives an enlargement.<< [ed.jasd]

Let me see, the “enlargement” reverts to the prior condition when the beast had all of its ten horns..., am I understanding it correctly?

>>That power is actually two. It is a church that controls the governments of the world and a world controlled by the church and the state. Let us identify the lady and the dragon.<<

Sorry, guess I’m a little slow on the uptake.

>>To expand further would be a waste,<<

That, it may be.

>>go to Harlot riding beast the whole reference and study is presented there!<<

Went there. Interesting. Encountered the part I previously parsed, to wit:

“Harlot Priest. The Harlot is pictured as a disobedient priestess.

Gold, Purple, Red ... the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold ... (Revelation 17: 4)

Notice the description of the garments of the true priests, and the colors contained within them. Compare these descriptions to the description of the colors of the clothing worn by the Great Whore.

Gold, Purple, Red, Blue. And these are the garments which they shall make; a breastplate, and an ephod, and a robe, and a broidered coat, a mitre, and a girdle:”

[John317]

Quote:jasd

Gd used astrology. It is in Holy Writ.

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JOHN3:17-- >>Please point us to the verses where you believe God used "astrology" in the Bible.<<

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JASD-- Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Mazzaroth/Zodiac/twelve constellations

OK, but all that verse does is mention the existence of those constellations. It does not say that they are related to astrology, nor does the verse contain anything indicating that God's people should get involved in it. In the verse God is asking Job if he can make all those stars appear. Obviously he can't. In other words, God alone has power to control the stars and the heavens.

Notice what a good and godly King, Josiah, did in 2 Kings 23:5---

5 He put away the idolatrous priests whom the kings of Judah had ordained to burn incense in the high places in Judah's cities and round about Jerusalem--also those who burned incense to Baal, to the sun, to the moon, to the constellations [or twelve signs of the zodiac], and to all the hosts of the heavens. (Amplified Version.)

Also Deut. 18: 10-12--

10There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or daughter pass through the fire, or who uses divination, or is a soothsayer, or an augur, or a sorcerer,

11Or a charmer, or a medium, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

12For all who do these things are an abomination to the Lord, and it is because of these abominable practices that the Lord your God is driving them out before you.

Also check out Is. 3:2; Judges 27: 9; Jer. 29: 8; and Ezek. 22: 28.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17--->>It [astrology which you have brought up] should be in some way related to understanding the prophecies we're discussing here.<<

Perhaps, it does – if we can approach the matter in a more clinical manner – rather than denominationally.

I don't feel that I am approaching it denominationally. I am open to anything that is related to the prophecies or that you may feel is related to them.

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JASD-- I’ve mentioned the British Isles Lion (with its Eagle’s wings representing, perhaps, an aspect alluding to America).

The Bear, similarly, may have portended the Russian-sponsored USSR. Is Russia universally recognized by the symbol – Bear? Indeed. Perhaps, of note – the USSR was the only entity in the UN having three votes. Bones have ‘historically’ been associated with counting. Mebbe,

we ought be looking to France for fulfillment of certain prophecies, instead of Rome. Y’know, Avignon? spirits like Frogs?

Anyway, the above would not be temporally forcing Writ.

OK, you've mentioned that you believe the lion in Daniel 7 represents Britain and the Bear represents the USSR.

Let's test this. Take all the things the Bible says about these powers. What does it mean?

Why does the Bible give this information?

Also, based on all that the Bible says about the little horn power, tell what you know about it. Can you identify it?

Give us your understanding of the identifying marks and show us how they apply according to your view of the prophecies?

[Fausto]

Terrific Bible studies there. Some of the best and most complete on that subject that I've seen.

Thought so meself, I actually sent the link home, so that my son Joshua can delight himself, it is very fanciful as our friend jasd puts it!

[John317]

A very important hermeneutical principle is that we allow the Bible to define its terms. In other words, the Bible is its own best expositor and interpreter, especially when it comes to informing us about what various symbols mean.

It makes no sense for the Bible to give us a symbol such as a bear, and then instead of looking for a Bible explanation of what or who that bear represents, to look for an explanation in the world. The Bible gives no indication at all that the bear symbolizes Russia in 2008 or later.

Or do you believe you see such a an indication?

It would be different if the chest and arms of the image in Daniel 2 symbolized Russia, but we know it does not.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Two, three, an even dozen or fourteen years... what’s a coupla years between friends, eh?

>>Where did you get the idea that the "historical facts bear out that the first year of Balshazzar’s reign was at the absolute expiration of the Babylonian Kingdom. The verb tense ‘shall arise’ precludes Babylonia, whether symbolized by lion, dragon, or bull" ?<<

I’ve already laid it out.

>>The difference between 1 year and 14 is very significant because your point is that when Daniel had the vision recorded in Daniel 7, the first beast could not represent Babylon since the vision was given at a time when Babylon was "at the absolute expiration."<<

The Bible allots me “threescore and ten years, and if by reason of strength...” (Ps 90:10). I am 68-years old.

Take my age as analogous to Babylonia. Trust me, I am in my absolute expiration, and I’m counting on more years remaining to me – than the Talmud, (Meg. 11b), allots to the reign of Belshazzar. There is no one who would believe I was in my ascendancy, that is, ‘yet to arise’, “to come forth” (Genesius’s Lexicon). Besides, though wikipedia forwards 533 BC as the first year of Belshazzar, others (Sir Robert Anderson) place it at 551 BC, yet others –

“The chronology of the three Babylonian kings is given in the Talmud as follows: Nebuchadnezzar reigned forty-five years, Evil-merodach twenty-three, and Belshazzar was monarch of Babylonia for two years, being killed at the beginning of the third year on the fatal night of the fall of Babylon (Meg. 11b).”

>>But the facts show that Babylon was not "at the absolute expiration" as you say. Babylon was still very much in existence as a great empire at that time. It would be another 14 years before Babylon would fall.<<

I suppose your point, to an extent, turns upon how you define “absolute expiration” vs mine. I am beginning to surmise that I perceive things more precisely than, perhaps, the “many scholars” to whom you refer do.

Though we all experience, at times, that “Sometimes a great notion” feeling – it remains that it is ‘notional’. May I suggest error on the part of the “many scholars” who advance a present continuous tense versus the actual tense that Gd elected to use in Daniel 7:17. The difference is not one of paucity but of meaningful enormity. The substitution of a present continuous tense where there already exists the future tense in Daniel 7:17 – strains credulity.

Were there yet remaining to the Babylonian Empire a score of years – the dialectical argument that attempts to divert from the actual and the sense of the verb tense – is unsustainable.

>>That means that your thesis above is invalid,<<

I would, rather, say “my hypothesis” – and should my hypothesis be proved invalid – it would not be because of the dialectic position you seem to be advancing.

>>...and it explains why virtually all Bible scholars and close students of Daniel agree that the first beast, the lion, represents Babylon.<<

Be that as it may, I’d say that is because virtually all Bible scholars ran before they were sent – disregarding the fact that Gd sealed the Book of Daniel; ipso facto, the enormity of both their presumption and their error.

>>As I said earlier, in all of about 12 study Bibles that I have, published by Catholic and various protestant groups alike, they all say that this first beast represents Babylon, meaning that this first beast is the same power as the first power symbolized by the head of gold in Daniel 2.<<

My good friend, “every word of Gd”; that would include verb tenses.

>>We've also seen archeological and historical reasons for choosing the lion as a symbol of the empire and city: the lion was used as a symbol of the city by the Babylonian government. The Babylonian government had paintings and images of the lion all over the city,<<

If you accept that premise, you must accept mine re Russia/Bear. Why, the literature extant – making the link of Russia/Bear – substantiates and trumps

Make ye no truce with Adam-zad, the bear that walks like a man.

When he stands up like a tired man, tottering near and near;

When he stands up as pleading, in wavering, man-brute guise....

When he shows as seeking quarter, with paws like hands in prayer,

That is the time of peril—the time of the Truce of the Bear!

Eyeless, noseless, and lipless, asking a dole at the door,

Matun, the old blind beggar, he tells it o'er and o'er;

Fumbling and feeling the rifles, warming his hands at the flame,

Hearing our careless white men talk of the morrow's game;

Over and over the story, ending as he began:—

”There is no truce with Adam-zad—the bear that looks like a man!” (cropped) re Russia –Rudyard Kipling'

>>It also stands to reason, and follows good Biblical principles of interpretation,<< [ed.jasd]

By which rule, what rote,

Whose imagined pattern

Structures the cloistered reign

Of illusions and spectre-stuff. —Goethe

>>...that the 4 empires of Daniel 7 parallel the 4 empires of Daniel 2 and Daniel 8.<<

O-kaaayyy.

>>Please review the following information in relationship to the prophecy given in Daniel 7: 1:

The first year of Belshazzar's reign was in 553 BC.

Neo-Babylon fell in 539 BC.

Belshazzar was the son and co-regent of Nabonidus, the last ruler of Babylon. Nabonidus' first year as king was 556. He reigned until 539 BC. His son, Belshazzar, began to reign along with him in Nabonidus' third year, which was 553 BC.<<

I think the above is wikipedia, yes?

“The destruction of the Second Temple (in 70 CE) strengthened the status of the Jews in Babylon, and it became, in fact, the spiritual center of the entire Jewish dispersion. For over a thousand years the Jews of Babylon were represented by the Resh Galuta, the Exilarch (the administrative head of the Jews in exile), and great academies of learning were created in Nehardea, Sura and Pumbedita. Babylon became the center for the creation of great works of Jewish scholarship.”

I cannot access the quote at this time (my library is in storage) – but paraphrasing from the Soncino:

“As we Jews bow to Jerusalem, Jerusalem bows to Babylon.”

That would be in line with the veneration directed to the scholastic works which emanated from that city.

It is thought that the Talmud was written, by and large, between the 2nd and 5th centuries, this era; that would have included Megilah, following:

“The chronology of the three Babylonian kings is given in the Talmud as follows: Nebuchadnezzar reigned forty-five years, Evil-merodach twenty-three, and Belshazzar was monarch of Babylonia for two years, being killed at the beginning of the third year on the fatal night of the fall of Babylon (Meg. 11b).”

Given the above, one might tend toward the gravitas engendered by the close association between Jewish scholars and Babylon.

[jasd]

Y’know, John317, at one moment I can find the posts that should be responded-to and at other times – I have great difficulty. This thread helter-skelters between 5-6 pages and 23-24 pages; moreover, it seems that some few of your posts will be interpolated leaving me wondering whether I’d already responded – or not.

It is difficult to sense an order, as in sequentiality... So, if I do not respond to this post or the other – it is because I have to review so many pages each time I open the thread.

I’ll keep up as I might. (this is one reason I prefer to post to my “Loose Ends” thread – as I am able to maintain some control over the flow – without its contents becoming no more than some few bytes lost in archives)

[John317]

No problem, JASD. I'm enjoying our exchanges. Take your time. Thank you!

[jasd]

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>>What nation do you refer to? It appears that you are referring to Rome but do you mean, then, that God intended His Kingdom to be "given to" Rome?<<

Quote:jasd

Yes, “given to” is the language Jesus Christ used.

>>Christ doesn't "give His Kingdom" to anyone or to any city or empire.<<

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

>>It is still Christ's Kingdom.<<

Of course.

>>He allows people to enter into His Kingdom if they meet certain conditions.<<

Lu 17:21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Otherwise translated as “among you” or “in your midst”.

>>But there is nothing in the Bible indicating that God gave the kingdom to the Roman church any more than to any other congregation.<<

Well, then, to what church did Gd give the Kingdom to circa the Apostolic era?

[John317]

As far as the first symbol of the vision in chapter 7 is concerned, it's important to understand that when that vision was given to Daniel, the empire of Babylon was still in existence. There are four empires referred to in both chapters 2 and 7.

[John317]

The Kingdom of God is offered to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

One must remember that the succession of Popes began in the AD 70s, beginning with Pope St Cletus, followed by Pope St Clement I. The ‘church’ being referenced, by and large, is the Universal Church.

>>Could you relate that to the topic of the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation?

What church do you have in mind by the term "Universal Church"? The Roman Catholic Church refers to itself under that term. But for me, the universal church is the same as what people often call "the invisible church," which includes all the saved throughout the ages, in all nations of the world.<<

Yes, Catholic is Universal. Other than that, I suppose semantics offers other perspectives.

>>In the first century there was only the Christian church, period. So the simple fact that you confessed Christ as Lord meant that you belonged in the whole church; you weren't only associated with a particular portion of it.<<

True, to a point. However, one must remember the words of Jesus Christ, to wit:

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

There is a difference between ‘churches’ per se, and what text says, “and given to a nation...”

>>This changed about the time that Rome fell, in 476 AD.<<

Oh, I’d say that there existed before AD 476 – the Universal church, at least in its formative stages. Note: the aforementioned Popes St Cletus and St Pope St Clement – of the 70s and 80s AD.

>>Did you know that a number of prominent, early Christian leaders believed that the Antichrist power would not be manifested until the collapse of the Roman Empire?<<

I should wonder – in that St John – in his epistles delineated the indicia – which, by the way, do not describe the Pope.

>>They referred to the prophecies and to the preaching of Paul for this information.<<

Goes to show, many have fallen upon the rocks of erroneous exegeses. :-o

[jasd]

>>As far as the first symbol of the vision in chapter 7 is concerned, it's important to understand that when that vision was given to Daniel, the empire of Babylon was still in existence.<<

The vision concerned matters of prophecy, as opposed to recapitulation of things past or present -- unless, specifically addressed as such. That specific address is absent text.

>>There are four empires referred to in both chapters 2 and 7.<<

But you previously looped-in Daniel 8. How many Empires are particularly in view in that vision?

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Well, then, to what church did Gd give the Kingdom to circa the Apostolic era?

>>The Kingdom of God is offered to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.<,

That is true; however, what then of

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The text refers to “a nation” - as opposed to the individual.

[John317]

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Quote:jasd

Well, then, to what church did Gd give the Kingdom to circa the Apostolic era?

>>The Kingdom of God is offered to anyone who will accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.<,

That is true; however, what then of

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The text refers to “a nation” vis-à-vis the individual.

Jesus is referring to the gentiles. The Old Covenant was given to the Jews, who had the responsibility of spreading the gospel to the rest of the world. But when the Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah and the gospel, it was "given" to the gentiles to do the work that God had originally planned for Israel to do. This comes up at the end of Acts, where Paul tells the Jews who came to visit him, "Let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."

The church became spiritual Israel. It's the topic of Romans 11, among others.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

Job 38:32 Canst thou bring forth Mazzaroth in his season? or canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?

Mazzaroth/Zodiac/twelve constellations.

>>OK, but all that verse does is mention the existence of those constellations. It does not say that they are related to astrology,<<

Well, then, astrology is related to the Mazzaroth; that is, the Zodiacal constellations – not just any constellations.

>>...nor does the verse contain anything indicating that God's people should get involved in it.<<

‘Astrology’ is as corrupted as much of OT theology – and yes, I agree, involvement in it is both proscribed and anathema.

>>In the verse God is asking Job if he can make all those stars appear. Obviously he can't. In other words, God alone has power to control the stars and the heavens.<<

But Gd did not ask Job about the “stars and the heavens” – He asked Job about the Mazzaroth, Arcturus with his sons, Pleiades, and Orion – specifically.

>>Notice what a good and godly King, Josiah, did in 2 Kings 23:5---<<

I do not advocate the study of astrology-as-corrupted – but astrology as Gd uses it; that is, as recognizable language to those to whom it is addressed.

[John317]

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JOHN3:17-- >>In the verse God is asking Job if he can make all those stars appear. Obviously he can't. In other words, God alone has power to control the stars and the heavens.<<

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JOHN3:17-- But what are those if they are not the stars and the heavens?

I'm not sure what your point is in bringing up astrology here.

>>Notice what a good and godly King, Josiah, did in 2 Kings 23:5---<<

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JASD-- I do not advocate the study of astrology-as-corrupted – but astrology as Gd uses it – as recognizable language to those to whom it is addressed.

In respect to the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, how are you using the word, "astrology"?

You may be using it in a way I am unfamiliar with. The Bible doesn't contain the the word, and when I look in history books and in dictionaries, they use the word, astrology, to refer to the belief that the stars have an effect on human life.

[jasd]

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Quote:jasd

That is true; however, what then of

Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

The text refers to “a nation” vis-à-vis the individual.

>>Jesus is referring to the gentiles.<<

Largely, yes; however, how is “gentiles” defined?

>>The Old Covenant was given to the Jews, who had the responsibility of spreading the gospel to the rest of the world.<<

Upon this point we diverge. More accurately, I propose, the above should read, “The Old Covenant was given to both Houses of the Children of Israel.”

>>But when the Jews as a nation rejected the Messiah and the gospel, it was "given" to the gentiles to do the work that God had originally planned for Israel to do.<<

I agree that the term “Jews” is used correctly in the above – and yes, I agree, in the main, to the rest of the statement.

>>This comes up at the end of Acts, where Paul tells the Jews who came to visit him, "Let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will listen."<<

Agreed, to a point. Who are the gentiles? What is the definition of gentiles?

>>The church became spiritual Israel.<<

Without agreeing to such as – Gd no longer deals with literal Israel – I agree with the above, in part.