Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2008 >>As far as the first symbol of the vision in chapter 7 is concerned, it's important to understand that when that vision was given to Daniel, the empire of Babylon was still in existence.<< The vision concerned matters of prophecy, as opposed to recapitulation of things past or present -- unless, specifically addressed as such. That specific address is absent text. >>There are four empires referred to in both chapters 2 and 7.<< But you previously looped-in Daniel 8. How many Empires are particularly in view in that vision? All 3 chapters and visions are regarding prophecy. Daniel 2, 7, & 8 are all covering the same period of time, the same empires; but chapters 7 and 8 each add detail that was not revealed in the previous vision. God repeats the vision but expands it each time, giving more information. Notice the particular attention Daniel gives to the little horn power which persecutes God's people and blasphemes God. That is the focus of Daniel's attention. The vision in Daniel 8 begins with Medo-Persia, then Greece, Rome, and the little horn power that becomes a great power-- ending with the kingdom of God, just as the previous two chapters end with the kingdom of God. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 Quote: Quote:jasd I do not advocate the study of astrology-as-corrupted – but astrology as Gd uses it – as recognizable language to those to whom it is addressed. >>In respect to the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, how are you using the word, "astrology"?<< I am using the prophecies of Daniel 7 and 8 together with other astrological references within the pages of Writ, in part, as does Holy Writ; that is, as – a variant anthropomorphism, mnemonic, and teaching tools – much as the tassels upon the garments/prayer shawls were used as mnemonic tools. ...check you on the go'round tomorrow, time to take care of the animals and call it a day... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2008 Can you give an example of how it advances our understanding of the prophecies and in particular how it helps us to know the identity of the little horn power? Notice how interested the prophet was in the little horn: Daniel 7: 11, 19-21. Notice also that the little horn power is speaking terrible blasphemies during the time of the judgment described from Daniel 7: 9-14 and then again in Daniel 7: 21, 22, 26. The prophet sees that the little horn power is finally defeated and destroyed by God. Compare 2 Thess. 2: 3-8. I'm sure you agree that Daniel 8 is referring to the same kingdoms as Daniel 2, except that Daniel 8 does not refer to the Babylonian Kingdom. Instead, Daniel 8 begins with the second kingdom, Medo-Persia, and takes us down through the third and fourth world kingdoms, Greece and Rome. Pagan Rome destroyed "the holy people," (8:24), the Jewish people, and also fought against "against the Prince of princes," (v. 25), Jesus Christ. (Rome did this through both Herod and Pilate, both agents of Caesar.) But remember that history shows us that the papal Rome inherited the power and the keys of pagan Rome. Therefore what the eighth chapter of Daniel says regarding pagan Rome prefigures the activity and work of papal Rome in casting down the truth of God and Christ's heavenly sanctuary (8: 9-12). John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2008 Daniel 8: 9-12 says, "And out of one of them [i.e., out of one of the four winds of heaven] came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host; and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of His [God's] sanctuary was cast down. And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered." How does the papal system cast down the truth about God and about Christ's sanctuary? It does it in various important ways: (1) It claims that it has changed God's law or that God's law has been changed, in regards both to the second and the fourth commandments; (2) It calls people's attention to the human priesthood rather than pointing them to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary on behalf of sinners, from which Christ sends the Holy Spirit to enable sinners to live righteous lives in harmony with God's will; (3) It portrays God as a God who made sinners with immortals souls, and therefore sinners will exist throughout eternity; (4) It teaches people to pray not to God and Christ alone but to the dead; (5) It says that salvation is based on works of the law; (6) It says that Church tradition is needed to interpret the Bible, thereby placing Church traditions above the word of God; and (7) it claims that it has the power to create the body and blood of Christ from bread and wine and to offer Christ in an unbloody sacrifice to God in the Mass. I see Daniel 8: 19 with its reference to "the latter time" as proof that the 2, 300 day/year is not literal time, because if so, it would be a very short period of time indeed, and would not have caused Daniel to faint, as he does in the last verse of that chapter. Notice that Daniel faints and is sickened by reason of the his "astonishment." He had been hoping that the sanctuary in Jerusalem would be restored very soon, yet here, God appears to be telling him that the sanctuary will lie in ruins and be abandoned for well over 2,000 years. No wonder he faints. He continues to think about the time aspect of the vision through chapter 9 where we see Daniel praying about the desolations of the temple in Jerusalem. Then it is that God sends the angel, Gabriel, to give him understanding about the vision that he had had in chapter 8 but which Daniel had not understood. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2008 This thread on the books of Daniel and Revelation is an open invitation to everybody irrespective of viewpoint. We're in the middle of studying and talking about the prophecies of Daniel 2, 7, and 8, with the greatest focus on the little horn power described in those chapters. All comments and contributions are welcome. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 9, 2008 Share Posted August 9, 2008 >>Let's simply lay out what the Bible says about the little horn power and then look at history and see if there is anyone who fulfills the identifying marks. Please feel free to object or question at any point.<< [ed.jasd] Okay. In light of the above italicized, let’s take a look at the above bolded, especially the underlined. I am put to mind of the various ‘inches’ Pyramidologists have invented to fit preconceived patterns supposedly existing as prophecies or ‘tells’ within its construction (the latest now being advanced is that its geological placement was intended to reflect features of the constellation Orion). If I recollect correctly, there is utilized in Pyramid exposition, the Pyramid inch, the Royal inch, the standard inch, etc... (all supposed and all different, of course) :-o A pundit, taking exception, wrote of the number of multiples of pages in this or that book that would correlate to the measured distance to the moon and thereby – draw inference from whichever book most closely matched the equation I am persuaded that it is a mistake to approach Holy writ intending to back-engineer as methode – that it might validate denominationally held [pre] conceptions. >>...power and then look at history and see if there is anyone who fulfills the identifying marks.<< The first necessary function before proceeding with a thesis is the establishment of a faultless premise. >>1) Arise out of pagan Rome. Roman roots. Daniel 7: 7, 8, 23, 24.<< In my considered opinion, regardless, the purported equivalency between the Kingdoms of metal and clay to the numbers of ‘beasts’ in Daniel 7; a seeming relation between zoological depictions; etc – the necessary premise to proceed with a thesis that forwards the above and the following ‘bullet’ points – is lacking. Without one, the exercise is futile. How can I make this assertion? Once again, Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. Perhaps, it is not for nothing that – the ‘Hebrew scriptures’ places the book of Daniel in the Writings – rather than included among the prophets. Without a sustainable and faultless premise – it is impossible to collate such as the following as a legitimate thesis. Quote: Quote:John317 2) Come up after pagan Rome fell in AD 476. Daniel 7: 24. [...] 10) Be universal and world-wide. Having no national boundaries, it will permeate all nations. Revelation 13: 3, 7-8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 10, 2008 >>Let's simply lay out what the Bible says about the little horn power and then look at history and see if there is anyone who fulfills the identifying marks. Please feel free to object or question at any point.<< [ed.jasd] Okay. In light of the above italicized, let’s take a look at the above bolded, especially the underlined. I am put to mind of the various ‘inches’ Pyramidologists have invented to fit preconceived patterns supposedly existing as prophecies or ‘tells’ within its construction (the latest now being advanced is that its geological placement was intended to reflect features of the constellation Orion). If I recollect correctly, there is utilized in Pyramid exposition, the Pyramid inch, the Royal inch, the standard inch, etc... (all supposed and all different, of course) :-o A pundit, taking exception, wrote of the number of multiples of pages in this or that book that would correlate to the measured distance to the moon and thereby – draw inference from whichever book most closely matched the equation I am persuaded that it is a mistake to approach Holy writ intending to back-engineer as methode – that it might validate denominationally held [pre] conceptions. >>...power and then look at history and see if there is anyone who fulfills the identifying marks.<< The first necessary function before proceeding with a thesis is the establishment of a faultless premise. >>1) Arise out of pagan Rome. Roman roots. Daniel 7: 7, 8, 23, 24.<< In my considered opinion, regardless, the purported equivalency between the Kingdoms of metal and clay to the numbers of ‘beasts’ in Daniel 7; a seeming relation between zoological depictions; etc – the necessary premise to proceed with a thesis that forwards the above and the following ‘bullet’ points – is lacking. Without one, the exercise is futile. How can I make this assertion? Once again, Dan 12:4 But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, [even] to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased. Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, [are] four kings, [which] shall arise out of the earth. Perhaps, it is not for nothing that – the ‘Hebrew scriptures’ places the book of Daniel in the Writings – rather than included among the prophets. Without a sustainable and faultless premise – it is impossible to collate such as the following as a legitimate thesis. Quote: Quote:John317 2) Come up after pagan Rome fell in AD 476. Daniel 7: 24. [...] 10) Be universal and world-wide. Having no national boundaries, it will permeate all nations. Revelation 13: 3, 7-8. Let's be really clear about this: A + in Obscurantism 101 & Obfuscation 234. But what's the degree and where's the University? John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 A + in Obscurantism 101 & Obfuscation 234. But what's the degree and where's the University? Pity there is no others in the game at this late stage! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 10, 2008 Yes, and such interesting, exciting books to study, too. I just cannot imagine anyone's seriously thinking that Daniel is still sealed and that God is unwilling to send His Spirit to illuminate our minds so that we might understand it. In Matt. 24: 15, Jesus even talked in a way that showed He expected His people to study and know the meaning of Daniel, and that was 2000 years ago. Where does the belief that it is sealed and that we cannot know the identity of important symbols and their fulfillments-- where does this belief get us? It seems to me that it only gets us darkness and more darkness. I see no light coming from it at all. Only denial that we can see anything. Should we exchange the light for the dark? The truth that Ellen White saw regarding the future and which she wrote about in her book, TheGreat Controversy, is today being fulfilled right before our very eyes. Think of what the papacy was like in 1884 when Ellen White first wrote it. It seemed be a dead institution. No one gave it a chance of becoming great again. Yet because of what the prophecies say, and because of what God showed Ellen White in vision, she wrote that the Papacy would one day return to its former greatness and influence; and moreover, that it would cooperate with a superpower called America. This was at a time when America was nothing in comparison with some of the great powers of the world. Has America cooperated with the Vatican to bring about astonishing changes? Yes, it already has. And more cooperation is ahead, in a way and to such a degree that most people will be amazed. It's all right here in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted August 10, 2008 Share Posted August 10, 2008 I just cannot imagine anyone's seriously thinking that Daniel is still sealed and that God is unwilling to send His Spirit to illuminate our minds so that we might understand it. In Matt. 24: 15, Jesus even talked in a way that showed He expected His people to study and know the meaning of Daniel, and that was 2000 years ago. To me it is simple...history proves it...what else does one need, when you follow history according to prophecy, you find a lot of happenings that are extremelly relevant: 1 - Christ's Baptism, ministry time and death. 2 - The actual Rebuilding of Jerusalem confirmed. 3 - The full period of 1200 years culminating in the capturing of the pope and itw wound to death. 4 - The date 1844, as the actual end to the whole prophecy, then the prophecy being re-interpreted by the unveiling of the sanctuary teaching, and this is widely confirmed throughout revelation, where many of the symbols of the sanctuary service are used. Hebrews chapater 9 (whole chapter) confirms the sanctuary service as being in heaven, makes perfect sense that we should know the earthly one and its relevance to understand the concept of the investigative judgement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 >>There are four empires referred to in both chapters 2 and 7.<< Quote:jasd But you previously looped-in Daniel 8. How many Empires are particularly in view in that vision? >>All 3 chapters and visions are regarding prophecy. Daniel 2, 7, & 8 are all covering the same period of time, the same empires; but chapters 7 and 8 each add detail that was not revealed in the previous vision. God repeats the vision but expands it each time, giving more information.<< I believe that this posit is centuries old – before ‘many’ began to “run to and fro”. >>Notice the particular attention Daniel gives to the little horn power which persecutes God's people and blasphemes God. That is the focus of Daniel's attention.<< Several things: yes, the Book of Daniel does go into great detail re the little horn; however, adhering to an interpretation thereof – which predates the time when, as one assumes, Gd unseals the book – withstands the very clear Word of Gd. Withstanding Gd at His word does not speak well of those who withstand the clearest imperative – especially when they focusing and utilizing such wrested misinterpretations to critique the brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. Second, the little horn found within atheistic communism persecuted, and still does, Gd’s people. Third, the little horn found within atheistic communism blasphemes Gd. >>The vision in Daniel 8 begins with Medo-Persia, then Greece, Rome, and the little horn power that becomes a great power--<< How does one extrapolate Rome and from thence the “little horn power” from Daniel 8? (one might, as well, extrapolate – with the qualifier – that Moscow considered itself the third Rome – going so far as to appropriate Tsar/Czar/Caesar – even as Germany appropriated Kaiser/Caesar. Oops, four non-contiguous Caesars?) >>...ending with the kingdom of God, just as the previous two chapters end with the kingdom of God.<< Given the several instances of intermissions or ‘gaps’ :-o found elsewhere in Writ, there is not the least chance that Gd may have intended that one be also utilized re the image in Daniel 2? I’d say so. How do we know – if the book was sealed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 >>In respect to the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, how are you using the word, "astrology"?<< Quote:jasd I am using the prophecies of Daniel 7 and 8 together with other astrological references within the pages of Writ, in part, as does Holy Writ; that is, as – a variant anthropomorphism, mnemonic, and teaching tools – much as the tassels upon the garments/prayer shawls were used as mnemonic tools. >>Can you give an example of how it advances our understanding of the prophecies and in particular how it helps us to know the identity of the little horn power?<< / Daniel 8 sets the precedence – of Gd utilizing the Mazzaroth vis-à-vis the Grecian and the Persian Empires. / It follows that He may have continued in like vein re the Beasts of Daniel 7. / Daniel 8 apprises us that the little horn may very well, indeed, arise from the North (rather than from Rome) where it would correlate to the Bear/Russia – or that faction/factor called, quantitatively, ‘little’ within Mother Russia. / Should the Beast of Revelation 13:2 represent both a chimeric composite, as well, a temporal indicator of the Beasts of Daniel 7 – the locative aspect may suggest, again, the geologic area of Mother Russia. >>I'm sure you agree that Daniel 8 is referring to the same kingdoms as Daniel 2,<< No, no, not at all – there is no indicator to lead one to believe that the Goat of Greece and the Ram of Persia represent any of the Beasts of Daniel 7. Daniel 7 speaks specifically of ‘nations’ with complementary parallels to the Mazzaroth and unique in their own right; that is, there is introduced the Lion with the wings of an Eagle (which I proffer as representing, basically, the English-speaking peoples of the British isles and her daughters); the Bear (which I proffer as representing Russia – together with its temporal indicators; that is, the three bones); etc. >>...except that Daniel 8 does not refer to the Babylonian Kingdom. Instead, Daniel 8 begins with the second kingdom, Medo-Persia, and takes us down through the third and fourth world kingdoms, Greece and Rome.<< And, during – which period in our current era – have you determined the proffered theory above to have originated? >>Pagan Rome destroyed "the holy people," (8:24), the Jewish people, and also fought against "against the Prince of princes," (v. 25), Jesus Christ. (Rome did this through both Herod and Pilate, both agents of Caesar.)<< Is it in verse 23 that you find the transition from the subject Greece – to that of Rome? >>But remember that history shows us that the papal Rome inherited the power and the keys of pagan Rome.<< Largely true; however, we might bear in mind the extent to which Greek Orthodoxy may have influenced that same Papal Rome – that same Greek Orthodox that traveled to Mother Russia and her daughters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 Daniel 8: 9-12 says, "And out of one of them [i.e., out of one of the four winds of heaven] came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south and toward the east and toward the pleasant land. And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host; and by him the daily was taken away, and the place of His [God's] sanctuary was cast down. And a host was given him against the daily sacrifice by reason of transgression, and it cast down the truth to the ground; and it practiced, and prospered." Quote:John317 How does the papal system cast down the truth about God and about Christ's sanctuary? >>It does it in various important ways: (1) It claims that it has changed God's law or that God's law has been changed, in regards both to the second and the fourth commandments;<< It matters little what it claims when Gd, Himself, in both the books of Hosea and Lamentations – declared that it was He who caused the practice of the “fourth commandment” to cease. Per the “second commandment”, the sense of the passage proscribes the ‘worship’ of any graven image – not, so much the ‘graving’ of any image – as is seen by the directives to ‘grave’ images elsewhere in Writ; to wit, my aforemention of the lions in the First Temple. >>(2) It calls people's attention to the human priesthood rather than pointing them to Christ's ministry in the heavenly sanctuary on behalf of sinners, from which Christ sends the Holy Spirit to enable sinners to live righteous lives in harmony with God's will;<< I’ve witnessed that the RCC directs its parishioner’s attention to both the human priesthood and to Jesus Christ – whatever He is doing – where ever. >>(3) It portrays God as a God who made sinners with immortals souls, and therefore sinners will exist throughout eternity;<< I don’t know..., the .Org you’re affiliated with states that the soul, being the breath of Gd, returns to Gd. That’s immortal, yes? The question obtaining is – in what manner does it return? Per sinners existing eternally: what, exactly, does one mean by “exist throughout eternity”? >>(4) It teaches people to pray not to God and Christ alone but to the dead;<< I think that is advanced egregiously. The congregations of the RCC pray to Jesus Christ as you or I might. That said, they do not commune with the dead – it being, rather, a one-sided conversation (well, perhaps they do - some being quite ecstatic at times). And do you, together with other Protestors, also subscribe to the state of the dead being one of senselessness? >>(5) It says that salvation is based on works of the law;<< I think Catholics believe in the grace of Gd with salvation extending from said grace – resulting in salvation. Additionally, they believe in condign merit, which equate to works. I’m certain your .Org believes likewise. Unless, skewed by denominational prejudices, it’s simply semantics. >>(6) It says that Church tradition is needed to interpret the Bible, thereby placing Church traditions above the word of God;<< Actually, it was early church tradition – later transferred to vellum or parchment, that became our NT. (this is the briefest condensation) >>(7) it claims that it has the power to create the body and blood of Christ from bread and wine...<< Transmutation, yes? actually, unless one reads the passage as figurative language, the text does lend itself to a literal reading – and thus to the RCC sacrament. I might add that though I personally do not subscribe to the literalness of the passage, I can appreciate the position the RCC takes; that is, text as literal – kinda, like the principle – Sola Scriptura, yes? After all, Jesus Christ’s ministry was one of miracles, yes? >>...and to offer Christ in an unbloody sacrifice to God in the Mass.<< What’s that? >>...and would not have caused Daniel to faint, as he does in the last verse of that chapter.<< Good observation. >>He had been hoping that the sanctuary in Jerusalem would be restored very soon,<< Indeed, the Temple was restored – shortly thereafter. >>...yet here, God appears to be telling him that the sanctuary will lie in ruins and be abandoned for well over 2,000 years.<< Upon this point, I find myself in agreement with you. I suspect that Daniel knew exactly – that Judah was Gd’s sanctuary (Ps 114:2); that he recognized the inflection of the language used; and that Gd was herein, validating the seven-times curse – that is, the “curse poured out”; --that “oath that is written in the law of Moses” (Dan 9:11) The curse lasts 2,520 years – with 2,300 years of that ‘curse’ remaining. The 'curse' began in 756 BC with the Northern Kingdom being carried off by the Assyrians – remaining in the first year of Darius the Mede. [/extemporaneous] >>No wonder he faints.<< Exactamente! He must certainly have realized – that Gd was exacting the seven-times curse upon the COI – and the enormity of it staggered him. >>...to give him understanding about the vision that he had had in chapter 8 but which Daniel had not understood.<< I’ve heard that at Daniel and Revelation Seminars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote:jasd [...] Perhaps, it is not for nothing that – the ‘Hebrew scriptures’ places the book of Daniel in the Writings – rather than included among the prophets. Without a sustainable and faultless premise – it is impossible to collate such as the following as a legitimate thesis. >>Let's be really clear about this: A + in Obscurantism 101 & Obfuscation 234. But what's the degree and where's the University?<< Miffed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 11, 2008 Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 This thread on the books of Daniel and Revelation is an open invitation to everybody irrespective of viewpoint. We're in the middle of studying and talking about the prophecies of Daniel 2, 7, and 8, with the greatest focus on the little horn power described in those chapters. All comments and contributions are welcome. Quote:Fausto Pity there is no others in the game at this late stage! Boring ... ...volumes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: Quote: Quote:John317 >>There are four empires referred to in both chapters 2 and 7.<< Quote:jasd But you previously looped-in Daniel 8. How many Empires are particularly in view in that vision? >>All 3 chapters and visions are regarding prophecy. Daniel 2, 7, & 8 are all covering the same period of time, the same empires; but chapters 7 and 8 each add detail that was not revealed in the previous vision. God repeats the vision but expands it each time, giving more information.<< I believe that this posit is centuries old – before ‘many’ began to “run to and fro”. Do you mean that you believe that since this was believed a few centuries ago, it has to be wrong and cannot possibly be true? Is the fact that it was thought a long time ago the only reason you reject it? Show in other ways that it is in error. Daniel 24: 15 shows that Jesus Himself said about the prophecies of Daniel, "Whoever reads [Daniel], let him UNDERSTAND." JESUS SAID THAT ALMOST 2,000 YEARS AGO. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 11, 2008 Quote: JOHN 3: 17-- >>Notice the particular attention Daniel gives to the little horn power which persecutes God's people and blasphemes God. That is the focus of Daniel's attention.<< Here is the problem with this kind of reasoning here: 1) It assumes something not yet proven: that the sealing of the book of Daniel meant that no one could understand any parts of it. 2) It assumes that nothing the students of Daniel believed several hundred years ago or even later could possibly be true. In other words, it assumes that everything anyone believed about it before our day was completely false and invalid. The context does not require this nor is it shown to be true historically or theologically. 3) It does not take into account such verses as Matt. 24: 15, which prove without question that God's will was for "whosoever" should read the book of Daniel, should also understand it. 4) Until you respond to these points, the whole argument that we cannot know who the little horn is because our ideas are based on principles and ideas of students of Daniel from long ago, sounds rather hallow. 5) What evidence do you have that the interpretations given on this thread up this point are wrong? It seems to me that the best to prove the point about the book being sealed is to show that the interpretations are false and without historical foundation. Therefore, it ought to be shown that the little horn power cannot possibly be the pope, because the pope did not fulfill the prophecies, but some other power did fulfill them. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 11, 2008 Yes, it does and did persecutes believers. That is true. But there have been many persecutors. Hitler also persecuted believers, and so did various governments in Europe, including protestants. The mere fact of persecution does not qualify one for being the little horn power. To qualify for being identified correctly as the little horn power, the power must fulfill all 10 (really 14 altogether, which see below) identifying marks. Can you show that atheistic communism does that? Does it fulfill all the identifying marks that the Bible gives us? Here are 10 of the marks. Name the ones it fulfills and ones it does not fulfill. 1) Arise out of pagan Rome. Roman roots. Daniel 7: 7, 8, 23, 24. 2) Come up after pagan Rome fell in AD 476. Daniel 7: 24. 3) Come up in Europe. Daniel 7: 8. 4) Overthrow three kingdoms. The third kingdom of the original ten was overthrown in AD 538. This is when the little horn came to power. Daniel 7:8, 20, 24. 5) Reign for 1, 260 years from A.D. 538 to 1798 and then lose its world power. In the last days it regains it world power. Daniel 7:25; Rev. 13:5. 6) Make war with and persecute Christians during the 1,260 years. Daniel 7: 21, 25; Rev. 13:7. 7) Have a man at its head who speaks and sees for it. Daniel 7:8. 8) Speak words of blasphemy: claiming to be God on earth and having the power to forgive sin. Daniel 7: 25; Revelation 13:5; John 10:33; Luke 5: 21. 9) Be diverse from the other nations of Europe: a religious and political power. Daniel 7: 24; Rev. 13: 4, 8. 10) Be universal and world-wide. Having no national boundaries, it will permeate all nations. Revelation 13: 3, 7-8. 11) It was wounded to death then healed (rev 13:3;12) wounded to death - Pope captured by Berthier and taken captive (1798), healed - papacy restored by Mussolinin (1929) 12) It will be on earth till the second coming (Dan 7:21,22) 13) It will think to change times and laws (Dan 7:25), LAWS - observance of 4th commandment changed from Sabbath to Sunday, changes to calendar (Gregorian - currently used) 14) This power will take his seat in the temple of God showing himself that he is God: (2 Thess. 2: 4.) What is the temple of God but His church. So this power will be part of the church. Has any power, which arose out of Rome and attempted to change God's law, ever claimed to occupy the place or role of God on earth? This is amazing evidence when put alongside other verses in Revelation which show that the little horn power is both a church and a state. Who can that be, when one puts all 14 of these identifying marks together? #12 actually shows that this power cannot possibly be a single individual as many people today believe. It goes without saying that no single man could live for well over 1,500 years; but a state/religious institution headed by a man most definitely could-- and in fact has! Also, there is no power except one that came out of the Roman Empire, thought to change the time aspect of God's law, and has exists from the time of the collapse of the Roman Empire right up to our day, almost 2,000 years later. This would mean that the power we are discussing exists today, right now. Now if you put all of those identifying marks together, there is absolutely no mistaking its identify. This is what the Bible says. All we need to do is go to history to find who fulfills these 14 points. Is there more then one power that fulfills ALL the points? Let's see. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 11, 2008 Third, the little horn found within atheistic communism blasphemes Gd. Compare Rev. 17: 3. How does the Bible define blasphemy? Hint: Matt. 9: 2,3, etc. Blasphemy is something a religious power would do because it has to do with claiming the prerogatives of God, such as forgiving sins,etc. Also, what does the prophecy say the little horn will do with regards to God, His truth, His saints and His sanctuary? See Daniel 7 and 8. So, while atheistic communism is certainly opposed to God, nevertheless in the Biblical and prophetic sense it does not fulfill the qualifications of the activities of the little horn power. The little horn power is the Antichrist power, and is the same as the man of sin described in 2 Thess. 2: 3, 4- 8. He sits as God in the temple of God (i.e., the church). He (that is, this world power, or system) will be destroyed at the Second Coming. By the way, if you believe that atheistic communism meets all of the identifying marks of prophecy regarding the little horn power, please tell what those marks are and show how communism fulfills them. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Quote: Quote:John317 Yes, and such interesting, exciting books to study, too. I find reading Ludlum interesting, and exciting, as well. He validates what I suspect; that is, the world is shifting to rule by [corporate] conglomerates. But, of course, what kind of criterion does that meet – if built on fiction? One can only extract that which is good and leave the rest. Whereas, should one study Writ, one submits to the criterion, “every word of Gd”. >>I just cannot imagine anyone's seriously thinking that Daniel is still sealed and that God is unwilling to send His Spirit to illuminate our minds so that we might understand it.<< I cannot imagine, given the number of times that I’ve stated I believe the Book of Daniel to have been unsealed this past century, that one might resort to this particular innuendo. >>In Matt. 24:15, Jesus even talked in a way that showed He expected His people to study and know the meaning of Daniel, and that was 2000 years ago.<< Matt 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) I see in the above text that Jesus Christ inserted a time element; therefore, it is my understanding that – taken together with the question(s) directed to Him – there is no justification to consider the text preteristically. >>Where does the belief that it is sealed and that we cannot know the identity of important symbols and their fulfillments-- where does this belief get us?<< It gets us to the place where we stand and wait upon the word of the LORD. >>It seems to me that it only gets us darkness and more darkness.<< That which is sealed cannot give full light. >>I see no light coming from it at all.<< Perhaps that is not entirely true; perhaps, its light is manifested as obedience to the word of Gd. >>Only denial that we can see anything.<< Exactly! one cannot apprehend that which Gd has sealed. >>Should we exchange the light for the dark?<< Sometimes, the dark is the best friend a person has. >>The truth that Ellen White saw regarding the future and which she wrote about in her book, TheGreat Controversy, is today being fulfilled right before our very eyes.<< Not saying that EGW wrote other than as influenced; however, as long as the otherworldly is brought to view, a woman from completely the other side of the spectrum [/hopefully] – Patience Worth, also, used prose masterfully. Well-executed prose does not always translate to deep insight. “...but clouds got in my way I've looked at clouds from both sides now From up and down and still somehow It's cloud's illusions I recall I really don't know clouds at all” --Judy Collins Beautiful, yes? Insightful, yes? Deep? I allude. >>Think of what the papacy was like in 1884 when Ellen White first wrote it. It seemed be a dead institution.<< Actually, the decline of Papal influence in Europe (without mention of the Reformation) had been trending downward since the 17th century – with the “increasing royal control of national clergies and increasing autonomy of the national and local doctrines. [...]”, which continued “...progressively to a state of political impotence.” That reflected a loss of temporal power – during which time Papal “prestige” began an ascendancy – due to the reaction of Monarchists to “the French Revolution and the emergence of constitutional governments...” Further; during the “pontificate of Pope St Pius IX, ca 1846 – 1878, ... papal control over worldwide Catholic missionary activity was firmly established for the first time in history.” Et Cetera. >>No one gave it a chance of becoming great again.<< I’m inferring that your statements refer to the temporal state of things vis-à-vis Papal Rome, yes? >>Yet because of what the prophecies say, and because of what God showed Ellen White in vision, she wrote that the Papacy would one day return to its former greatness and influence; and moreover, that it would cooperate with a superpower called America.<< You mean, EGW also withstood the seal of Gd re the Book of Daniel? Do Gd’s prophets do such things? and, did she actually write “superpower...”? >>This was at a time when America was nothing in comparison with some of the great powers of the world.<< She, certainly, must have read Alexis de Tocqueville (1831 – 32) who came to America seeking to understand its greatness and genius, which was being bruited abroad.... >>Has America cooperated with the Vatican to bring about astonishing changes? Yes, it already has.<< Doesn’t America cooperates with other Xtian .orgs, as well. >>It's all right here in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.<< I find it amazing that a 'prophet' of Gd wrests that which He sealed – and provokes neither query nor concern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Quote: Quote:jasd I believe that this posit is centuries old – before ‘many’ began to “run to and fro”. >>Do you mean that you believe that since this was believed a few centuries ago, it has to be wrong and cannot possibly be true?<< Mais oui! but of course! else why did Gd seal the Book – until such time as I’ve noted in my above quote. For the exercise of beating His gums? [/hyperbole] To demonstrate His proscriptions moot? To render Gd’s word of non-effect? If that is so – what’s with all the “mint and cumin” dialectics re “The Sabbath” v Sunday? What’s THAT!? >>Is the fact that it was thought a long time ago the only reason you reject it?<< Absolutely not! I reject it because the word of Gd deserves more than the short shrift it’s given. >>Show in other ways that it is in error.<< It is Preterism preached – where there is no preteristic hermeneutics justified. Quote: Quote:John317 Daniel 24: 15 shows that Jesus Himself said about the prophecies of Daniel, "Whoever reads [Daniel], let him UNDERSTAND." JESUS SAID THAT ALMOST 2,000 YEARS AGO. How do you read the following bolded and underlined time element? Matt 25:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Given the multi-faceted questions posed by Jesus Christ’s disciples and His response by parts – I read it as ‘after the Book of Daniel is unsealed (time element) – there will occur an event spoken of by Daniel the prophet; that is, the abomination of desolation – will stand in the holy place'. That, I read, is an event yet to unfold – with the “holy place”, as of yet, undefined. No Preterism in view. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Quote: Quote:jasd Several things: yes, the Book of Daniel does go into great detail re the little horn; however, adhering to an interpretation thereof – which predates the time when, as one assumes, Gd unseals the book – withstands the very clear Word of Gd. Withstanding Gd at His word does not speak well of those who withstand the clearest imperative – especially when focusing and utilizing such wrested misinterpretations to critique the brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ. [ed.jasd] >>Here is the problem with this kind of reasoning here: 1) It assumes something not yet proven: that the sealing of the book of Daniel meant that no one could understand any parts of it. [ed.jasd] I made no such assumption, nor did I proffer the same. 2) It assumes that nothing the students of Daniel believed several hundred years ago or even later could possibly be true. In other words, it assumes that everything anyone believed about it before our day was completely false and invalid. The context does not require this nor is it shown to be true historically or theologically. Untrue. The raison d’être of this dialogue has been to address THE PROPHETIC ASPECTS OF THE BOOK OF DANIEL and their promulgation as ‘truths’ – in an attempt to make straight the crooked lines 3) It does not take into account such verses as Matt. 24: 15, which prove without question that God's will was for "whosoever" should read the book of Daniel, should also understand it. Again, Matthew 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Note: the time element. 4) Until you respond to these points, the whole argument that we cannot know who the little horn is because our ideas are based on principles and ideas of students of Daniel from long ago, sounds rather hallow. You left off the suffix ‘ed’ in the above “hallow”. :-o 5) What evidence do you have that the interpretations given on this thread up this point are wrong? It seems to me that the best to prove the point about the book being sealed is to show that the interpretations are false and without historical foundation. Therefore, it ought to be shown that the little horn power cannot possibly be the pope, because the pope did not fulfill the prophecies, but some other power did fulfill them. Again, wrong tense: "but some other power did fulfill them." Why does the .Org fixate upon preteristic hermeneutics? Per “other power”, you may be on the right track... :-o Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 12, 2008 Moderators Share Posted August 12, 2008 Quote: JOHN3:1---Daniel 24: 15 shows that Jesus Himself said about the prophecies of Daniel, "Whoever reads [Daniel], let him UNDERSTAND." JESUS SAID THAT ALMOST 2,000 YEARS AGO. JASD-- How do you read the following bolded and underlined time element? Matt 25:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) Given the multi-faceted questions posed by Jesus Christ’s disciples and His response by parts – I read it as ‘after the Book of Daniel is unsealed (time element) – there will occur an event spoken of by Daniel the prophet; that is, the abomination of desolation – will stand in the holy place'. That, I read, is an event yet to unfold – with the “holy place”, as of yet, undefined. No Preterism in view. History records that in 70 AD, Jerusalem was destroyed by the armies of Rome. No Christians were killed because they knew of Christ's warning to leave when they saw the Roman legions surrounding the city. Matt 24: 15-20 has to do with things that happened at that time. When the Roman armies retreated for a brief time in order for the general to return to Rome so as to be made Emperor upon Nero's death, the Christians used that time to leave the city. Not long afterwards Titus came back with the Roman soldiers and they slaughtered over a million Jews, and the hills around Jerusalem were filled with the the crucified. The Christians escaped because of Christ's warning and their study of Daniel's prophecy. They understood. John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 Quote: Quote:John317 Can you show that atheistic communism does that? Does it fulfill all the identifying marks that the Bible gives us? Here are 10 of the marks. Name the ones it fulfills and ones it does not fulfill. >>2) Come up after pagan Rome fell in AD 476. Daniel 7: 24.<< “Come up after...”? Well, then, what entity ‘came up’ following Matt 21:43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof. and what “nation”, given the historical facts, is in view? Acts 23:11 And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome. >>8) Speak words of blasphemy: claiming to be God on earth and having the power to forgive sin. Daniel 7: 25; Revelation 13:5; John 10:33; Luke 5: 21.<< John 10:33? What is the connection? Lu 5:21 And the scribes and the Pharisees began to reason, saying, Who is this which speaketh blasphemies? Who can forgive sins, but God alone? Matt 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves. Matt 23:27 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness. So, despite Jesus Christ’s uncomplimentary remarks about them, we give credence and develop doctrines dependant upon their beliefs? Perhaps, it might behoove us to avoid setting our pillars upon their dogmas and doctrines. Following, are the words of Jesus Christ: Jn 20:23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; [and] whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasd Posted August 12, 2008 Share Posted August 12, 2008 >>1) Arise out of pagan Rome. Roman roots. Daniel 7: 7, 8, 23, 24.<< >>3) Come up in Europe. Daniel 7: 8.<< >>4) Overthrow three kingdoms. The third kingdom of the original ten was overthrown in AD 538. This is when the little horn came to power. Daniel 7:8, 20, 24.<< >>5) Reign for 1, 260 years from A.D. 538 to 1798 and then lose its world power. In the last days it regains it world power. Daniel 7:25; Rev. 13:5.<< >>6) Make war with and persecute Christians during the 1,260 years. Daniel 7: 21, 25; Rev. 13:7.<< >>7) Have a man at its head who speaks and sees for it. Daniel 7:8.<< >>9) Be diverse from the other nations of Europe: a religious and political power. Daniel 7: 24; Rev. 13: 4, 8.<< I respectfully submit – that the above are constructed and rooted in a premise that is not sustained by Writ. Those [bulleted] points were developed prematurely with wrested scripture. Read: Daniel 12:4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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