Do scars remain in Jesus' feet and hands?

[John317]

Let me know what parts of the Bible study given here that you agree with or disagree with or that you have questions about. If you like, you could give the number and then we could discuss that specific question.

(The Great Image of Daniel 2)

or the kingdoms of the world and the kingdom of God

1. WHAT statement did Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, make to his wise men whom he had assembled?

"And the king said unto them, I have dreamed a dream, and my spirit was troubled to know the dream." Dan. 2:3.

2. After being threatened with death if they did not make known the dream and the interpretation, what did the wise men say to the king?

"The Chaldeans answered before the king, and said, There is not a man upon the earth that can show the king's matter: therefore there is no king, lord, nor ruler, that asked such things at any magician, or astrologer, or Chaldean. And it is a rare thing that the king requireth, and there is none other that can show it before the king, except the gods, whose dwelling is not with flesh." Verses 10,11.

3. After the wise men had thus confessed their inability to do what the king required, who offered to interpret the dream?

"Then Daniel went in, and desired of the king that he would give him time, and that he would show the king the interpretation." Verse 16.

4. After Daniel and his fellows had sought God earnestly, how were the dream and its interpretation revealed to Daniel?

"Then was the secret revealed unto Daniel in a night-vision. Then Daniel blessed the God of heaven." Verse 19.

5. When brought before the king, what did Daniel say?

"Daniel answered in the presence of the king, and said, The secret which the king hath demanded cannot the wise men, the astrologers, the magicians, the soothsayers, show unto the king; but there is a God in heaven that revealeth secrets, and maketh known to the king Nebuchadnezzar what shall be in the latter days. Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these." Verses 27,28.

6. What did Daniel say the king had seen in his dream?

"Thy dream, and the visions of thy head upon thy bed, are these; . . . Thou, O king, sawest, and behold a great image. This great image, whose brightness was excellent, stood before thee; and the form thereof was terrible." Verses 28-31.

7. Of what were the different parts of the image composed?

"This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, his legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay." Verses 32,33.

8. By what means was the image broken to pieces?

"Thou sawest till that a stone was cut out without hands, which smote the image upon his feet that were of iron and clay, and brake them to pieces." Verse 34.

9. What became of the various parts of the image?

"Then was the iron, the clay, the brass, the silver, and the gold, broken to pieces together, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing-floors; and the wind carried them away, that no place was found for them: and the stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth." Verse 35.

10. With what words did Daniel begin the interpretation of the dream?

"Thou, O king, art a king of kings: for the God of heaven hath given thee a kingdom, power, and strength, and glory. And wheresoever the children of men dwell, the beasts of the field and the fowls of the heaven hath He given into thine hand, and hath made thee ruler over them all. Thou art this head of gold." Verses 37,38.

NOTE.-The character of the Babylonian Empire is fittingly indicated by the nature of the material composing that portion of the image by which it was symbolized-the head of gold. It was " the golden kingdom of a golden age." The city of Babylon, its metropolis, according to history towered to a height never equaled by any of its later rivals. "Situated in the garden of the East; laid out in a perfect square sixty miles in circumference, fifteen miles on each side surrounded by a wall three hundred and fifty feet high an eighty-seven feet thick, with a moat, or ditch, around this, of equal cubic capacity with the wall itself; divided into six hundred and seventy-six squares, laid out in luxuriant pleasure-grounds and gardens, interspersed with magnificent dwellings,-this city, containing in itself many things which were themselves wonders of the world, was itself another and still mightier wonder. . . . Such was Babylon, with Nebuchadnezzar, youthful, bold, vigorous, and accomplished, seated upon its throne."

11. What was to be the nature of the next kingdom after Babylon?

"After thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee." Verse 39, first part.

12. Who was the last Babylonian king?

"In that night was Belshazzar the king of the Chaldeans slain. And Darius the Median took the kingdom, being about threescore and two years old." Dan. 5:30,31. See also verses 1,2.

13. To whom was Belshazzar's kingdom given?

"Thy kingdom is divided, and given to the Medes and Persians." Verse 28.

14. By what is the Medo-Persian Empire represented in the great image?

The breast and arms of silver. Dan. 2:32.

15. By what is Grecia, the kingdom succeeding Medo- Persia, represented in the image?

"His belly and his thighs of brass." Verse 32. "And another third kingdom of brass, which shall bear rule over all the earth." Verse 39.

16. What is said of the fourth kingdom?

"And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron: forasmuch as iron breaketh in pieces and subdueth all things: and as iron that breaketh all these, shall it break in pieces and bruise." Verse 40.

17. What scripture shows that the Roman emperors ruled the world?

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." Luke 2:1.

NOTE.-Describing the Roman conquests, Gibbon uses the very imagery employed in the vision of Daniel 2. He says: "The arms of the republic, sometimes vanquished in battle, always victorious in war, advanced with rapid steps to the Euphrates, the Danube, the Rhine, and the ocean; and the images of gold or silver, or brass, that might serve to represent the nations and their kings, were successively broken by the iron monarchy of Rome."-"Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire," chap. 38, par. 1, under " General Observations," at the close of the chapter.

18. What was indicated by the mixture of clay and iron in the feet and toes of the image?

"And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided." Dan. 2:41.

19. In what prophetic language was the varying strength of the ten kingdoms of the divided empire indicated?

"And as the toes of the feet were part of iron, and part of clay, so the kingdom shall be partly strong, and partly broken [margin, brittle]." Verse 42.

20. Were any efforts to be made to reunite the divided empire of Rome?

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Verse 43.

NOTES.-Charlemagne, Charles V, Louis XIV, and Napoleon all tried to reunite the broken fragments of the Roman Empire, but failed. By marriage and intermarriage ties have been formed with a view to strengthening and cementing together the shattered kingdom; but none have succeeded. The element of disunion remains. Many political revolutions and territorial changes have occurred in Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 A.D.; but its divided state still remains.

This remarkable dream, as interpreted by Daniel, presents in the briefest form, and yet with unmistakable clearness, the course of world empires from the time of Nebuchadnezzar to the close of earthly history and the setting up of the everlasting kingdom of God. The history confirms the prophecy. The sovereignty of the world was held by Babylon from the time of this dream, B.C. 603, until B.C. 538, when it passed to the Medes and Persians. The victory of the Grecian forces at the battle of Arbela, in B.C. 331, marked the downfall of the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greeks then became the undisputed rulers of the world. The battle of Pydna, in Macedonia, in B.C. 168, was the last organized effort to withstand a world-wide conquest by the Romans, and at that time therefore the sovereignty passed from the Greeks to the Romans, and the fourth kingdom was fully established. The division of Rome into ten kingdoms is definitely foretold in the vision recorded in the seventh chapter of Daniel, and occurred between the years 351 A.D. and 476 A.D.

21. What is to take place in the days of these kingdoms?

"And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: . . . but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever." Verse 44.

NOTE.-This verse foretells the establishment of another universal kingdom, the kingdom of God. This kingdom is to overthrow and supplant all existing earthly kingdoms, and is to stand forever. The time for the setting up of this kingdom was to be "in the days of these kings." This cannot refer to the four preceding empires, or kingdoms; for they were not contemporaneous, but successive; neither can it refer to an establishment of the kingdom at Christ's first advent, for the ten kingdoms which arose out of the ruins of the Roman Empire were not yet in existence. It must therefore be yet future.

22. In what announcement in the New Testament is the establishment of the kingdom of God made known?

"And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign forever and ever." Rev. 11:15.

23. For what have we been taught to pray?

"Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven." Matt. 6:10.

24. What event is closely associated with the establishment of God's everlasting kingdom?

"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom." 2 Tim. 4:1.

25. With what prayer do the Scriptures close?

"He that testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus." Rev. 22:20.

[jasd]

>>What do you believe is the meaning and significance Daniel 12:4, 9 in terms of the prophecies given in Daniel 2 through 11?<<

No belief structure needed: the book was sealed, period, ...until such and such time, period, full stop.

What does it mean that, per Daniel, Gd both revealed and sealed? Obvious. What He did not specifically reveal – is sealed.

>>Did any of the things prophesied in those chapters occur before our time?<<

Yes.

>>Was anything in Daniel 2, 7, 8, 9 and 11 fulfilled during the last 2000+ years? If you believe they have been, could you list some examples?<<

Yes. No need..., they are self-evident.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17—

>>Do you believe that the kingdoms described in Daniel 2 and Daniel 8 were also contemporaneous?<<

Quote:jasd

Absolutely, if you mean by contemporaneous - that the Ram (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal silver in Daniel 2, and the Goat (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal brass - of Daniel 2.

Am I to understand that you believe all of the empires mentioned in Daniel 2 as being represented by the various parts of the statue-- all of these empires ruled at the same time? That is what I hear you saying. Is that right?

Quote:

JOHN3:17-->>Also, which power was symbolized by the head of the statue in Daniel 2: 32?<<

Quote:

Quote:jasd

They may share similar tenses, but those kingdoms of Daniel 2 have a definite terminus a quo (limit from which), a beginning point; to wit:

Dan 2:38 ... Thou [art] this head of gold.

The originating point for the fulfilling of this dream centers upon Nebuchadnezzar and Babylonia. The date is almost precisely arrived-at.

You've just said here that the head of the statue in Daniel 2:32 represents Babylon. I completely agree with you.

What, then, is represented by the chest and arms of silver in the same statue?

[John317]

John3:17-->>All three schools of interpretation understand the first beast to be Babylon.<<

Quote:

Well, then, they obviously are correct – having a greater understanding of what future verb tenses – are all about :-)

JOHN3:17---There are hundreds of verb tenses that do not alter the fundamental meaning of a text. For instance, the gospels contain many verbs written in the present continuous but which are changed to read like an aorist (or simple past tense). The New American Standard has done this many times, and indicates it in its text. It doesn't change anything about the meaning of the text.

You have yet to show how the verb "arise" or "shall arise" indicates or proves that these beasts represent powers that exist and rule at the same time. All of the commentaries that I have studied teach that these nations rise up one after the other in sequence, not all at once as you are saying. There is a very good reason that they all agree on this point. (See Daniel 7:17)

Could all the Catholic and Protestant/SDA commentaries be wrong? Certainly. But you need to show a pretty good reason why they are wrong, and so far I don't believe I have seen that good reason given here.

If I presented a paper to a teacher at a university who teaches a class on prophecy, and I simply said I am giving him my personal interpretation of something and I have no good reason or good documentation for why I am taking my position against everyone who has ever studied the topic-- could I expect the teacher to give me a good grade or be very impressed?

Do you know of a single commentary on Daniel which takes your position regarding the meaning and significance of Daniel 7: 16, 17?

The reason I ask is that I am thinking that such a commentary would be able to present the viewpoint in a way so that I could readily see the validity of the argument being made.

Quote:

JOHN3:17--- If you check out a Catholic study Bible such as the New Jerusalem or the New American Bible, you will see that Catholics also view these beasts as rising up in consecutive order the way that history shows that they arose. [...] However, they do say that these beasts in chapter 7 parallel the metals of the image in Daniel 2. I totally concur with that understanding, except that it is fairly easy to prove that the fourth kingdom is indeed the Roman Empire.<<

Quote:

JASD-- I suppose one might say that there is wisdom in ‘waiting upon the Lord’; that is, not ‘running until sent’, as it were. When Gd seals a matter until such and such time, one must consider the presumptuousness of forcing it prematurely. When we do not respect the seal of Gd we declare that Gd simply engages in meaningless superfluity.

Explain what that has to do with understanding the meaning of the text today, in 2008? All of the books on Daniel 2 and 7 which I am referring to now have been written in the last 50 years.

When do you believe the messages of Daniel were "unsealed"?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Example: Babylon cannot be the lion of Daniel 7, as so often advanced. Throughout the entirety of Holy Writ the signifier/symbol –- lion -- describes the COI (Ez 19, et al)…, not Babylon.

>>Therefore, for you, Daniel 7: 4 refers to the children of Israel? How do you apply this prophecy? What do you believe it is telling us?<<

I take the Lion of Daniel 7 to represent today’s Kingdoms British Isles, America, and sundry other – basically, English-speaking peoples.

Quote:

Quote:jasd

And the Bear...: Was the Bear ever used as signifier/symbol for other than Russia? Too astrological? Not according to the Bible.

>>For you, then, Daniel 7: 5 refers to Russia?<<

At this point I’d concur with the above and add, ‘and more’, perhaps, Much More. (note: that the little horn of Daniel 8:9 extends itself toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. Perhaps, no mention of an extension ‘toward the north’ is because there is nothing northward toward the pole – meaning, that the point of reference is already in the north)

>>Given your understanding of prophecy, tell what you believe these chapter signify?<<

They signify that the BRI, as well, the great expositors of the .Org oughta chuck some of their hoary theories and reexamine Holy Writ.

Gd, Himself, left the precedent for an ‘astrological’ motif in Daniel 8 (why else, the coincidental application of the signs Ram/Aries and Goat/Capricorn?); after all, the very heavens declare the [redemptive] wonders, signs, and seasons – of Gd.

[melvin mccarty]

Those are bold statements but a certain amount of speculation perhaps? mel

[John317]

Those are bold statements but a certain amount of speculation perhaps? mel

Not sure what statements you have in mind.

How do you understand the Bible verses you have reference to?

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Example: Babylon cannot be the lion of Daniel 7, as so often advanced. Throughout the entirety of Holy Writ the signifier/symbol –- lion -- describes the COI (Ez 19, et al)…, not Babylon.

>>Therefore, for you, Daniel 7: 4 refers to the children of Israel? How do you apply this prophecy? What do you believe it is telling us?<<

I take the Lion of Daniel 7 to represent today’s Kingdoms British Isles, America, and sundry other – basically, English-speaking peoples.

Why? Can you show from the Bible and history why the lion should be understood as representing the English speaking people?

I have heard Herbert W. Armstrong and the Radio Church of God teach something similar about English speaking people being in prophecy. Are you familiar with what he believed on that and do you agree with him?

[jasd]

>>Those are bold statements...<<

Any more bold than the confutation of Gd's injunction re Daniel 12:4? or the unworkable insertion of a dying Empire into a prophecy future to it?

>>...but a certain amount of speculation perhaps?<<

Mais oui! but of course.

Remember,

Prov 25:2 [it is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Oops! mea culpa. I only now notice that it was not mine to answer your observation. Uh, uh, uh,

sometimes, my vigorousity outdoes my verbosity

[John317]

>>Those are bold statements...<<

Any more bold than the confutation of Gd's injunction re Daniel 12:4? or the unworkable insertion of a dying Empire into a prophecy future to it?

>>...but a certain amount of speculation perhaps?<<

Mais oui! but of course.

Remember,

Prov 25:2 [it is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Which exactly are the "bold statements"? Let's discuss them.

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

And the Bear...: Was the Bear ever used as signifier/symbol for other than Russia? Too astrological? Not according to the Bible.

>>For you, then, Daniel 7: 5 refers to Russia?<<

At this point I’d concur with the above and add, ‘and more’, perhaps, Much More. (note: that the little horn of Daniel 8:9 extends itself toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. Perhaps, no mention of an extension ‘toward the north’ is because there is nothing northward toward the pole – meaning, that the point of reference is already in the north)

So, you believe that Daniel 7: 4 refers to the English speaking people, and Daniel 7: 5 refers to Russia. OK. Now what about the sixth verse and the four-winged leopard?

Finally, who is the fourth beast (7:7) and the little horn whose rise is described in Daniel 7:8?

>>Given your understanding of prophecy, tell what you believe these chapter signify?<<

Quote:

They signify that the BRI, as well, the great expositors of the .Org oughta chuck some of their hoary theories and reexamine Holy Writ.

Which hoary theories would you have us chuck? Which Adventist teachings do you disagree with? Which do you completely agree with?

Would I be right to guess you do not agree with the Investigative Judgment?

Do you believe in the seventh-day Sabbath?

Quote:

Gd, Himself, left the precedent for an ‘astrological’ motif in Daniel 8 (why else, the coincidental application of the signs Ram/Aries and Goat/Capricorn?); after all, the very heavens declare the [redemptive] wonders, signs, and seasons – of Gd.

Could you explain a little bit?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Dan 2:38 ... Thou [art] this head of gold.

The originating point for the fulfilling of this dream centers upon Nebuchadnezzar and Babylonia. The date is almost precisely arrived-at.

>>You've just said here that the head of the statue in Daniel 2:32 represents Babylon. I completely agree with you.

What, then, is represented by the chest and arms of silver in the same statue?<<

Okay, so, I am too plebian, is that it? (you'd be right to think so)

So, perhaps, I should not have stated, “if you mean by contemporaneous” – but have more specifically said that yes,

“the Ram (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal silver in Daniel 2, and the Goat (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal brass - of Daniel 2.”

[melvin mccarty]

This is funny I think but I will try to bring in here my statement Quote:

Is Scripture using the same reference points when it talks about ALL the world serving the beast?

mel

No, because prophecy takes into account the fact that other parts of the world would be discovered. For instance, Rev. 13 contains passages that refer to the United States. We will discuss that later as we've gotten through Daniel 7, 8, and the first part of Rev. 13.

When Jesus commanded us to take the gospel into all the world, he obviously meant all the nations that we know about today, and he didn't intend for us to limit his command to only those nations the disciples would have known.

In Daniel 2: 40, the fourth kingdom is described as "crushing all the other" nations. It does not mean every single nation on the face of the globe that we know of today by looking at a photo taken by a satellite.

which has now been attributed to jasd.

Then I said "those are bold statements"

Now where were we? mel

[John317]

This is funny I think but I will try to bring in here my statement Quote:

Is Scripture using the same reference points when it talks about ALL the world serving the beast?

mel

No, because prophecy takes into account the fact that other parts of the world would be discovered. For instance, Rev. 13 contains passages that refer to the United States. We will discuss that later as we've gotten through Daniel 7, 8, and the first part of Rev. 13.

When Jesus commanded us to take the gospel into all the world, he obviously meant all the nations that we know about today, and he didn't intend for us to limit his command to only those nations the disciples would have known.

In Daniel 2: 40, the fourth kingdom is described as "crushing all the other" nations. It does not mean every single nation on the face of the globe that we know of today by looking at a photo taken by a satellite.

which has now been attributed to jasd.

Then I said "those are bold statements"

Now where were we? mel

OK, there were a number of things said there. Are there any statements that you found especially puzzling or bold or that you do not agree with?

The reason the statement appeared to be attributed to JASD is simply that JASD quoted you in a post. That is indicated but it may not be obvious. This happens when members don't use the "Quick Quote" or "Quote", etc. That is understandable. There are actually quite a few people who do not use them. Let me know if you or others think it would be helpful to have something written up to help people with those.

[jasd]

>>Now where were we? mel<<

Who's on first?

Shucks, guess I oughta jes' go watch my rented video... :-o

[John317]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

Dan 2:38 ... Thou [art] this head of gold.

The originating point for the fulfilling of this dream centers upon Nebuchadnezzar and Babylonia. The date is almost precisely arrived-at.

>>You've just said here that the head of the statue in Daniel 2:32 represents Babylon. I completely agree with you.

What, then, is represented by the chest and arms of silver in the same statue?<<

Okay, so, I am too plebian, is that it? (you'd be right to think so)

So, perhaps, I should not have stated, “if you mean by contemporaneous” – but have more specifically said that yes,

“the Ram (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal silver in Daniel 2, and the Goat (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal brass - of Daniel 2.”

The Ram occurs in Daniel 8:3-7 and the goat in 8: 5-8, not in Daniel 7. However, I do agree that the Ram, representing Media-Persia, corresponds to the Silver Chest and Arms of the statue in Daniel 2. And I completely agree that the goat of Daniel 8 corresponds to the brass belly and thighs of the same statue.

The Gold Head--- Babylon (2:32)

The Silver Chest and Arms-- Medo-Persia (2:32) ///////////// Ram (Daniel 8:3-7)

Bronze Belly and Thighs-- Greece (2: 32)///////////// Goat (Daniel 8: 5-8)

Do you agree with the above?

I believe the rest of the prophecy in Daniel 2 is as follows:

Iron Legs-- the Roman Empire

Iron and Clay Feet-- The Roman Empire Divided Into Separate European Nations Which Will Never Unite Into One Again (2: 41, 42)

The Stone that Strikes the Image-- Christ's Second Coming (2: 35, 44,45).

Does the above makes sense and do you agree with it?

[Fausto]

Have a look at the file I attached, it shows point by point how the prophecy is broken down.

Let us just add the last 10 tribes, with the ones removed (3 are taken down by the little horn).

Barbarian Tribes/Current Names

Anglo-Saxons/English

Alamanis/German

Francs/French

Burgundi/Swiss

Lombardi/Italians

Visigoths/Spanish

Suevis/Portuguese

Heruli/Destroyed (493 A.D.)

Vandals/Destroyed (534 A.D.)

Ostrogoths/Destroyed (538 A.D.)

These people also called Germanic tribes, with the deposition of the last roman emperor in 476 B.C., already dominated the european political scenario.

I believe the pope was "crowned" in 538 B.C. (could be wrong) - corrections, anyone?

This is history validating the prophecy, there is no doubts!

daniel2.pdf

[John317]

Lombardi/Italians

What's really interesting, too, is that the Lombards were originally Arians but they changed and accepted the Trinity doctrine of the Catholic faith. Otherwise they also would have been wiped out by the Emperor's armies. Justinian was out to unite his empire under the bishop of Rome.

Quote:

I believe the pope was "crowned" in 538 B.C. (could be wrong) - corrections, anyone?

As far as I know there was never a "crowning" as such. Justinian simply wrote into the law that the bishop of Rome was to be "the corrector of heretics" and "the head of all the holy churches." This law was written in 533 AD. However, the law went into full effect in 538 AD, when the last of the Arian tribes, the Ostrogoths, were defeated at Rome and had to retreat. I suspect that is what you mean by "crowning."

They had attempted to take Rome with over with well over 150,000 troops in arms, and when they retreated, they had been reduced to about 10,000. The historian Will Durant describes them as a "defeated people" at that point, although they survived a while longer and even retook a defenseless Rome two times before they were completely eliminated. But the important point as far as the prophecy is concerned is that after 538 AD, they were not an influence against the religious rule of the bishop of Rome.

This is what the Wikipedia has on the year 538 AD---

"Europe

March 12 — Witiges, king of the Ostrogoths, ends his siege of Rome and retreats to Ravenna, leaving the city in the hands of the victorious Byzantine general, Belisarius. The last Arian power in the West is thus defeated, leaving Western Christendom completely under the rule of the Pope."

Do not let anyone tell you that 538 AD was not a significant date in terms of the power of the Papacy. It was only important because the law making the pope the corrector of heretics and the head of all the holy churches could actually be enforced that year. It just happens that 1,260 years later, in 1798, the papacy appeared to be a thing of the past when Napoleon declared it abolished and the pope was taken captive to France where he died as a prisoner in exile a few years later.

[Fausto]

Well, from the looks of it there is quite an history lesson right here!

Do not let anyone tell you that 538 AD was not a significant date in terms of the power of the Papacy. It was only important because the law making the pope the corrector of heretics and the head of all the holy churches could actually be enforced that year. It just happens that 1,260 years later, the papacy appeared to be a thing of the past when Napoleon declared it abolished and the pope was taken captive to France where he died as a prisoner in exile a few years later.

[John317]

...Quite like the anglo-saxons today, after having so many reformers, basically have a country where witchcraft is a legal pursuit! Religion too (Christian) is very much dead!

It's really sad, even tragic, I think. Imagine how the great evangelists and missionaries to the British Isles would feel if they could see it now. Men like Tyndale and Jerome who gave their lives to bring the gospel and the the Bible to the people. God does have His people even there, though.

[Fausto]

Quite right, one must not count the bad but the good thatthe Lord does, there is indeed people there, just like when Elijah thought there was no one good, God told him he had 7000 faithful people!

[jasd]

John317

Re: Do scars remain in Jesus' feet and hands? (fccool) #178452

>>Under the papacy, Medieval Europe was known as the Holy Roman Empire.<<

Disabuse me should I err, as I’m flying by the seat of my extemporaneous pants, here: Wasn’t the Holy Roman Empire ‘German’ – in origin and constituted only what might have been considered Mitteleuropa; that is, it did not include Western Europe, nor did it include rule of Italy? Furthermore,

the Germans weren’t ever considered a part of the Roman Empire.

It seems Medieval Europe is more particularly defined in terms of dates rather than of territory, yes?

I mention this only in passing –

>>The power succeeding the Roman Empire is clearly papal Rome.<<

Some might say, “Define your terms.” Can the Bible Expositor take legitimate exception between the Eastern and Western Roman Empire at the time the pope governed as exarch over the exarchate of Rome, that is, ...a province of Constantinople?

>>Believers are portrayed as already reigning in heaven with God (Eph. 2:6; Rev. 1: 6; 5: 9-10) in contrast to "those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:8, 12, 14).<<

‘Rapture’ theology? or an esoteric meaning given to “heaven”? Maybe, it is(?) simply NT epistemology...

This doesn’t sound like you, John317!

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

I suppose one might say that there is wisdom in ‘waiting upon the Lord’; that is, not ‘running until sent’, as it were. When Gd seals a matter until such and such time, one must consider the presumptuousness of forcing it prematurely. When we do not respect the seal of Gd we declare that Gd simply engages in meaningless superfluity.

>>Explain what that has to do with understanding the meaning of the text today, in 2008?<<

It should have nothing to do with the text today. The ‘official’ expositors or ‘prophets’ of the several .orgs, should have recognized the import of Daniel 12:4; been aware of the restrictions – “many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased”; determined its confluence and “hour of its visitation”, as it were; and submitted it to the lay people for study.

Today, in 2008 – the Bible student should be vigorously studying the Books Daniel and Revelation. Forcing, prematurely, interpretations from that which Gd has sealed is – purposefully willful.

>>All of the books on Daniel 2 and 7 which I am referring to now have been written in the last 50 years.<<

I have in my library – books and other materials pertaining to the Book of Daniel written during the 19th century, when, I note again: men mainly depended upon mare’s shank for travel and germ theory was still – future.

The books you reference as being written within the last half century – basically repeat the ‘theories’ of those in my library.

>>When do you believe the messages of Daniel were "unsealed"?<<

It is a continuing process; however, that noted: this past century, when men began to run to and fro and when knowledge was increased – confluently. Especially, now.

[John317]

John317

Re: Do scars remain in Jesus' feet and hands? (fccool) #178452

>>Under the papacy, Medieval Europe was known as the Holy Roman Empire.<<

Disabuse me should I err, as I’m flying by the seat of my extemporaneous pants, here: Wasn’t the Holy Roman Empire ‘German’ – in origin and constituted only what might have been considered Mitteleuropa; that is, it did not include Western Europe, nor did it include rule of Italy? Furthermore,

the Germans weren’t ever considered a part of the Roman Empire.

It seems Medieval Europe is more particularly defined in terms of dates rather than of territory, yes?

I mention this only in passing –

Here, from the Wikipedia, is the essence of the information I am conveying:

(1) It shows the growth of the power and influence of the little horn-power/papacy, that he was crowning emperors and kings.

2) It shows the close relationship between the papacy and Roman Empire.

The Holy Roman Empire invoked the legacy of the Western Roman Empire, considered to have ended with the abdication of Romulus Augustulus in 476. Although Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus on 25 December 800, and his son, Louis the Pious, was also crowned as Emperor by the Pope, the Empire and the imperial office did not become formalized for some decades, due largely to the Frankish tendency to divide realms between heirs after a ruler's death. It is notable that Louis first crowned himself in 814, upon his father's death, but in 816, Pope Stephen V, who had succeeded Leo III, visited Rheims and again crowned Louis. By that act, the emperor strengthened the papacy by instituting the essential role of the pope in imperial coronations.

[jasd]

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And the Bear...: Was the Bear ever used as signifier/symbol for other than Russia? Too astrological? Not according to the Bible.

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>>For you, then, Daniel 7: 5 refers to Russia?<<

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At this point I’d concur with the above and add, ‘and more’, perhaps, Much More. (note: that the little horn of Daniel 8:9 extends itself toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land. Perhaps, no mention of an extension ‘toward the north’ is because there is nothing northward toward the pole – meaning, that the point of reference is already in the north)

>>So, you believe that Daniel 7: 4 refers to the English speaking people, and Daniel 7: 5 refers to Russia.<<

Several things: Writ utilizes the lion to refer to the COI. Gd declares Ephraim to be the ‘first-born’ of the COI. The symbol lion attach to all the tribes through the auspices of the first born; more particularly, it attaches to Judah; most particularly and ultimately, it signifies Jesus Christ. Judah’s inheritance is, forever, the sceptre and the lawgiver – read: throne. David shall never lack a son/daughter to sit on his throne. The stick of Ephraim and and the stick of Judah are joined. All European thrones consisted, in part, of German blood – for instance: King George III of England, Marie Antoinette of France, Catherine of Russia, etc.

Where might then be the peoples of Manasseh, Ephraim, and Judah? and the throne of David? (incidentally, Anglo-Saxon is German-derived)

Anyway, what I propose or what I believe is not written in stone.

>>OK. Now what about the sixth verse and the four-winged leopard?<<

Leave something to the .Org’s BRI. All I can say is that the leopard is the most conspicuous aspect of the beast of Revelation 13 if this correlates to Daniel 7.

>>Finally, who is the fourth beast (7:7) and the little horn whose rise is described in Daniel 7:8?<<

The fourth beast, imho, is in the process of rising/forming according as the world of International Conglomerates wills - perhaps, in conjunction with that which we cannot foresee at this time.

As I’ve already noted, the world is presently divided, globally, into ten regions. Its governors are appointed; no elections involved.

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>>Given your understanding of prophecy, tell what you believe these chapter signify?<<

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They signify that the BRI, as well, the great expositors of the .Org oughta chuck some of their hoary theories and reexamine Holy Writ.

>>Which hoary theories would you have us chuck? Which Adventist teachings do you disagree with? Which do you completely agree with?<<

I hope that you didn't take offense with my above quote. I didn't know whether or not you identify with the great expositors of the .Org. Personally,

I think you qualify.

"Man ain’ knowin’ nuthin' cause he ain’ never learnt nuthin'. Is cause he done learnt too much that ain’ so."

--sorta, Uncle Josh Billings

>>Would I be right to guess you do not agree with the Investigative Judgment?<<

Ain’ made mah mind up. The argument for an Investigative Judgement is rather labored – and its particulars – that is, its dependence upon a parochial interpretation of the symbolism re the Day of Atonement is questionable.

>>Do you believe in the seventh-day Sabbath?<<

Yes; however, I believe Holy Writ informs us that Gd removed (has hidden it) it from man – to circumvent and terminate man’s continual profanation of it. To safeguard it – until the millennial reign.

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Gd, Himself, left the precedent for an ‘astrological’ motif in Daniel 8 (why else, the coincidental application of the signs Ram/Aries and Goat/Capricorn?); after all, the very heavens declare the [redemptive] wonders, signs, and seasons – of Gd.

>>Could you explain a little bit?<<

What needs explaining?