Do scars remain in Jesus' feet and hands?

[jasd]

Quote:

Quote:jasd

...“the Ram (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal silver in Daniel 2, and the Goat (Dan 7) corresponded to the metal brass - of Daniel 2.”

>>The Ram occurs in Daniel 8:3-7 and the goat in 8: 5-8, not in Daniel 7.<<

Right you are. Thanks for the save.

>>The Gold Head--- Babylon (2:32)

The Silver Chest and Arms-- Medo-Persia (2:32) ///////////// Ram (Daniel 8:3-7)

Bronze Belly and Thighs-- Greece (2: 32)///////////// Goat (Daniel 8: 5-8)

Do you agree with the above?<<

Yes.

>>I believe the rest of the prophecy in Daniel 2 is as follows:

Iron Legs-- the Roman Empire<<

I agree.

>>Iron and Clay Feet-- The Roman Empire Divided Into Separate European Nations Which Will Never Unite Into One Again (2: 41, 42)

The Stone that Strikes the Image-- Christ's Second Coming (2: 35, 44,45).

Does the above makes sense and do you agree with it?<<

No. First, to have had developed a complete understanding of this chapter prior to the restriction found in Daniel 12:4 would be to confute Gd. That, or, forgive me..., have Him simply beating His gums. Remember,

“every word of Gd”.

Second, we do not have, at this time, dwelling amongst us those who are identified as “they/themselves” in the clause – “they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another”.

There exists at that particular prophesied time – “his feet part of iron and part of clay” - when there coexist “they/themselves” and “the seed of men”. Perhaps, it is a time after

“there was war in heaven [...] And the great dragon was cast out [...] into the earth [...] he knoweth that he hath but a short time [...]” (Rev 12)

etc.

I hear, “That necessitates a gap!” Okay, so there exists a real and accepted ‘gap’ of 62 years between AD 476 (Augustus Romulus deposed) until AD 538 (purported year of papal succession to the Roman Empire). If one can accept a temporal lacuna of 62 years in succession, why not one of 1500 years?

[John317]

Quote:

John3:17--->>The power succeeding the Roman Empire is clearly papal Rome.<<

Are you asking upon what basis do we make a distinction between the Eastern and Western Roman Empire when it comes to the pope's authority?

Simply because there is nothing in the prophecy which indicates that the little horn- power rules or dominates the whole of the territories that previously had been under the Roman Empire. The symbol of the Roman Empire was a two-legged statue, and the legs were said to represent the fourth empire, the very empire which all the world knows followed the Greek Empire.

Can you point to anything of significance in the prophecy that would invalidate the Pope's being a fulfillment of the little horn-power because it ruled indeed at that time only in those territories which had been the Western Roman Empire?

In other words, does the prophecy require that the little horn power rule in both the Eastern and the Western Roman Empire? If so, where is this specified?

Quote:

JOHN3:17--->>Believers are portrayed as already reigning in heaven with God (Eph. 2:6; Rev. 1: 6; 5: 9-10) in contrast to "those who dwell on the earth" (Rev. 13:8, 12, 14).<<

‘Rapture’ theology? or an esoteric meaning given to “heaven”? Maybe, it is(?) simply NT epistemology...

This doesn’t sound like you, John317!

I'm not, of course, saying these believers are realistically or actually in heaven. See Eph. 2: 6. There is a spiritual sense-- based on faith-- in which the saved are already in heaven with God. That is the way the NT calls for us to see ourselves, sitting already with Jesus. It shows how certain it is; for God views those things from the point of view of eternity, as if they are accomplished facts. When we really see ourselves that way-- the way God sees us-- it has a powerful effect on our lives and on our faith.

[Fausto]

Quote:

When do you believe the messages of Daniel were "unsealed"?

Well, the only exception which happened after 1844, pertains the unveiling of the sanctuary service and the investigative judgement, which could only have come after the big dissapointment.

I sincery believe that the fathers of reformation had figured it out by the 1500's, as many of them agreed on the pope being the anti-christ, I find it hard to believe that people still argue with it after so much proof from history!

[melvin mccarty]

I still cannot find the text that says the ten horns rose from the western part of the Roman Empire and that the Eastern part of the empire which included the previous beasts no longer had any part in the prophecy. Where is that text?

mel

[Fausto]

I still cannot find the text that says the ten horns rose from the western part of the Roman Empire and that the Eastern part of the empire which included the previous beasts no longer had any part in the prophecy. Where is that text?

Mel, I don't think you'll ever find it!

The fact remains it was teh papacy who took europe through the dark ages, unless of course you close your eyes and do not want to see it. I mean there are people out there who do not want to acknowledge Auschwitz and what Hitler did, no wonder general McArthur said, "photograph as much as possible because someday some fool is going to say it never happened"

[melvin mccarty]

So first we decide that the Papacy is the little horn and then we make the other "facts" fit? mel

[John317]

I still cannot find the text that says the ten horns rose from the western part of the Roman Empire and that the Eastern part of the empire which included the previous beasts no longer had any part in the prophecy. Where is that text?

mel

I'd suggest studying several really good Bible commentaries on these prophecies. Check out the Seventh-day Adventist Bible commentary and some of the others such as those by Matthew Henry and Adam Clarke. Study as many as you can get your hands on. Pay especially close attention to the reasons they give for believing the Roman Empire was the fourth empire and that the nations of Western Europe are the ones referred to. Perhaps you have already studied these prophecies.

Let's start with some simple questions:

1) The Bible names the third empire. It was Greece. What empire arose after Greece?

2) Study Daniel 2: 40, 41. What happened to the Roman Empire?

The prophecies do not specifically name the Eastern and Western Roman Empires. It simply says the fourth kingdom will become divided. The part of the statue representing the fourth kingdom, the Roman Empire, were the two iron legs. Then it says the divided Romans Empire is represented by the feet that are a mixture of clay and iron. It says the the nations that had made up the fourth kingdom will never again be united. Those nations are still with us today, but no one has been able to unite them. They are divided into individual entities to this day.

Do you agree with this so far?

[John317]

So first we decide that the Papacy is the little horn and then we make the other "facts" fit? mel

Let's not assume that the Papacy is the little horn.

Let's look at what happened in history.

The prophecies speak of the fourth empire that was to follow the Greek empire. What empire followed the Greek empire?

What was the greatest empire in world history that united the whole known world up to that point? All the history books of the world give the same answer.

Do you accept Rome as the empire spoken of in Daniel 2: 40, 41? You might also take a look at Luke 2:1; 3:1.

[John317]

Continuing on the subject of the fourth empire, Rome---

Here's what the wikipedia gives on the Roman Empire and its division:

In the late 3rd century AD, Diocletian established the practice of dividing authority between two emperors, one in the western part of the empire and one in the east, in order to better administer the vast territory. For the next century this practice continued, with occasional periods in which one emperor assumed complete control. However, after the death of Theodosius I in 395, the two halves were permanently divided. The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the late fifth century as its territory was seized by Germanic tribes. The East Roman or Byzantine Empire endured until 1453 with the capture of Constantinople by the Ottoman Turks. Therefore, it is difficult to give an exact date when the Roman Empire ceased to exist, but this article will focus on the empire from 27 BC to the permanent division in 395 AD.

This: The year 476 is generally accepted as the formal end of the Western Roman Empire. That year, Orestes refused the request of Germanic mercenaries in his service for lands in Italy. The dissatisfied mercenaries, including the Heruli, revolted. The revolt was led by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer. Odoacer and his men captured and executed Orestes. Within weeks, Ravenna was captured and Romulus Augustus was deposed, the event that has been traditionally considered the fall of the Roman Empire, at least in the West.

And this: On the Christmas Day of year 800 Pope Leo III crowned the Frankish monarch Charlemagne "Emperor of the Romans" and Imperator Augustus, a direct challenge to the Roman throne in Constantinople, held at the time by Empress Irene. This led to a conscious attempt to replace the Byzantine Empire, with papal authority, as the legitimate Roman state....Although most of the emperors were Germanic, the Holy Roman Emperors thought of themselves as being successors to those of the Roman Empire and called themselves Augusti.

(1) The above shows the growth of the power and influence of the little horn-power/papacy, that he was crowning emperors and kings.

2) It also shows the close relationship between the papacy and Roman Empire.

Here, from the Wikipedia, is the essence of the information I am conveying:

The Holy Roman Empire invoked the legacy of the Western Roman Empire, considered to have ended with the abdication of Romulus Augustulus in 476. Although Pope Leo III crowned Charlemagne as Imperator Augustus on 25 December 800, and his son, Louis the Pious, was also crowned as Emperor by the Pope, the Empire and the imperial office did not become formalized for some decades, due largely to the Frankish tendency to divide realms between heirs after a ruler's death. It is notable that Louis first crowned himself in 814, upon his father's death, but in 816, Pope Stephen V, who had succeeded Leo III, visited Rheims and again crowned Louis. By that act, the emperor strengthened the papacy by instituting the essential role of the pope in imperial coronations.

[John317]

I still cannot find the text that says the ten horns rose from the western part of the Roman Empire and that the Eastern part of the empire which included the previous beasts no longer had any part in the prophecy. Where is that text?

mel

As you will see as we study this subject, there is no need for a text which says in so many words that the ten horns rose from the Western, as distinguished from the Eastern, Roman Empire. All it needs to say is that the ten horns rose from the Roman Empire. Then you study history.

As history shows, the Eastern Roman Empire did not collapse the same way as the Western part of the empire.

This from the wikipedia:

The Western Roman Empire collapsed in the late fifth century as its territory was seized by Germanic tribes. The East Roman or Byzantine Empire endured until 1453 with the capture of Constantinople by the Ottoman Turks.

Also: The year 476 is generally accepted as the formal end of the Western Roman Empire. That year, Orestes refused the request of Germanic mercenaries in his service for lands in Italy. The dissatisfied mercenaries, including the Heruli, revolted. The revolt was led by the Germanic chieftain Odoacer. Odoacer and his men captured and executed Orestes. Within weeks, Ravenna was captured and Romulus Augustus was deposed, the event that has been traditionally considered the fall of the Roman Empire, at least in the West.

Remember that the Bible gives us over 10 different marks of identity for the Antichrist/ little horn power. The true Antichrist/little horn power will fulfill ALL the marks of identity, not merely some.

[John317]

Let's review 10 of the identifying marks of the little horn power. (There are other marks we will look at later.)

If anyone wants to discuss any particular identifying mark, let's do it. So far I have presented some of the evidence for #1.

1) Arises out of the fourth beast power (i.e., pagan Rome)-- Daniel 7: 7,8.

2) Arose among the ten horns (Dan. 7: 8)

3) Arose after the ten horns (v. 24).

4) It will be different from the other horns (v. 24).

5) It will have a look more stout (greater) than his fellows (v. 20)

6) 3 horns are uprooted before it (8, 20, 24).

7) Spoke great words against the Most High (v. 25).

8) Wore out the saints of the Most High (v. 25).

9) Thought to change times and laws (v. 25).

10) Reigned for a time, times, and a dividing of times (v. 25). (For this same period of time, see Daniel 12: 9; Rev. 11: 2; 11: 3; 12:6; 12: 14; 13:5).

#10 means that the little-horn power rules for 1,260 years, at the end of which it would appear to die, but then would return to great power.

[John317]

Quote:

JOHN3:17-->>Finally, who is the fourth beast (7:7) and the little horn whose rise is described in Daniel 7:8?<<

The fourth beast, imho, is in the process of rising/forming according as the world of International Conglomerates wills - perhaps, in conjunction with that which we cannot foresee at this time.

As I’ve already noted, the world is presently divided, globally, into ten regions. Its governors are appointed; no elections involved.

Therefore you are saying that we cannot know the identity of the fourth beast. If that is true, it would mean we cannot identify the fourth beast 2,000 after the end of the Greek Empire. The Greek Empire came to an end about 168 BC.

I submit that the Roman Empire, which arose on the ashes on the Greek Empire, fulfills all of the prophecies regarding the fourth empire.

Perhaps it would be useful to discuss what those prophecies are. I see that you have already said you agree the fourth empire on the statue in Daniel 2 is Rome.

All of the Bible scholars who have written anything on Daniel 2 and Daniel 7 see a close connection between those two chapters. In fact, they are really parallel. Maybe it would be a good idea to take a close look at the reasons for this.

The Catholic view is that the fourth beast and the fourth empire in Daniel 2 is that of Greece. I don't agree with that view, and you apparently do not agree with it, either. The Bible itself, as well as history, give us good reason to view the Medo-Persian empire as represented by the silver arms of the image.

I don't understand your position with regard to the empires of Daniel 2. You stated earlier that you position is that the empires existed at the same time. Yet it is obvious that the empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece, and Rome did not exist and rule at the same time. Could you explain whether my understanding of your belief is correct?

[John317]

JOHN3:17-->>Do you believe in the seventh-day Sabbath?<<

Quote:

JASD-- Yes; however, I believe Holy Writ informs us that Gd removed (has hidden it) it from man – to circumvent and terminate man’s continual profanation of it. To safeguard it – until the millennial reign.

Could you explain this? Where does the Bible say this about the Sabbath? Didn't Jesus in the Gospels, and also the apostles in Acts, keep the correct weekly Sabbath?

How do you mean, "hidden it"? Do you mean you don't believe we can know for sure which day of the week is the seventh-day Sabbath?

Quote:

JASD--

Gd, Himself, left the precedent for an ‘astrological’ motif in Daniel 8 (why else, the coincidental application of the signs Ram/Aries and Goat/Capricorn?); after all, the very heavens declare the [redemptive] wonders, signs, and seasons – of Gd.

Quote:

JOHN3:17-->>Could you explain a little bit?<<

Quote:

JASD-- What needs explaining?

Everything. I don't know what you're talking about as far as the "astrological" motif in Daniel 8 is concerned. How do you know that the symbols of the Ram and the Goat are related to astrology, by the simple fact that God chose to use some of the same animals as symbols that men have used as astrological symbols? Can you show a closer, more evident connection between this motif in Daniel 8 and astrology?

Do you mean "astrological" or "astronomical"? There's a big, very significant difference. I believe the Bible condemns "astrology," but of course not astronomy.

[John317]

I still cannot find the text that says the ten horns rose from the western part of the Roman Empire and that the Eastern part of the empire which included the previous beasts no longer had any part in the prophecy. Where is that text?

mel

A very important thing to keep in mind in this regard is that prophecy does not ignore what we call the Eastern Roman Empire. However, it does not refer to it in the same chapters because the Western Empire was and still is related to the church and the gospel in a way that the Eastern Empire of Rome was not. Remember that the Eastern Empire eventually was taken over by Islam. Here is the distinction as described by the wikipedia:

Regarding the Eastern Roman Empire:

The empire was at the centre of interactions between the Eastern and Western worlds for six centuries. With Constantinople (Istanbul) as its capital city, and lands during the reign of Suleiman the Magnificent which largely corresponded to the lands ruled by Justinian the Great exactly 1000 years earlier, the Ottoman Empire was, in many respects, an Islamic successor to the Eastern Roman (Byzantine) Empire

[John317]

... I do have problem with twisting things to fit a view... which is the case with Vicarius Filei Dei. Well, I guess I would not know either because Papacy could might as well try to cover up the title. If people are to teach truth, then why insert things that most likely is not? Would that undermine the credibility of the message? Nevertheless, I agree that hanging up on 666 issue is silly if we identify the beast and the horn powers. Yet, I think if we are to search for truth and to preach the truth, then we should present the facts accurately, don't you think... as in the case with Pope's tiara issue and Ostrogoth's. Telling half truth does create an impression of trickery....

This from the Encyclopedia Britannica:

"The link between Peter and the office of the bishop of Rome was stressed by Pope Gelasius I (492–496), who was the first pope to be referred to as the “vicar of Christ.” In his “theory of the two swords,” Gelasius articulated a dualistic power structure, insisting that the pope embodied spiritual power while the emperor embodied temporal power. This position, which was supported by Pope Pelagius I (556–561), became an important part of medieval ecclesiology and political theory." http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/441722/papacy

After studying these things closely since about 1975, including taking classes in religious and historical studies at both Adventist and public universities, I have no doubt whatever that the papacy fulfills all the identifying marks of prophecy. Come back and let's talk about it. It is actually a very important teaching of Bible prophecy which I believe the sincere searcher after truth has no need of being uncertain about if he will simply follow the signs. I compare it to a map-- if you follow the directions and the road signs, you will not get lost. God wants us to know. That is why He had prophets write these things in the Bible.

[Fausto]

lets see: Latin title VICARIVS FILII DEI = Vicar of the Son of God

V = 5

I = 1

C = 100

A = x

R = x

I = 1

V = 5

S = x

112

F = x

I = 1

L = 50

I = 1

I = 1

53

D = 500

E = x

I = 1

501

112 + 53 + 501 = 666

Greek names: HÉLATINÉ BASILEIA = Latin Church (kingdom)

H = 0

É = 8

L = 30

A = 1

T = 300

I = 10

N = 50

É = 8

407

B = 2

A = 1

S = 200

I = 10

L = 30

E = 5

I = 10

A = 1

259

407 + 259 = 666

ITALIKA EKKLÉSIA = ITALIAN CHURCH

I=10

T=300

A=1

L=30

I=10

K=20

A=1

372

E=5

K=20

K=20

L=30

É=8

S=200

I=10

A=1

294

372 + 294 = 666

LATEINOS = LATIN SPEAKING MAN (attributed to the pope)

L=30

A=1

T=300

E=5

I=10

N=50

O=70

S=200

666

Too much coincidence IMO

[John317]

Of course, however, as I believe you will agree, the 666 is not the primary or main identifying mark. It would mean nothing if it was the only mark we had to go by, but there are about 12 marks that make the identification unmistakable.

It's also important to keep in mind that these identifying marks, or the discussion of them, are not intended to be an attack against individual members of any particular church or religion. God has millions of honest, sincere people in all of the various Christian churches, and many also who are today in non-Christian religions. The purpose of the discussion and of pointing out the various signs of identification of the little horn/Antichrist power is to draw attention to Bible truth. This is done to help us avoid important doctrinal errors and to be aware of God's warnings regarding events that are to take place just before Christ returns. These will be discussed as we continue the study.

[Fausto]

Of course not, I am well aware of all the other marks identifying it, for instance just the fact that +/- 50,000,000 christians died at its hands is proof enough to me, and those all within the 1200 perdicted years of persecution.

However seeing that we are on this subject, I stumbled onto something that to me, is not clear and it might even be causing controversy, it is:

Rev 17:12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.

Rev 17:13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

Rev 17:14 These shall make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them: for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings: and they that are with him are called, and chosen, and faithful.

Rev 17:15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Rev 17:16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

It is clear however that these appear towards the end of time, so they do not seem to be the same as the 10 in Daniel, correct? Even Kenneth Cox, whom I watched least night at home seems to think that these are part of the EU?

[John317]

Rev 17:16 "And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire."

It is clear however that these appear towards the end of time, so they do not seem to be the same as the 10 in Daniel, correct? Even Kenneth Cox, whom I watched least night at home seems to think that these are part of the EU?

Compare Rev. 16:12 regarding the drying up of the Euphrates and Rev. 17: 16. There will come a time-- after the close of human probation and just before Christ's Second Coming-- when it will be realized that the false religious leaders have misled the world, and then those who realize it is too late to be saved will turn against the leaders and institutions which they believe have caused them to be lost. This is part of the battle of Armageddon, or "the great day of God Almighty."

Later on, if you like, we can study this particular prophecy in detail.

[Fausto]

It's also important to keep in mind that these identifying marks, or the discussion of them, are not intended to be an attack against individual members of any particular church or religion. God has millions of honest, sincere people in all of the various Christian churches, and many also who are today in non-Christian religions. The purpose of the discussion and of pointing out the various signs of identification of the little horn/Antichrist power is to draw attention to Bible truth. This is done to help us avoid important doctrinal errors and to be aware of God's warnings regarding events that are to take place just before Christ returns. These will be discussed as we continue the study.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John 317

It's also important to keep in mind that these identifying marks, or the discussion of them, are not intended to be an attack against individual members of any particular church or religion. God has millions of honest, sincere people in all of the various Christian churches, and many also who are today in non-Christian religions. The purpose of the discussion and of pointing out the various signs of identification of the little horn/Antichrist power is to draw attention to Bible truth. This is done to help us avoid important doctrinal errors and to be aware of God's warnings regarding events that are to take place just before Christ returns. These will be discussed as we continue the study.

Very good point, seriously, we do not intend to criticise anyone for their current beliefs but rather to highlight what bible prophecy is pointing us to, notwithstanding the fact that the Lord emphatically calls us all to "come out of her my people", that being any apostate church, which means God's people are scattered in the many churches.

Well, when I say those things, I feel differently about it than maybe some others do because almost all of my wife's family are Roman Catholic. I'm very close to them and we get along great. My wife has studied the Bible with some of her sisters, who have shown interest in things like the Sabbath and the "state of the dead." One of my wife's nieces comes up with her husband to visit us on Sabbath. The husband's mother recently became a Seventh-day Adventist and he enjoys going to church with us. I've been married to my wife now for 20 years years, so I've learned a lot about Catholics in that time. They're great in-laws!

Quote:

JOHN3:17-- Later on, if you like, we can study this particular prophecy in detail.

Quote:

I'd like that should I start another thread perhaps? It still does not make sense although I am prepared to accept Kenneth's view on it, but I will not discuss it with anyone as I am not sure and that leaves one unsure!

You're free to do that of course if you like, but I'd personally rather concentrate on one thread at a time regarding Daniel & Revelation. In any case, it's very probable that Rev. 17: 16 will come up as we work through some of those end-time prophecies on this thread.

[Fausto]

You're free to do that of course if you like, but I'd personally rather concentrate on one thread at a time regarding Daniel & Revelation.

Fair enough, ready when you are John!

[jasd]

>>17. What scripture shows that the Roman emperors ruled the world?

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." Luke 2:1.<<

It is more rightly said that they ruled their ‘world’.

>>NOTE.-Describing the Roman conquests, Gibbon uses the very imagery employed in the vision of Daniel 2. He says: "The arms of the republic, sometimes vanquished in battle, always victorious in war, advanced with rapid steps to the Euphrates, the Danube, the Rhine, and the ocean;<<

However, not beyond...

>>18. What was indicated by the mixture of clay and iron in the feet and toes of the image?

"And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes, part of potters' clay, and part of iron, the kingdom shall be divided." Dan. 2:41.<,

By inference and by numeration one perceives immediate successiveness through the fourth Empire. The same cannot be said re the ‘kingdom of they/themselves vis-à-vis the seed of men’. This kingdom is introduced simply with the words, “And whereas thou sawest the feet and toes...”. There remains only the mention of iron as semblance to immediate succession – “part of potters’ clay, and part of iron”. That, however, cannot serve as foundation for a conclusive position – as there may be different correlates in view. That said,

a temporal allocation is absent; that is, one cannot apply a date certain to its existence other than it immediately precedes the kingdom of the ‘stone’.

>>20. Were any efforts to be made to reunite the divided empire of Rome?

"And whereas thou sawest iron mixed with miry clay, they shall mingle themselves with the seed of men: but they shall not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay." Verse 43.<< [ed.jasd]

Note: the above underlined and bolded.

>>Many political revolutions and territorial changes have occurred in Europe since the fall of the Roman Empire in 476 A.D.; but its divided state still remains.

This remarkable dream, as interpreted by Daniel, presents in the briefest form, and yet with unmistakable clearness, the course of world empires from the time of Nebuchadnezzar to the close of earthly history and the setting up of the everlasting kingdom of God. The history confirms the prophecy. The sovereignty of the world was held by Babylon from the time of this dream, B.C. 603, until B.C. 538, when it passed to the Medes and Persians. The victory of the Grecian forces at the battle of Arbela, in B.C. 331, marked the downfall of the Medo-Persian Empire, and the Greeks then became the undisputed rulers of the world. The battle of Pydna, in Macedonia, in B.C. 168, was the last organized effort to withstand a world-wide conquest by the Romans, and at that time therefore the sovereignty passed from the Greeks to the Romans, and the fourth kingdom was fully established.<<

A fair synopsis.

Let us take note, however: the EU is presently a practically workable and working union. It has its common constitution, its common money, courts, agreements, its unrestricted travel, etc. Matter-of-fact,

as constituted, it portends to eclipse us – soon. (Jean-Jacques Servan-Schreiber noted that the American Corporate presence in Europe post WWII was so pervasive that it constituted a Europe within a Europe. {note, again: the designate Corporate})

However, the EU may be just another in a litany of past and present [E]mpires.

[John317]

>>17. What scripture shows that the Roman emperors ruled the world?

"And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed." Luke 2:1.<<

It is more rightly said that they ruled their ‘world’.

Yes, of course. That's a given, isn't it? For instance, when Rome is described in history books as a "world empire," it is a given that they only ruled the then known world, not the whole world as we know it today.

[jasd]

>>The division of Rome into ten kingdoms is definitely foretold in the vision recorded in the seventh chapter of Daniel, and occurred between the years 351 A.D. and 476 A.D.<< [ed.jasd]

The above conclusion depends upon a false premise. It is, as I’ve formerly proffered, impossible that one can correlate the four beasts of Daniel 7 to the Empires of Nebuchadnezzar’s dream. The language simply will not sustain it. To attempt to advance such as a workable hypothesis can only

lead to doctrinal error, that is, dogma.

>>The time for the setting up of this kingdom was to be "in the days of these kings." This cannot refer to the four preceding empires, or kingdoms; for they were not contemporaneous, but successive; neither can it refer to an establishment of the kingdom at Christ's first advent, for the ten kingdoms which arose out of the ruins of the Roman Empire were not yet in existence.<< [ed.jasd]

The fact that there is a Biblical foundation that permits the past tense application “which arose” is questionable.

>>It must therefore be yet future.<<

I agree. Perhaps, it coincides with beast of Revelation 13. (Incidentally, the world body of nations recognizes 17 industrialized nations. Seven of which comprised the former Group of Seven. Russia was, initially, the eighth – holding a somewhat 'observer' status. It is now a full-fledged member making the formerly G-7 - now the G-8: ...that eighth is the same, which all nations had declared dead – as in “as it were wounded unto death”. Have you noticed its resurrection and growing influence of late? its initiative as one of the founders in reorganizing NATO and designating it the EATO? etc.

Of course, it goes without saying that I simply proffer.