Science and the Bible

[AndrewM]

I believe a few months ago someone in this forum wanted to know of an Urban Legend that involved scientists taking into account stories in the Bible of God affecting time. I recently dug this out of the internet:<P>You decide on the verasity of this claim...<P>God is awesome! NASA & The Bible <P> For all the scientists out there, and for all the students who have a <BR>hard time convincing these people regarding the truth of the Bible, here's <BR>something that shows God's awesome creation, and that He is still in <BR>control. <BR> Did you know that the space program is busy proving that what has been <BR>called "myth" in the Bible is true? <BR> Mr. Harold Hill, President of the Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, <BR>Maryland, and a consultant in the space program, relates the following <BR>development. "I think one of the most amazing things that God has done <BR>for us today happened recently to our astronauts and space scientists at <BR>GreenBelt, Maryland. They were checking out where the positions of the sun, <BR>moon, and planets would be 100 years and 1,000 years from now. We have to <BR>know this so we won't send up a satellite and have it bump into something <BR>later on in its orbits. We have to lay out the orbits in terms of the life <BR>of the satellite and where the planets will be so the whole thing will not <BR>bog down. "They ran the computer measurement back and forth over the <BR>centuries, and it came to a halt. The computer stopped and put up a red <BR>signal, which meant that there was something wrong with either the <BR>information fed into it or with the results as compared to the standards. <BR>They called in the service department to check it out, and they said, <BR>'What's wrong?' Well, they found there is a day missing in space in elapsed <BR>time. They scratched their heads and tore their hair. There was no <BR>answer. <BR> "Finally a Christian man on the team said, 'You know, one time I was <BR>in Sunday School, and they talked about the sun standing still.' While <BR>they didn't believe him, they didn't] have an answer either, so they said, <BR>'Show us.' <BR> "He got a Bible and went to the book of Joshua where they found a <BR>pretty ridiculous statement for any one with 'common sense.' There they <BR>found the Lord saying to Joshua, 'Fear them not, I have delivered them into <BR>thy hand; there shall not a man of them stand before thee.' <BR> "Joshua was concerned because he was surrounded by the enemy, and if <BR>darkness fell, they would overpower them. So Joshua asked the Lord to make <BR>the sun stand still! That's right...'The sun stood still and the moon <BR>stayed and lasted not to go down about a whole day!' (Joshua 10:12-13) <BR> "The astronauts and scientists said, 'There is the missing day!' They <BR>checked the computers going back into the time it was written and found it <BR>was close but not close enough. The elapsed time that was missing back in <BR>Joshua's day was 23 hours and 20 minutes... not a whole day. <BR> "They read the Bible, and there it was 'about (approximately) a day.' <BR>These little words in the Bible are important, but they were still in <BR>trouble because if you cannot account for 40 minutes, you'll still be in <BR>trouble 1,000 years from now. Forty minutes had to be found because it can <BR>be multiplied many times over in orbits. <BR>"As the Christian employee thought about it, he remembered somewhere in the <BR>Bible where it said the sun went BACKWARDS. The scientists told him he was <BR>out of his mind, but they got out the Book and read these words in 2 Kings <BR>that told of the following story: <BR> Hezekiah, on his deathbed, was visited by the prophet Isaiah who <BR>told him that he was not going to die. Hezekiah asked for a sign as proof. <BR>Isaiah said 'Do you want the sun to go ahead 10 degrees?' Hezekiah said, <BR>'It is nothing for the sun to go ahead 10 degrees, but let the shadow <BR>return backward 10 degrees.' Isaiah spoke to the Lord, and the Lord <BR>brought the shadow ten degrees BACKWARD! "Ten degrees is exactly 40 <BR>minutes! <BR> Twenty-three hours and 20 minutes in Joshua, plus 40 minutes in <BR>Second Kings make the missing day in the universe!" Isn't it amazing? <BR>References: Joshua 10:8 and 12,13 and 2 Kings 20:9-11. <BR> Forward this to as many people who you believe would think this is <BR>equally as cool. Never be afraid to try something new. Remember, amateurs <BR>built the ark. Professionals built the Titanic.

[Guest]

Part one of this urban legend (there are four parts, so if you want the link and want to check it out yourself, here it is..... <A HREF="http://www.ulrc.com.au/html/report.asp?CaseFile=ULRR0059&Page=1&View=Request" TARGET=_blank>http://www.ulrc.com.au/html/report.asp?CaseFile=ULRR0059&Page=1&View=Request</A> )<P>Stories are full of beginnings. This story has any number of them; beginnings that reach back into the days in which the Bible was written and perhaps beyond.<P>But perhaps one of the most meaningful beginnings to this story -- meaningful to the chain e-mail itself, anyway -- can be found in the tales told by one particular man...<P>Some may find it surprising (I did!) to discover that not only is there truly a Harold Hill who was the president of Curtis Engine Company in Baltimore, Maryland, USA, but the said same Harold Hill has also made claim that the "NASA finds the lost day in time with significant help from the Bible" tale is true.<P>This is despite the fact that NASA have publicly denied any such event ever took place and have gone to some lengths to question the details of the tale that attempt to establish a plausible explanation for why (and how) NASA might have been going about doing such a thing.<P>The San Fernando Valley Folklore Society notes that Harold Hill's involvement with NASA was not of a nature that involved any activity in which he may have observed the series of events related in the chain e-mail, had they ever taken place. Far from being a 'consultant in the space program,' Mr Hill was president of a company (Curtis Engine Company, as noted above) that had a contract with NASA to service electrical generators, nothing more.<P>This did not stop Mr Hill, it appears, from claiming a more general involvement with NASA in his 1974 book, "How To Live Like A King's Kid", in which he recounted the "Lost Day" tale as being factual. Prior to releasing this book it appears Mr Hill had recounted the tale a number of times while a guest speaker at speaking engagements at schools.<P>The San Fernando Valley Folklore Society advises that Mr Hill has subsequently publicly stated that he is unable to offer any substantiation of the tale, but steadfastly maintains its veracity all the same.<P>Right -- so it appears that Mr Hill's testimony may not accurately reflect certain important aspects of the tale that might help an audience achieve a more balanced view of the tale itself.<P>After all, how likely would you be to accept this story if it began with: "I was the president of a company that had a limited involvement with NASA in a capacity that had nothing to do with the roles of the people whose alleged experiences I am about to recount and which experiences I cannot substantiate or corroborate in any meaningful way whatsoever&#8230;"<P>It takes a little bit of the wind out of the tale's sails, doesn't it?<P>And if that wasn't enough to convince you that all is not what it seems with this chain e-mail, NASA themselves have not remained quiet on the subject.<P>NASA chose to deal with this tale in its educational "Ask A High-Energy Astronomer" web pages. The question posed was, "Can the event that took place in Joshua 10:13 be confirmed, for example by counting the positions of heavenly bodies backward in time?"<P>NASA's response was simple and direct:<P>First it explained that the only way such an event could take place, according to the laws of physics, would be if the Earth stopped spinning on its axis for the specified period of time or if the Sun began moving about in the Solar System in "a very specific way so that it appeared to us on our spinning Earth to be standing still." The page notes that there is no evidence that either event has ever taken place <BR>And second, it explained that the movements of 'heavenly bodies' such as planets are calculated into the future from precise formulas and that these formulas are simply not capable of delivering any kind of error that would indicate something like a 'missing' day <BR>In essence, NASA explained that the events described in Joshua 10:8-13 and 2Kings 20:9-11 do not appear to be possible according to the known physical laws of the universe and that the e-mail makes a logical error in claiming that NASA would be able to identify a 'missing day' in the manner described.

[Guest]

Part Two<P>One of the truly marvellous things about running a web site like the Urban Legends Research Centre is the amazing number of interesting people you get to meet!<P>One such person is Jim P., a Baptist Minister from North Carolina, USA.<P>I couldn't imagine anyone I have met who would be better qualified to comment on the potential meaningfulness of this tale to a Christian audience.<P>Here's what Jim had to say when I asked him for his thoughts:<P>Do I think some Christians might believe a tale like "NASA finds the lost day in time"? You bet your boots I do!<P>Why?<P>Let's begin with a short answer:<P>Some people need to find objective and empirical proof for their spiritual and religious beliefs. It gives them a sense of security to find something that proves and supports their faith.<P>Right, now for a slightly longer answer:<P>In the past, things that could not be explained or understood were attributed to God. As science explains more there are less things that are mysterious. This is threatening to the faith of some people. For some people, the affirmation of a miracle in the Bible by scientists is the ultimate proof (to them) that their faith is valid. This "Lost Day" hoax would be a powerful attraction to these people.<P>And now for the longest answer of all!<P>Resolving the relationship between science and religion has been a struggle for mankind since we started thinking about these concepts. This is a very old discussion. Just read how the Christian institution in Rome treated Galileo!<P>We have been living in a time of rapid and accelerating change for about the past 150 years. Scientific discoveries are changing our concept of our world and ourselves faster than we can assimilate these changes into our faith, world view, social and government systems. (EX: We used nuclear power for a bomb to kill people before we used it to make electricity to keep people alive.) I am certain that the rapid pace of scientific discovery is a major contributing factor to the rise of fundamentalism in most of the world's major religions today.<P>For some fundamentalist Christians and for some very conservative Christians the issues of science and religion can be very emotional. These fundamentalist-conservative Christians often believe in a "literal interpretation" of the Bible. To them this means that the Bible is absolutely reliable in all matters, not only of religion but also matters of science, history and everything else. For some, the beginning point of faith is the authority and accuracy of the Bible.<P>The logic progresses like this: if the Bible is proven to be historically or scientifically inaccurate in any way then it might not be reliable in matters of religion, thus Jesus Christ might not be the Son of God and Savior of the world, and thus my faith, eternal security, and ethical codes of conduct might be invalid! In other words, when one thing is brought into question then everything is in doubt and life could just fall apart.<P>Sometimes these people get very emotional in defending their beliefs. Many times their reaction is to take a closed-minded stand. "The Bible says it, I believe it and that settles it." (i.e. "don't confuse me with the facts.") For some the reaction is to seek out complex explanations for problematic scientific discoveries like the age of the earth, the size of the universe, fossils, evolution and such other scientific things.<P>CERTAINLY, SOME OF THESE PEOPLE WILL JUMP ALL OVER A STORY ABOUT SCIENTISTS PROVING THAT THEIR FAITH IS ACCURATE! (Please note that I am not saying that all fundamentalist-conservative Christians are idiots! I am saying the "Lost Day in Time" story will have great appeal to some of them.)<P>I think the writer of the NASA site you referred me to is correct: "In general, trying to prove events that are said to have occurred in the Bible, using scientific principles, doesn't work. Most scientists draw a clear distinction between things that are taken on faith, and those that are testable and therefore falsifiable. Science deals with the later, and religion with the former."<P>For me, the Bible may contain matters of science but it is not a science textbook. The Bible may contain matters of history but it is not a history book. The Bible is a book of religion. I have study it seriously in English, Greek and Hebrew. I am looking for knowledge about God and my questions about God are usually answered (though it may take some searching and I have some questions that I have been looking for answers for a while.) Since I do not ask the Bible to give me answers in matters of science I do not have problems with those supposed "contradictions." I think (hope) I am in the greater majority of Christians.<P>Here is one for you. Is the Shroud of Turin a hoax? If it is a hoax, what difference would that make in the faith of a Christian? If it is the "real McCoy" what difference should that make?

[Guest]

Part Three<P>For a link to NASA's treatment of this chain e-mail, visit:<P>Can Science Confirm the Missing Day Referred to in the Bible?<BR>For the San Fernando Valley Folklore Society's excellent analysis of this chain e-mail, visit:<P>The Lost Day<BR>For notes on this chain e-mail at TAFKAC (www.urbanlegend.com), visit:<P>Science/missing day<P><BR>Thanks goes first and foremost to Jim P for his entertaining and insightful analysis of this tale from a Christian perspective!<P>Thanks must also go to NASA for maintaining a web page that debunks this tale.<P>And thanks, as always, to the San Fernando Valley Folklore Society for their tremendous reference tool!<P><BR>Part Four<P>Completely irrelevant. Just credits.

[Guest]

Some more good links for this urban legend:<BR> <A HREF="http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/missing_day.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.urbanlegends.com/science/missing_day.html</A> <BR> <A HREF="http://www.snopes2.com/" TARGET=_blank>http://www.snopes2.com/</A> (search [NASA and lost day])<P>The Big Book of Urban Legends, <BR>New York: Paradox Press, 1994. ISBN 1-56389-165-4 (p. 192).

[Kevin H]

Another issue here is while tradition interprets Joshua as the sun not moving, the Hebrew can be translated one of two different ways, and there is nothing from the Hebrew words themselves to support one of these views above the other.<P>The Hebrew has the sun doing something that could either mean "don't move" or "Be Quiet" (Standing still is a wonderful English translation). The moon does something that can either mean don't move, but is usually the term for an army holding it's ground and refusing to retreat to an invading army.<P>So the Hebrew can either mean that the sun and moon did not move, as our tradition says. Or it says that the sun was quiet (did not shine) and that the moon (i.e., the darkness of night) did not surrender up it's ground to the advancing daylight.<P>So which way shall we go? Well, the sun was on the eastern horizon, and the moon in the West. Also the Bible talks about the miracle of the hail storm. Have any of you seen thick hail clouds? How much sunlight can get through those clouds? Also, as you study the battle field, the darkness was to Israel's advantage, while sunlight would even up the odds.<P>So while, yes it may be a miracle of a lost day, it could also be the miracle of a beautiful sunrise suddenly being blocked out by a sudden hailstorm, thus not a lost day at all.<P>Now, should not this miracle be recounted over and over again in the lists remembering God's mighty acts? But not once is it referred to again... Unless, if it was the miracle of a beautiful morning turning into a sudden stormy day, we do find one who turned a stormy night into a beautiful calm night, a second Joshua. But of course why see something meaningful in the life of Jesus if it goes against tradition?<P>Also, if you really want the lost day, Haggi describes the sun standing still in a symbolic way for God's battles, applying it to both when Jerusalem fell to Babylon, as well as to Jerusalem's being freed from Babylon. So we have 3 days where the sun stood still.