'Obama Believers', the theological aspects of the Obama campaign....

[Tom Wetmore]

Hate, like outrage is wayy overrated.

Seven year old boy..."Mommy, Obama looks like Curious George."

He certainly does.

That, supposedly is the origin of the t-shirts.

Hi Jasd.

og

OK, even as a dumb white guy I get it why this T-shirt is racist. It is not cute. It is not funny.

And couching it in a hypothetical innocence of a child does not minimize or excuse it. It only illustrates how profoundly ignorant and disingenous it is to ignore the deep and hateful Jim Crow roots of characterizing people of African decent as monkeys. It is no more acceptable than the "N" word.

Tom

[Taylor]

Right, the "innocent" origin of the t-shirt (reportedly coming from a child's comment) doesn't baptize it at all. The child was likely innocent but the adults who made the t-shirts should definately know better.

[D. Allan]

Right, the "innocent" origin of the t-shirt (reportedly coming from a child's comment) doesn't baptize it at all. The child was likely innocent but the adults who made the t-shirts should definately know better.

[D. Allan]

" Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage. - H.L. Mencken"

Whatever did H.L.mean by this?

/dAb

[jasd]

>>I totally agree, Obama looks and acts like a real leader.<<

...goes to show just how misleading “looks and acts” can be; Hitler comes to mind. Rather, I’d hope for character, which McCain would seem to excel – hands-down – over his opposition.

Regardless, the issue of character and qualification, I’d vote for McCain – only because the alternative is so unthinkable!

>>AND he is better educated about the world around the US of A.<<

Personally, I’d rather our POTUS focus on what benefits America; not, upon sycophantic appeals to those whom we constantly have to rescue from their systems of idiocracy. Yikes!

>>Obama has already shown how he can engage with the rest of the world in his speech and appeal in Germany. I think the world would be a safer place with Obama in the White House.<<

Dirty little secret: the photos emanating from Germany and intended to depict fervor – were of crowds gathered for the free concert given by two of Germany’s pop culture bands. Sheesh, given that, any camera could depict even me as messiuh,uh,uh.

Safe? let us not be found standing with those cold and the timid souls – who neither will nor dare... [/plagiarized,sorta]

Killing (stereotyping?) two birds (black or white?) with one stone (as in stoned? y’know, crack...):

Where does all this PC stuff end? next we’ll be censoring/censuring anyone employing the term ‘black hole’ – oh, that’s been done already, eh? After that,

we’ll kill cartoonists, yes?

Suck it up, already. (speaking from the standpoint of the most persecuted minority in America’s history – the Native American)

Too rough, like, too rude and crude? (I’ve yet to see the dissenters object to the incessant and disparaging barrage directed against the sitting Prez. No respect, eh? Kinda, like, whose ox is gored, eh?)

Oh, the whiney leftists.

Oy!

Anyway, re the looney-toon as subject: and here I’d thought it was a comment on qualification... who’da thunk it racist? :-o

[John317]

" Democracy is the art of running the circus from the monkey cage. - H.L. Mencken"

Of course, as you probably know, Mencken was a confirmed atheistic evolutionist and believed you could trace your ancestry to or through the monkeys.

He was comparing America's leaders, particularly the White House, to the monkey cage. But by implication, he is also saying that the people voting in the elections are on a level with the monkeys.

I admire him a lot as a writer and consider him to be one of our best and most neglected. Have you read his massive, The American Language? A veritable feast for anyone interested in words and language. I have a feeling you'd love it. (It's published as an abridged single volume now.)

He had a lot of interesting thoughts about Jews, race, politics, and of course religion and morals. I share his interest in Frederick Nietzsche, although not for the same reasons.

A great site for general info on him: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H._L._Mencken

I have no doubt he would find the current campaign highly entertaining and amusing.

[D. Allan]

<<I’d hope for character, which McCain would seem to excel – hands-down – over his opposition.>>

He's not showing much of it lately! me thinks

<<Regardless, the issue of character and qualification, I’d vote for McCain – only because the alternative is so unthinkable!>>

Change the name and I'm wich' yh ! 4 more yrs. like the last 8 - no tanks

Theologically speachin one might in the interrogative mode perhaps determine if it be more churchly on either side of the aisle. 'speshly might that be apropos seein' as how the 'publicans & 'crats like to give the 'pression their seats in congress are just a section of an old pew (that is - when try'n' to get re-elected ).

Now which one is more likely to feed the poor, and care for the sick, to turn the other cheek and so on -?

Well! - peepholes seem to be thinkin' thats all good and appropriate to talk away like that in a pew or pulpit, but in real life you must be prepared to stab your neighbor in the back, and see if he works or not for his food, no mind that the elitist rightests have sent many jobs 'ore the seas, and after all there is money involved - the justification for all greed, - the end of all means.

/dAb

[John317]

What are the main things you don't like about McCain, and the main things you do like about Obama? I mean the main things that would cause you to decide not to vote for the one and to vote instead for the other.

[Jeannieb43]

Wow! What a great, open-ended question.

How much time do you have, Jim?

I'd like to return to this thread later when I have some time.

[carolaa]

Our President panders to no one. The liberals despise him because he got us into Iraq (even though it is highly likely that Gore Jr. would have done the same thing). The conservatives disapprove of him because he has done little to nothing to stop illegal immigration. So with both the liberals and conservatives unhappy with him it is surprising he has been able to maintain anything close to a 30% approval rating - which is significantly higher than the Democrat Congress' approval rating. So I guess we can say most Americans believe Congress is doing a terrible job too.

Those are some good points. However, I am wondering why you keep saying that Gore would probably have gotten us into Iraq. I find that hard to believe. I mean, Bush's goal was to get into Iraq from his very first day in office, months before 9/11. He and Cheney lied, deceived, manipulated evidence, etc. to make it happen. I just don't think Gore would have gone down that road.

[John317]

I want to hear it ALL. I'm serious.

Take your time. No rush.

[D. Allan]

Yeah I know. Mark Twain too - atheist - don't know about the monkeys in HIS case. Both had a witty way with words. Well there are some of us Christians who are fond of our monkey ancestors and proud of 'em, too!

I haven't read his tome on Ame. Lang. b'n' a "retired" (with a little accent it becomes "retarded") brick-layer i'v been reduced to bying all my books at a re-sale store where i can get them for 25cents hardcover, and 10cents paperback. All great books. I even find signed-by-the-author copies. It's a sport sort of like treasure hunting!

It would be fun to have Mencken commenting on the political landscape just now.

I like his Epitaph which he suggested:

Quote:

"If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl."

Now what could be more Christian!? Unless he did it himself and he probably did.

Menken on Democracy (-from wikipedia, again)

Quote:

"[D]emocracy gives [the beatification of mediocrity] a certain appearance of objective and demonstrable truth. The mob man, functioning as citizen, gets a feeling that he is really important to the world - that he is genuinely running things. Out of his maudlin herding after rogues and mountebanks there comes to him a sense of vast and mysterious power—which is what makes archbishops, police sergeants, the grand goblins of the Ku Klux and other such magnificoes happy. Finally, there comes out of it a glowing consciousness of a high duty triumphantly done which is what makes hangmen and husbands happy."

"The larger the mob, the harder the test. In small areas, before small electorates, a first-rate man occasionally fights his way through, carrying even the mob with him by force of his personality. But when the field is nationwide, and the fight must be waged chiefly at second and third hand, and the force of personality cannot so readily make itself felt, then all the odds are on the man who is, intrinsically, the most devious and mediocre — the man who can most easily adeptly disperse the notion that his mind is a virtual vacuum.

"The Presidency tends, year by year, to go to such men. As democracy is perfected, the office represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. We move toward a lofty ideal. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

(Baltimore Evening Sun, July 26, 1920)

Most of Ame. is hoping Obama will release us from this vicious trend. From men whose main drive is the inflation of their egos. >>Finally, there comes out of it a glowing consciousness of a high duty triumphantly done which is what makes hangmen and husbands happy."<<

/dAb

[Bravus]

'Character' is a term that gets tossed around a lot. What does it mean in this context?

[John317]

Yeah I know. Mark Twain too - atheist - don't know about the monkeys in HIS case. Both had a witty way with words....

It would be fun to have Mencken commenting on the political landscape just now....

Yes, I agree with the comparison. They would have got along fabulously. There are no literature courses built around Mencken but there are a lot about Twain and his books. One of my favorite classes was one where all of his books were required reading, and then we would discuss them. Such great fun.

The closest thing to Twain in our day was a guy who died about a year ago-- Kurt Vonnegut. You like him? If you like Twain, you'd be sure to like V. Not the same breadth or power but the same biting satire.

I don't see anyone like Mencken, today, either. But that would be a blast, I agree.

Both Twain and Mencken were incurable pessimists. Twain actually got to the point in his life where he hated both God and humanity. He founded a club devoted to the hating of all mankind. His last long story, "The Mysterious Stranger," brings this out. You can see the change come over Twain in his attitude about mankind by studying Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court. He begins that book happily and thoughtfully, but by the last couple of chapters, his hatred for humanity is obvious. He hated God for the suffering of his wife. For Twain the worst mistake God ever made was to give us a conscience. He envied the animals because they have no conscience.

Fascinating, complex man. A lot in common with Flaubert in their view of humanity.

Now back to the right subject for this thread.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Bush's goal was to get into Iraq from his very first day in office, months before 9/11. He and Cheney lied, deceived, manipulated evidence, etc. to make it happen.

This kind of mantra tells me a person is not well informed probably due to getting their news from too few of sources.

It was Al Gore Jr. that lead Bill Clinton's charge for war against Iraq which resulted in the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998. Bill Clinton stated, at the time, that Saddam would be mistaken if he believed the US would not invade unless they had UN approval.

Removing Saddam from power in Iraq was US policy long before 9/11 and long before Bush was elected President. We can see how the Bush-hating crowd can twist the facts. Did Bush want to get rid of Saddam Hussein before 9/11? Yes! Yes! & Yes! It was government policy.

Now since Al Gore Jr. was part of the Clinton Administration and was the principle spokesman that pushed through Iraq Liberation Act of 1998 it only makes sense conclude that had he been elected President he would have removed Saddam given the same information Bush had. President Putin of Russia called Bush and told Bush Saddam was planning to attack the US on US soil using terrorists. Does anyone believe Gore would have just ignored that?

[D. Allan]

What are the main things you don't like about McCain, and the main things you do like about Obama? I mean the main things that would cause you to decide not to vote for the one and to vote instead for the other.

McCain:

1. hypocritically has claimed the high truth-telling road yet has failed to reach that high goal (with relish it seems) in less than truthful remarks about others.

2. has a weakness for blondes: however, he might rise in the polls if he announces Paris Hilton as his vice-presidental nominee!

3. panders to rightest republicans.

4. he is a republican.

5. i don't get "good vibes" from him, his demeanor seems contrived and unnatural, and thus he comes across as untrustworthy since one can't be sure what he is really like. Plus, i feel a "mean streak" in him, somehow.

6. at heart a "redneck" - someone overly protective of his ego. and lacking in social amenities (not as bad a GWB, however.)

If he selects Hillary Clinton as his running mate, I will consider voting for him, just consider...

Obama:

1. Seems more thoughtful and more intelligent.

2. Is on a higher road and more straight-talking than the claimee McC.

3. Is a family man, with one wife.

4. Appears sincere.

5. Is not a "redneck." He will not treat our allies and other heads of state presumptously and arrogantly.

6. Europeans like him. Australians like him (i haven't heard from the rest of the world, yet). He gives them "Hope."

7. Realistic long-term energy goal to become energy independent.

8. Is more likely to bring in Health Care for all.

If he begins false stupid advertising against McCain, as McCain uses agains Obama, then I might write in: HILLARY CLINTON.

[John317]

Imagine what would happen if all the voters forgot to pay attention only to the negatives about the candidate they disapprove of and remember only the positives about the candidate of their choice.

In that case, everyone would either not vote at all or they'd all mark their ballots, "None of the above." (Absolutely frightening where that could lead!) So the secret of our great republic's success seems to depend on about 40% of its citizens only seeing half the truth-- a proof that myopia in things political is often a gift from the gods.

[D. Allan]

'Character' is a term that gets tossed around a lot. What does it mean in this context?

Yeah, I thought of that too, when Mencken mentioned problems in identifing a candidates "personality."

Character: Lincoln probably leads all our Presidents in it. Still a president does need a personality too - one which does not irritate, or confound.

Character: is it best summed up in humbleness? considering others above one's self? valuing the job more than the remuneration? Most politicos want to be remunerated not only in money, but with soothed egos, a sense of being important, etc. - as well described by H.L.Mencken

/dAb

[D. Allan]

Imagine what would happen if all the voters forgot to pay attention only to the negatives about the candidate they disapprove of and remember only the positives about the candidate of their choice.

[John317]

How would Truman have viewed Clinton?

Good indication is that Truman had no use for people who exploited their former positions in government to make themselves a lot of money.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: john317

Imagine what would happen if all the voters forgot to pay attention only to the negatives about the candidate they disapprove of and remember only the positives about the candidate of their choice.

that is what you asked for, John, and that is what i gave you.

Quote:

Originally Posted By: John317

What are the main things you don't like about McCain, and the main things you do like about Obama? I mean the main things that would cause you to decide not to vote for the one and to vote instead for the other.

btw: r u republican?

Oh you misunderstood. I'm sorry. My post there was unrelated to your post. It was just something like what I think Mencken might write if he were alive today. I didn't mean that statement to be seen as being about anyone in particular. Actually it happens on both sides in an election, and as I indicated, that is probably a good thing.

Actually I have voted for more democratic candidates than republicans. I don't vote by party.

[D. Allan]

good old harry! I liked him. Admired his humility and ordinariness.

There are things i like about McCain: but they seem to be qualities which are dissipating, melting, under the enormous pressure of his great desire to win. He seemed to be one who thought independantly, now he has to try and please everyone.

I don't suppose we could ever get the candidates to submit to psychological tests and reveal their true characters, personalities and goals to the voters. Why keep us guessing? Let's get scientific about it.

/dAb

[olger]

Hi Taylor. Neither you or I got one of them Tee shirts. I don't reckon it's worth getting all worked up about, unless the woman holding it is a racist.

:)

[olger]

You should contact the woman in the picture and tell her she is a racist.

Would you vote for Walter Williams for president if he was running against Harry Reid? How about Clarence Thomas?

thoughtful olger

some people aren't happy unless they're sad.

[John317]

How about if we put together a test that would give us reliable facts about a candidates judgment, maturity, intelligence, stability and common sense? What would be ideal is if such a test would be able to give us all Abraham Lincolns, Thomas Jeffersons or George Washingtons.

Or Obamas? Does that sound right?

I think we better wait at least 8 years to decide that one, although by the looks of some things, it appears there are a lot of people who would say yes to that already. What-- you mean to tell me he hasn't been crowned already?!!