Baptized for the dead?

[BibleShockers]

What is the consensus around here on what this means?

1 Cor 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Thanks,

[Gerr]

The consensus is that there is no consensus on what this obscure and difficult passage mean, and that one should not build a theological edifice on just one post supporting it.

Gerry

[BibleShockers]

>>>The consensus is that there is no consensus on what this obscure and difficult passage mean, and that one should not build a theological edifice on just one post supporting it.

Thanks, Gerry.

However, ISTM that most Christian doctrines are built on prooftexts.

[Gerr]

When several Bible writers say the same thing, then it is reasonable to use what they say as proof to establish a doctrine.

Gerry

[Teresa Berrong]

The Bible says that the "dead know not anything neither have they any more reward." The dead are already saved or lost as the case may be.

[John317]

That is true. Paul is not saying that Christians ought to baptize in behalf of the dead. He is simply observing that some people show that they believe in a future life by baptizing for the dead.

There are other legitmate ways of understanding this verse, however. For instance, it's entirely possible that Paul is talking about people who were baptized because they anticipated seeing their beloved dead in the future.

[ChildofChrist]

Baptism of the dead...is this not a practice of the Church of Latter Day Saints or more commonly known as the Mormons?

[Ron Amnsn]

When Paul and the Corinthian believers studied the scriptures, they studied primarily the Old Testament (because the New Testament was still being written and wasn't widely available yet).

I suspect that Paul's meaning in this verse was probably clearer to folks who were well versed in the Old Testament.

Baptism was an Old Testament practice. It's related to the Hebrew word mikvah or ceremonial washing.

In the books of Moses, there are special washings prescribed for various occasions. Two of the most special washings were for people who had been in contact with the dead. They were to wash with water mixed with the ashes of a red heifer on the third day and on the seventh day before returning to worship at the Sanctuary. (Numbers 19:11ff)

What does this have to do with the resurrection of the dead that Paul was talking about? I don't know -- maybe nothing at all.

It is possible that the washing with red heifer ashes was referred to as "Mikvah-ing because of the dead", and when it got translated in to Greek it may have become "baptized for the dead". Of course, this is speculation, so don't quote me on this.

Perhaps when Paul was previously living in Corinth, one of their epic discussions had been about about the reasons for participating in a mikvah. Paul's comment may have been referring back to the arguments presented or the conclusions drawn from that discussion. Paul and his original readers in Corinth would have been familiar with what had been discussed before, but we haven't a clue.

[John317]

Baptism of the dead...is this not a practice of the Church of Latter Day Saints or more commonly known as the Mormons?

Yes, it is one of their main doctrines. Virtually everyone who dies is baptized by proxy, because the Mormon's believe in the immortality of the soul, and because they believe that if no one is baptized for the dead, that dead person has no real chance of salvation. Mormon's also believe that the living once existed in heaven before being born with a body on this earth. Many of these ideas they get, not from the Bible but from the writings of Joseph Smith.

[John317]

Thanks for those comments about baptism for the dead. I had never considered that aspect before as an explanation.

[createsjg]

Romans 6 tells us the purpose of baptism. Jesus was alive when He was baptized. I think that we do best to follow His example.

On the subject of Mormon's baptizing for the dead. I went on a tour of the temple built in Albuquerque NM before it's dedication and our guide showed us the baptismal and indicated that there was the practice of batizing for the dead. That was from their mouths.

[ChildofChrist]

Did they say HOW this is done?

Do they wash a document bearing the names or just sprinkle it?

It would be a rare thing to have access to ashes or bones.

[B Humble]

Baptism does not only mean to be immersed in scripture. For example, Christ asked the apostles (referring to his suffering and death) if they were able to be "baptized with HIS baptism". Mt.20:22-23 "22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able. 23 And he saith unto them, Ye shall drink indeed of my cup, and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with: .."

It is clear in this verse that "baptism" meant to personally suffer. It is likely that 1Corinthians 15 had the same meaning as to "suffer" for the dead. After all, in scripture the concept of suffering for the dead is extant in the new testament.

Ephesians 2:1 - And you hath he quickened, who were DEAD in trespasses and sins;

Ephesians 2:5 - Even when we were DEAD in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved;)

Colossians 2:13 - And you, being DEAD in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

It really isn't foreign at all. Christ suffered and died for the sins of those who were dead, like the sins of Abraham, Noah, Issac, Jacob and the sins of all the prophets, all who were dead.

[John317]

Thanks very much for those thoughts. I hadn't thought of those things before, but I can see they're worth considering. I'll look at them carefully and then write a response. Thanks again.

[B Humble]

It is indeed one of the most profound yet simple truths I have ever come to know. It does explain how that the sacrifices of those on earth do benefit those are no longer living on earth. Otherwise, the sufferings and sacrifice of Christ would not have benefited those those who has passed from this life. And we, ourselves were dead in sins when Christ offered himself for his and saved or (quickened) while dead in sins. Who will ever deny that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead?

profound! Isn't it?!

[John317]

It is indeed one of the most profound yet simple truths I have ever come to know. It does explain how that the sacrifices of those on earth do benefit those are no longer living on earth. Otherwise, the sufferings and sacrifice of Christ would not have benefited those those who has passed from this life. And we, ourselves were dead in sins when Christ offered himself for his and saved or (quickened) while dead in sins. Who will ever deny that Christ offered himself as a sacrifice for the dead?

profound! Isn't it?!

Yet I am sure you will admit that after his death, a person cannot change his status from one of being lost to one of being saved. There is no probationary period following an individual death. Isn't that what the parable of the rich man and Lazarus teaches?

[B Humble]

I would not say there is a probationary period after one's death. Nonetheless, the sacrifice of Christ was offered for the dead and they were aided by it. No one can deny it.

[John317]

Yes, Christ's sacrifice aided the dead, but on the basis of what the dead did while they were living, not while they were dead. In other words, the dead have no ability to accept Christ or to praise God or to have faith in Christ. All that is to be done on behalf of people must be done before they die. As pointed out before, that is the primary lesson of the parable of Lazarus and the Rich Man. Take advantage of the time you have now, because once you die, it is too late. After death, there is no change in a person's spiritual condition. A person going into the grave unconverted and rebellious against God, will be raised in that same state of mind.

[John317]

Speaking of the dead, what is meant by 1 Cor. 15: 18?

It says that without the resurrection of the body, the dead are "perished," "lost." How could the dead be perished if they are conscious and alive in heaven or in the presence of the grace of God?

The CEV says it well: And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.

Could Paul have said this if he believed that the dead go immediately to be with the Lord?

[John317]

Could you give me between 10 and 20 verses that you would use in a Bible study on what happens when we die?

Feel free to add a comment with each verse to show what point is being made in the verse.

Later, if you like, I'll do the same.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi BibleShockers,

the passage is not difficult to understand when you keep it in context. Take it alone as you have posted and it can be confusing.

Here a context verse. 1Co 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

Then after proving that Christ is raised from the dead he asks the reotrical question, Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead?

Co 15:29

The dead in this verse is referring to Christ. I'll reword it: If Christ has not been raised from the dead then why are we being baptized for a dead person?

Then he goes on to explain the futility of living if Christ in not raised fro the dead.

1Co 15:30 And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? 31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. 32 If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for tomorrow we die.

It's really not too difficult to understand if we use truth as a foundation and match it with the plan of salvation.

Norman

[B Humble]

Speaking of the dead, what is meant by 1 Cor. 15: 18?

It says that without the resurrection of the body, the dead are "perished," "lost." How could the dead be perished if they are conscious and alive in heaven or in the presence of the grace of God?

The CEV says it well: And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.

Could Paul have said this if he believed that the dead go immediately to be with the Lord?

Answer: ICor.15:18 says if there is no resurrection of the body they would be "completely lost" or "perished" in the sense, as the context shows, the gospel would be TOTALLY false their would be no reason to hope for either life after death or the resurrection of the body. Of course, the Adventist teach they are "completely lost" anyway by being annihilated at the death of the body. Where as Christianity properly teaches that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul. We know that Christ comforted his soon to be martryed disciples by promising them, that when THEY "kill the body" THE SAME PEOPLE CANNOT KILL THE SOUL". Because the soul is spirit and is not composed of material things of this earth.

Now, it is true, that the Adventist teach the wicked martyrs have power to KILL BOTH THE BODY AND THE SOUL. And in fact, the Adventist by teaching annihilationism, teach that the wicked are far worse to be feared than Christ. Because, according to Adventist teaching, Christ will only punish you for a few seconds and then annihilate you, WHILE THE WICKED CAN TORMENT YOU FOR DAYS, WEEKS, MONTHS OR YEARS.

If you apply Adventist teaching on the soul, Mt.10:28 would read something like this: "FEAR (the wicked) HIM, WHO CAN KILL BOTH BODY AND SOUL, and not Christ who will only torment you for few seconds. For the wicked can torment you for an hour, days, months, years, while Christ will simply give you sleep".

Yes, the Adventist teach that the wicked can:

1. Kill the body

2. Kill the Soul too.

3. Torment you for hours, days, months and years, while Christ will only punish you for a few seconds.

4. The wicked can torment you in both body and soul for hours, days, months and years far worse than the punishment of Christ.

5. The torment from the wicked in this life is much worse than the punishment of Christ.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Speaking of the dead, what is meant by 1 Cor. 15: 18?

It says that without the resurrection of the body, the dead are "perished," "lost." How could the dead be perished if they are conscious and alive in heaven or in the presence of the grace of God?

The CEV says it well: And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.

Could Paul have said this if he believed that the dead go immediately to be with the Lord?

Answer: ICor.15:18 says if there is no resurrection of the body they would be "completely lost" or "perished" in the sense, as the context shows, the gospel would be TOTALLY false their would be no reason to hope for either life after death or the resurrection of the body.

If the righteous dead are already aware of being in the presence of God's grace, how can it be said that they will be completely lost or perished if they are not resurrected?

Where do you believe the righteous dead are at this moment?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Speaking of the dead, what is meant by 1 Cor. 15: 18?

It says that without the resurrection of the body, the dead are "perished," "lost." How could the dead be perished if they are conscious and alive in heaven or in the presence of the grace of God?

The CEV says it well: And those people who died after putting their faith in him are completely lost.

Could Paul have said this if he believed that the dead go immediately to be with the Lord?

Of course, the Adventist teach they are "completely lost" anyway by being annihilated at the death of the body. Where as Christianity properly teaches that the death of the body does not mean the death of the soul. We know that Christ comforted his soon to be martryed disciples by promising them, that when THEY "kill the body" THE SAME PEOPLE CANNOT KILL THE SOUL". Because the soul is spirit and is not composed of material things of this earth...

This is not the Seventh-day Adventist position.

In Matt. 10: 28, what is destroyed in hell? It says plainly that people are not merely souls or spirits in hell, but that both body and soul will be destroyed in hell. This proves that people are not taken to hell as disembodied spirits but they will have bodies at that time. Jesus is talking about real, literal, physical fire, and real people with real bodies.

Isaiah 1: 28 tells what will happen to them. They will be annihilated, which is the meaning of the Hebrew word there. (See Modern Language Bible, or New Berkeley Version.) They will be consumed.

Let me ask you something here. When the disciples were martyred, what happened to them. Where do you believe they are at this time?

[John317]