Why vote Republican?

[Neil D]

I am sorry, John...but Americans don't need to insult thier friends/allies....

And in this case, jasd needs his royal b*** kicked off the forum and think about what he said for then next 30 days.

Americans have gotten used to being "king of the road" and non-Americans look at it as arrogance. And in many ways, what the non-American are saying is true.

Americans need to take a more humble attitude toward their status in the world, crumbling as it may be. Idiotic Americans who boast of what thier country does and has done, need to realize that patriotic pride is the same as religious pride to an adventist....and neither ingraciates oneself to the King of Heaven.

Quote:

Play nice, everyone

Come on, John...You don't beat up on everyone when only ONE child is being disrespectful. You take out the ONE child and you disciple him....You don't go beat up everyone else when they have not done anythnig wrong...What you are doing is the same thing as Congress is doing....placaiting everyone when it is a couple of jerks that need a good whoopin'.

[jasd]

>>...then return only if we can stop all negative personal references. Remember we can exchange all views on the topics and we should be able to do that without personal attacks.<<

Rationally, it is doubtful that you’ve included me in the above; however, just to ensure that there is no misunderstanding...: Aside from ‘perfidious’, which I applied to the entire Continent – there remains only the following...

Quote:

Quote:jasd

I suggest you take your biases and put them back in your pocket – and, rather, read carefully. [/respectfully]

That statement, which was a response to obvious ‘umbrage’, cannot be conceivably misconstrued to have been negatively personal. It was simply a plea for incisive reading before applying to ‘umbrage’.

Otherwise, I agree:

>>...relax and have fun! Lots of it!<<

>>Democrats are good people generally...<<

Generally.

[Neil D]

Apologize, for what? Show me that I am wrong, and I will readily concede the point. I think I've shown that I do apologize where I am wrong. (Don’t you just hate the egregious snark?)

Start with this...

You should have been honest instead of partisan. Talk to some Americans who served in Vietnam alongside Australians and see what they have to say. I will accept a lot from you, but this I will not. Australian blood has been shed for American imperialist fantasies for too long, and to spit on that is just... obscene. .

As Bravus has said, you have let partisanship interfer with your honesty...And over Ozzie blood spilt for American causes...You have insulted a lot of people, and dishonored the American name. And Bravus is correct when he says "..... you do not deserve the freedom you have..."

This type of arrogance deserves rebuke...and you have been rebuked...by both an Ozzie and a American.

[jasd]

>>I am sorry, John...but Americans don't need to insult thier friends/allies....<<

Good grief, Neil D! are you now going to each and every thread and board that denigrates all things Catholic? y’know, those brothers in Jesus Christ who constitute part of the Body of Jesus Christ? and attempt to agitate, and accentuate the very paucity of things?

>>And in this case, jasd needs his royal b*** <<

May I suggest a spell-checker?

>>...kicked off the forum and think about what he said for then next 30 days.<<

Good grief, Neil D, if anyone deserves to get their fundament chastised, it is the [may I?] shei**e- stirrer. That certain someone who gleefully pounces upon every splat of cow pie encoutered.

>>Americans have gotten used to being "king of the road" and non-Americans look at it as arrogance. And in many ways, what the non-American are saying is true.<<

So, again, where are our Australallies? They’ve stealthed right out of Iraq. So, what? the check cleared?

>>Americans need to take a more humble attitude toward their status in the world, crumbling as it may be. Idiotic Americans who boast of what thier country does and has done, need to realize that patriotic pride is the same as religious pride to an adventist....and neither ingraciates oneself to the King of Heaven.<<

The above argues solipsism.

>>Come on, John...You don't beat up on everyone when only ONE child is being disrespectful. You take out the ONE child and you disciple him....You don't go beat up everyone else when they have not done anythnig wrong...What you are doing is the same thing as Congress is doing....placaiting everyone when it is a couple of jerks that need a good whoopin'.<<

Good grief, Neil D, may I suggest re the above – nuance and finesse? How can one respond to such internalized jingoism?

Let’s, you and I, give it a rest, okay?

[John317]

Again: I did not misspeak.

Time on this thread for everyone to step back and take a breather, then return only if we can stop all negative personal references. Remember we can exchange all views on the topics and we should be able to do that without personal attacks. Argue from evidence and reason. And most of all, relax and have fun! Lots of it!

Play nice, everyone.

Oh, and it is ok to say America is wrong and it's ok to say other countries are wrong. But please don't call a whole group of people degrading names and otherwise disrespect everyone in either political party.

Democrats are good people generally and so are Republicans and Independents and Greens and Libertarians.

[jasd]

;0

"honesty": humbly, I consider myself the sine qua non of honesty...

It seems my "honesty" is what engendered the brouhaha.

The last word is yours. Have at it, Neil D.

[John317]

Not here and not now. PM if you need to. No more personal arguing here. Stop now.

[carolaa]

When you say Mexico could justifiably send people across secretly to take action, you are acknowledging this right.

In the case of the Navaho, what do you think should have been done?

I am acknowledging it in a covert sense, yes, but not in the sense where you send your military over without declaring war. If a country can't get it worked out diplomatically or covertly, then they should declare war. I think forceful entry into another country is grounds for a declaration of war by the other country. I can't imagine any country forcing themselves into our country and us not responding with equal or greater force. That's as it should be, imo. If we force ourselves into Pakistan or Afghanistan, they have every right to blow us up the second we cross the border.

We need more diplomacy and respect for others. We need to look at what we have done in the past to make so much of the world so mad at us. It is not because they are jealous of our freedoms that they hate us. More and more of the world hates us now than ever, and it would do us good to think about why that is. Many Americans have this idea that if we do it, it it good and right, that we can do no wrong. In other words, many Americans think we are god. What arrogance. That's what Jeremiah Wright was trying to address. Pride/arrogance is something God hates, and He will do the opposite of bless it. (Um, let's see, I'm thinking the opposite of bless might start with a d.....)

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

When you say Mexico could justifiably send people across secretly to take action, you are acknowledging this right.

In the case of the Navaho, what do you think should have been done?

I am acknowledging it in a covert sense, yes, but not in the sense where you send your military over without declaring war. If a country can't get it worked out diplomatically or covertly, then they should declare war. I think forceful entry into another country is grounds for a declaration of war by the other country. I can't imagine any country forcing themselves into our country and us not responding with equal or greater force. That's as it should be, imo. If we force ourselves into Pakistan or Afghanistan, they have every right to blow us up the second we cross the border.

What do you think about terrorists who cross borders to carry out war and killing all the time?

If Afghanistan has the right to do that, don't we Americans also have the same right?

Afghanistan wants us in that country-- except for the Taliban.

What should Afghanistan's government do about the people crossing their borders from Pakistan to carry out warfare?

What should we do about those who cross our own borders to carry out killing?

Should we declare war?

How does a nation declare war against people who are in a lot of different countries but who are united in war against another nation and cross borders for that purpose?

[John317]

In the case of the Navaho, what do you think should have been done? This was a case of people in the US who were crossing the border with Mexico for the purpose of harming Mexican citizens. Do you believe the US had a duty and responsibility to stop such invasions from occurring across its borders and into a neighboring country?

[Neil D]

What do you think about terrorists who cross borders to carry out war and killing all the time?

If Afghanistan has the right to do that, don't we Americans also have the same right?

Afghanistan wants us in that country-- except for the Taliban.

What should Afghanistan's government do about the people crossing their borders from Pakistan to carry out warfare?

What should we do about those who cross our own borders to carry out killing?

Should we declare war?

How does a nation declare war against people who are in a lot of different countries but who are united in war against another nation and cross borders for that purpose?

The US has two imperatives.....protect our boarders and get the terrorists who would attack us. Now what is there that isn't clear in that imperative, John? I would expect no less from other countries....That is why deploymacy is so important. It is a way of letting others know where we are coming from and a way for others to let us know where they are coming from.....

And we work it out....simmple as that...

[Woody]

I am sorry, John...but Americans don't need to insult thier friends/allies....

And in this case, jasd needs his royal b*** kicked off the forum and think about what he said for then next 30 days.

Quote:

Play nice, everyone

Come on, John...You don't beat up on everyone when only ONE child is being disrespectful. You take out the ONE child and you disciple him....You don't go beat up everyone else when they have not done anythnig wrong...What you are doing is the same thing as Congress is doing....placaiting everyone when it is a couple of jerks that need a good whoopin'.

Neil. What you fail to realize is that JOHN317 is the Global Moderator here on this forum. HE has the power to play with who he wants not to or not play with whomever he decides ...for whatever reason he decides. He can kick out any one that he wants for any reason he wants. Those are the rules. So, he can talk to any or all that may be playing nice or not nice. It simply does not matter. What matters is if JOHN317 wants to play or not play. Them there are the rules.

Hmmmmmmmmmmm.

[jasd]

>>If we force ourselves into Pakistan or Afghanistan, they have every right to blow us up the second we cross the border.<<

I think that all countries engaged in armed conflict hold the right of pursuit; that is, if a country, neighbour to the conflict – extends sanctuary to one or other of the belligerents – they ought to expect that the right of pursuit will be implemented.

Then, there is the sort of force that the once USSR employed by fomenting such as ‘agrarian reforms’ with their attendant ‘freedom fighters’.

Arrogance: Can there be a recitation of facts – without an accompanying groveling, mewly demeanor? Those predisposed, infer much: France, under its previous Govt might provide an example.

Additionally, there are much too many of the hoi polloi who simply cannot parse and collate input to their synapses – such ‘input’ as that disseminated by the, ahem, ‘progressive’ media.

(I’ve not addressed the immediately above with reference to you or anyone else this list: it is simply a recitation of fact) :-o

[jasd]

>>What do you think about terrorists who cross borders to carry out war and killing all the time?<<

Where we once thought that we had only to secure our borders – we now find the emerging phenomenon of native-born minorities who commit terrorist acts.

(in passing: doesn't Writ state that there will come a time when all will be returned to their own country of ethnicity?)[/extemporaneously]

>>How does a nation declare war against people who are in a lot of different countries but who are united in war against another nation and cross borders for that purpose?<<

You insert yourself so close to them that your halitosis kills them. Tandem that, you build scores of bases which permit logistical support.

[carolaa]

Originally Posted By: carolaa

I am acknowledging it in a covert sense, yes, but not in the sense where you send your military over without declaring war. If a country can't get it worked out diplomatically or covertly, then they should declare war. I think forceful entry into another country is grounds for a declaration of war by the other country. I can't imagine any country forcing themselves into our country and us not responding with equal or greater force. That's as it should be, imo. If we force ourselves into Pakistan or Afghanistan, they have every right to blow us up the second we cross the border. [/quote']

What do you think about terrorists who cross borders to carry out war and killing all the time?

If Afghanistan has the right to do that, don't we Americans also have the same right?

Afghanistan wants us in that country-- except for the Taliban.

What should Afghanistan's government do about the people crossing their borders from Pakistan to carry out warfare?

What should we do about those who cross our own borders to carry out killing?

Should we declare war?

How does a nation declare war against people who are in a lot of different countries but who are united in war against another nation and cross borders for that purpose?

I don't know what else to say that I haven't already said. I don't claim to have all the answers, but we need to find out why people are so angry with us that they would come across our borders and wreak havoc. What did we do to them to make them respond like that? If a country is having a problem with people coming over and causing problems, then they need to secure their borders better and have some discussions with the country(s) of origin. If the governments of those countries are not interested in talking, then we have options like sanctions, appealing to the U.N., etc. But no, you can't just intrude into other countries because you want to. You should have clear reasons and evidence, exhaust other options, and build support among other nations before declaring war.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

What do you think about terrorists who cross borders to carry out war and killing all the time?

If Afghanistan has the right to do that, don't we Americans also have the same right?

Afghanistan wants us in that country-- except for the Taliban.

What should Afghanistan's government do about the people crossing their borders from Pakistan to carry out warfare?

What should we do about those who cross our own borders to carry out killing?

Should we declare war?

How does a nation declare war against people who are in a lot of different countries but who are united in war against another nation and cross borders for that purpose?

The US has two imperatives.....protect our boarders and get the terrorists who would attack us. Now what is there that isn't clear in that imperative, John? I would expect no less from other countries....That is why deploymacy is so important. It is a way of letting others know where we are coming from and a way for others to let us know where they are coming from.....

And we work it out....simmple as that...

Simple as that?

And what if diplomacy does not work?

[carolaa]

Then you have carrots & sticks. Then you have engaging other nations in the dispute (kinda like Matthew 18). Then - when all else fails - you consider going to war. If we want to be a force for good, we have to play nice with the rest of the world. That doesn't mean we can't be tough, but we can't be bullies and expect the rest of the world to support us. Bullies never last forever. Sooner or later they get their bluff called or they get beat up. The rest of the world knows that, and they are watching.

[John317]

We're in basic agreement here. The real difference is in the way we see America. You see the whole world hating America, and America as the "bad guy" in the world. I do not. That is partly what will determine this election: how Americans view themselves in relation to the world.

This is reflected in the campaigns. For instance, I don't think I have seen an Obama/Biden rally where the crowd spontaneously breaks into a chant of, "USA, USA, USA, USA," etc. It happens a lot of McCain rallies. Why the difference?

Or am I completely wrong about this, and Obama's supporters also spontaneously chant the same?

My belief is that if Democrats run with a view that is always putting America down and feels that Americans are "clinging to their religion and guns out of depression," etc., the Democrats won't be helping themselves to gain the White House.

[carolaa]

I agree. It's always the candidates who wear flag pins and stand in front of the flag and tell us what we want to hear who get elected. Seriously. The ones who tell us they might have to raise taxes in order begin to extricate ourselves from the debt that's going to kill the country - they never get elected. Americans are obsessed with their own present comfort, and whoever can "promise" to continue that will win. That's an easy prediction.

[Neil D]

We're in basic agreement here. The real difference is in the way we see America. You see the whole world hating America, and America as the "bad guy" in the world. I do not. That is partly what will determine this election: how Americans view themselves in relation to the world.

This is reflected in the campaigns. For instance, I don't think I have seen an Obama/Biden rally where the crowd spontaneously breaks into a chant of, "USA, USA, USA, USA," etc. It happens a lot of McCain rallies. Why the difference?

Or am I completely wrong about this, and Obama's supporters also spontaneously chant the same?

My belief is that if Democrats run with a view that is always putting America down and feels that Americans are "clinging to their religion and guns out of depression," etc., the Democrats won't be helping themselves to gain the White House.

Most Americans have not been outside the US. They have not engaged in discussion with non-American people and learned from them. They have not seen thier POV. They have not seen the way in which non-USA people have viewed them, nor been in termoil as WE have patched things up with a band-aid and gave a prayer that things would work out, as everything crumbled down around the natives.

When ever I practiced public speaking, I viewed myself in a mirror so that I could see what I was conveying as I said the words.. For drama, I would actually practice in the mirror to convey an emotion. sometimes what I thought would pass for laughter, would actually pass for hillarity...Sometimes that's ok, but to be precise, it's better to practice facial features to convey the right message....And I know we've seen bad actors before...who mess up the play due to thier bad acting....Bush is one of those bad actors....

[jasd]

>>Bush is one of those bad actors....<<

Umm, why would a man like Dubya want to act? I think it better to reflect the maxim 'To thine own self be true'.

Same people are too dramatic; y'know, similarly, all those political science majors inhabiting that place called Hollywood and like environs - never-never land.

[John317]

I go outside the US on a regular basis. Practically all of my wife's family lives outside the US, and we are close friends of some Muslims from Afghanistan. The friend of mine with whom I stayed while photographing the demonstrations in Denver often travels to China and India.

I enjoy talking with people from all over. It's a myth that people in foreign countries hate us or hate the United States. The French people recently elected a government very friendly toward the US.

[Neil D]

You are the exception rather than the rule, John. And yes, there are plenty of country with no animosity toward the US. However, there are different ways to solve various problems due to differnt thinking. And while the French have a pro-US goverment, they have often found a third way to solve various crisis' between countrys that Europe in general have advocated....Often ignored, but nevertheless, a different perspective that bears looking into....

[Neil D]

Let's change this a bit....

Have you guys seen any of this in the media-

comments section from the Christian Science Monitor

McCAIN AND FAMILY VALUES

The Planned Parenthood ad turns a perverted attack on its head, asking why McCain objects to protecting toddlers.

“Every eight minutes a child is sexually abused. That’s why Barack Obama supported legislation to teach children how to protect themselves,” a female narrator says in it.

“Now John McCain is twisting the facts and attacking Sen. Obama. Doesn’t McCain want our children to protect themselves from sex offenders? Or after 26 years in Washington is he just another politician who’ll say anything to get elected?”

Does McCain, like Tom DeLay, support child abuse? Why is he attacking legislation with the purpose of protecting our kids? Is the a ploy to protect his republican friends like Idaho senator Larry Craig?

What are McCain’s views on pedophilia?

BOOZE FOR KIDS

Barack Obama does not want to lower the legal drinking age from 21 to 18. John McCain is not so clear on whether he supports such a move.

McCain has routinely sought to steer clear of alcohol-related matters. His wife, Cindy, is the chairwoman of the Hensley & Co. beer distribution company. Phoenix-based Hensley is one of the largest Anheuser Busch Companies Inc. distributorships in the country.

McCain has routinely not voted on issues directly impacting Hensley and alcohol-related sectors during his time in Congress.

The Obama campaign said the Illinois senator does not support a lower legal drinking age.

MARRIAGE

McCain likes to illustrate his moral fiber by referring to his five years as a prisoner-of-war in Vietnam and to demonstrate his commitment to family values. The truth is somewhat different.

The first Mrs McCain casts is the mother to McCain’s three eldest children. Carol, who was a famous beauty and a successful swimwear model when they married in 1965, was the woman McCain dreamed of during his long incarceration and torture in Vietnam’s infamous ‘Hanoi Hilton’ prison and the woman who faithfully stayed at home looking after the children and waiting anxiously for news.

But when McCain returned to America in 1973, he discovered his wife had been disfigured in a terrible car crash three years earlier. Her pelvis and one arm were shattered and she suffered massive internal injuries. In order to save her legs, surgeons had been forced to cut away huge sections of shattered bone, taking with it her tall, willowy figure. She was confined to a wheelchair and was forced to use a catheter.

When John McCain came home from Vietnam, she had gained a lot of weight and bore little resemblance to her old self. ‘My marriage ended because John McCain didn’t want to be 40, he wanted to be 25. You know that happens…it just does.’

Some of McCain’s acquaintances are less forgiving, however. They portray the politician as a self-centered womanizer who effectively abandoned his crippled wife to ‘play the field’. They accuse him of finally settling on Cindy, a former rodeo beauty queen, for financial reasons. McCain was then earning little more than $40,000 a year as a naval officer, while his new father-in-law, Jim Hensley, was a multi-millionaire who had impeccable political connections.

[Dr. Shane]

Planned Parenthood certainly isn't in a position to lecture anyone on family values.

Quote:

Is the a ploy to protect his republican friends like Idaho senator Larry Craig?

That really lifts the level of the discussion doesn't it?

McCain says the greatest moral failure of his life was the failure of his first marriage. Perhaps Planned Parenthood doesn't grasp the concept of repentance, most Americans do.

Will Planned Parenthood run ads about Barack Obama's alcohol and concain use next week?