Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin! It will become a seal. When it does become an issue those who oppose it will also oppose the "truth as it is in Christ" (the gospel)! Self-love...and self-seeking (which you keep ignoring) are the sins of iniquity. Ellen White clearly brings this out....So does the Bible. But the self-righteous ignores this. Clearly you are not measuring up, yet you keep pounding folks with law, law, law. And what's ironic is you only list the ones you can outwardly keep and those you can't you ignore. What utter self-righteousness! God hasn't changed the definition of sin. Sin is still sin. He can't change it, because the law is a transcript or written expression of God's character, and God's character never changes. Therefore His moral law cannot possibly change. We can be glad that God doesn't change. There are some things that even God can't do. One of those things is lie. He can't change his own character. Remember what the Bible calls sins of ignorance. See Lev. 4: 2, for instance. Just because we don't know it's a sin doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Once we are aware of it, God expects us to change and do what we know to be right, but while we are sincerely ignorant He doesn't hold us responsible for it. It is a principle we see also in Acts 17: 30-- "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent." There is no where that Ellen White or the Bible say breaking any of the commandments, including the fourth, is not a sin. God simply considers people's ignorance and lack of understanding. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo GOD: "You shall have no other gods before me." "You shall not make for yourself a carved image..." "You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain, for the LORD WILL NOT HOLD HIM GUILTLESS WHO TAKES HIS NAME IN VAIN." "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy." "Honor your father & your mother..." "You shall not murder." "You shall not commit adultery." "You shall not steal." "You shall not bear false witness..." "You shall not covet..." And Christ expanded the law. He taught that self-seeking and self-love were sin also. You keep the letter, Gerry, but you fail to keep the spirit. So cut the self-righteous nonsense. Rob Yes, he did, and he also taught that we should be loving and kind to everyone, especially to those who are our brothers in Christ, even if they disagree with us. You are right that Christ expanded the law. That means that he didn't make it smaller, or subtract one of the laws, making it suddenly 9 instead of 10. The Ten Commandments are still 10 Commandments. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 10, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 10, 2008 Sabbath breaking is not sin! It will become a seal. ... Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy? Why is anyone going to keep the seventh-day Sabbath when they believe it doesn't matter what the Ten Commandments say? If faith releases us from the law, as you believe it does, why does it matter which day of the week they keep holy? If it is not a sin now to break the Sabbath, wouldn't God be arbitrary to make it a sin suddenly at some time in the future? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin! Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 10, 2008 Share Posted October 10, 2008 Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 And then there is Paul -- as I pointed out above. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted October 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy? The day isn't holy...You aren't holy...only God is holy. The day pointed to a perfect & holy creation because all of it was made in God's image after His likeness. Days aren't holy....The 7th-day is a sign and what it points to is perfect and complete [holy]. Again it is written: [color:red]"So God blessed the seventh day AND MADE IT HOLY, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." Gen 2:3 ESV. That only God is ESSENTIALLY holy - we agree, but a holy God can declare anything holy as He wishes. And that includes the sanctuary and all that it contained, and even days, yes, especially the Sabbath. Quote: Quote: why does it matter which day of the week they keep holy? It doesn't....And only a holy person could keep something holy. Are you holy? Don't make me quote Ellen! Rob Yes, you are absolutely right - that only a holy person can keep somethig holy. That is why Jesus said, "You must be born again! That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn 3:7,6. The promise to the profane sinner is: "And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND BLAMELESS and above reproach before Him...." Col 1:21,22 ESV. "And by that will we have been sanctified [made holy - NCV, NLT, NIV, Amp] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10 ESV. This is the whole object of the atoning blood of Christ, to sanctify, i.e. make holy one who is profane/unholy, who was/is made such by sin. "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, FOR IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW; INDEED IT CANNOT. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7,8 ESV. So when a lawless rebel is born again, is given a holy heart, a holy mind, holy attitude, holy purposes. He now submits to God's law and keep it! Then the Sabbath to him becomes the sign, the seal, of sanctification by faith, the sign that sinful man cannot make himself holy, but that GOD CAN! Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy? The day isn't holy...You aren't holy...only God is holy. The day pointed to a perfect & holy creation because all of it was made in God's image after His likeness. Days aren't holy....The 7th-day is a sign and what it points to is perfect and complete [holy]. The Bible clearly says that the seventh day of the week is holy time. That means that God set it apart for holy purposes. Yes, the seventh day is holy. It belongs to God. The other days of the week belong to people and they can do on those days what they want. They can use those 6 days for their own ends. (This doesn't mean they are free to sin on them. It just means that 6 days are for us to work for our living and do as we please.) Quote: JOHN3:17-- -- why does it matter which day of the week they keep holy? ROBERT-- It doesn't....And only a holy person could keep something holy. Are you holy? Don't make me quote Ellen! I am not holy on my own. Apart from Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit, I'm evil. There is no one who is more conscious of this than I. But God forgives us when we agree with Him about our condition and His diagnosis. And the Bible says that believers who have accepted Christ completely are indeed holy, no matter what they have done in the past. We are given the righteousness of God's own Son. By faith, then, I am as righteous as Jesus Christ. He has put to my account all of His good deeds and His pure life. So I have been set apart for God's purpose. God owns me. I belong to God. I am his slave. I am glad to be his slave because being His slave is the only real freedom there is. I have been the slave of Satan, so I know he promises his slaves freedom, but it is a lie. There is only true liberty for the sons of God. 1 John 3: 1. Therefore, the Bible says I am a "saint" in the sense of being justified and sanctified. I am sure you are aware of the way the Bible uses these terms. Only holy people can keep the Sabbath holy. That means that only people who are totally given over to God can really keep the Sabbath holy. God promises to make us holy in this way. He does it through the Holy Spirit in our lives, which God gives to us as a gift when we are are in complete submission to Jesus. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 11, 2008 Guess that answers that. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin! It will become a seal. When it does become an issue those who oppose it will also oppose the "truth as it is in Christ" (the gospel)! Who says this? What evidence? What do you mean "an issue"? How will this happen? When it becomes an issue, why will anyone keep the 7th day Sabbath if they have been taught all along that the Ten Commandments don't matter or that it doesn't matter which day anyone keeps? Or will they "keep" it at all? Will they "obey" the Sabbath commandment? What exactly will happen in regard to the Sabbath at the time you speak of? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 11, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 11, 2008 ROBERT-- Self-love...and self-seeking (which you keep ignoring) are the sins of iniquity. Ellen White clearly brings this out....So does the Bible. But the self-righteous ignores this. I'm not ignoring anything. I don't make accusations. I just talk about issues, etc. Quote: ROBERT-- Clearly you are not measuring up, yet you keep pounding folks with law, law, law. And what's ironic is you only list the ones you can outwardly keep and those you can't you ignore. What utter self-righteousness! Sorry you think that way. I talk about the law here because that is the subject of the thread. I don't consider it "pounding" to talk about God's law in the context of faith. If I knew you felt that way, I would shut up and not say another word about God's law to you. It is not pounding to me. It is only pounding to those who dislike it or cannot submit to it. If you tell me not to talk about it, I will stop mentioning it to you. I love Ps. 119. It is one my favorite chapters in the Bible. I never said I am "measuring up." There is always room for growth. The Holy Spirit continues to lovingly point out our sins and the things in our lives that we need to work on by His grace. Have you noticed? I'm glad He does. I pray that He does and that He never stops. He's getting us ready for heaven and also for the closing of human probation. I believe that time may not be too far off. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Who says this? What evidence? What do you mean "an issue"? How will this happen? Or will they "keep" it at all? Will they "obey" the Sabbath commandment? Hey, Mr. inquisitioner, cut the inquisition. Do you really think that by asking a zillion questions that your caused is helped? What it tells me is you are getting desperate! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Self-love...and self-seeking (which you keep ignoring) are the sins of iniquity. Ellen White clearly brings this out....So does the Bible. But the self-righteous ignores this. I'm not ignoring anything.... And then John ignores my reference above, but he's not ignoring it. Maybe you are just forgetful? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 11, 2008 Share Posted October 11, 2008 ... the Bible says that believers who have accepted Christ completely are indeed holy, no matter what they have done in the past. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 I talk about the law here because that is the subject of the thread. I don't consider it "pounding" to talk about God's law in the context of faith. If I knew you felt that way, I would shut up and not say another word about God's law to you. It is not pounding to me. It is only pounding to those who dislike it or cannot submit to it. If you tell me not to talk about it, I will stop mentioning it to you. I love Ps. 119. It is one my favorite chapters in the Bible. Well said. And then there is Romans 2:11-16 combining Law and Judgment in the Gospel as you point out above. Clearly you have been consulting Paul on this subject. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 The day isn't holy...You aren't holy...only God is holy. The day pointed to a perfect & holy creation because all of it was made in God's image after His likeness. Days aren't holy....The 7th-day is a sign and what it points to is perfect and complete [holy]. Again it is written: Quote: [color:red]"So God blessed the seventh day AND MADE IT HOLY, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." Gen 2:3 ESV. That only God is ESSENTIALLY holy - we agree, but a holy God can declare anything holy as He wishes. And that includes the sanctuary and all that it contained, and even days, yes, especially the Sabbath. Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 13, 2008 Share Posted October 13, 2008 Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men. And yes you do hold on to tradition.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Who says this? What evidence? What do you mean "an issue"? How will this happen? Or will they "keep" it at all? Will they "obey" the Sabbath commandment? Hey, Mr. inquisitioner, cut the inquisition. Do you really think that by asking a zillion questions that your caused is helped? What it tells me is you are getting desperate! Rob I am hoping you will answer some of them and in answering them you will think about some things. Hope springs eternal as they say. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 13, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 13, 2008 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Hey' date=' Mr. inquisitioner, cut the inquisition. Do you really think that by asking a zillion questions that your caused is helped? What it tells me is you are getting desperate! Rob[/quote'] I am hoping you will answer some of them and in answering them you will think about some things. Hope springs eternal as they say. John...you are not my teacher! To me you are enemy of the gospel. I see you as both a hypocrite and someone who is self-righteous. You are nothing like Christ....Nothing! I just hope I can spare others from your dangerous doctrines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: There is NOTHING in Scripture that I know of that gives me assurance that I can keep on living a life of sin and still enjoy the assurance of salvation. If you know of one, please, show it. Try John 3:16 . We all will sin until the day we die. That is clear. We WILL continue to live a life of sin. We will also have victories. The power is there. There is NO excuse to sin as Ellen White puts it. But we are sinners. And Jesus died for sinners. He did not die for those who have achieved a life without sin. He died for those who 'believe' in Him. So, we DO have the assurance that even though we keep living a life of sin ... we "still do enjoy the assurance of Salvation". Good works are just fine. I have no problem with them. But as soon as you tie them to salvation. I have an issue with you. That is not correct, as Christ showed us in His example, and what of Enoch and Elijah, were they sinning till they were taken up to heaven, I seriously doubt that. Sorry for your doubt. But yes. They were. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 14, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally Posted By: Reddogs That is not correct, as Christ showed us in His example, and what of Enoch and Elijah, were they sinning till they were taken up to heaven, I seriously doubt that. Sorry for your doubt. But yes. They were. None of us are justified, or set right with God, by obedience to the law of God. It is given to us as a gift, apart from works of any kind, just like it was to Abraham. But if Abraham had refused to obey God, he would have lost his justification. The same with us. "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects of our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost." 5 T 214. "God leads His people on, step by step. He brings them up to different points calculated to manifest what is in the heart. Some endure at one point, but fall off at the next. At every advanced point the heart is tested and tried a little closer. If the professed people of God find their hearts opposed to the straight work, it should convince them that they have a work to do to overcome, if they would not be spewed out of the mouth of the Lord." See 1 T 187 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 "Not one of us will ever receive the seal of God while our characters have one spot or stain upon them. It is left with us to remedy the defects of our characters, to cleanse the soul temple of every defilement. Then the latter rain will fall upon us as the early rain fell upon the disciples on the Day of Pentecost." 5 T 214. Oh boy....More salvation by works! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 None of us are justified, or set right with God, by obedience to the law of God. It is given to us as a gift, apart from works of any kind, just like it was to Abraham. But if Abraham had refused to obey God, he would have lost his justification. The same with us. Nice twist! Here's the heresy of John's teaching: 1] He admits you can't improve on your justification, but 2] He makes sanctification the means of justification. In other words if you aren't obeying (which he limits to the rules he can keep) you are unjustified. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 14, 2008 Share Posted October 14, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 None of us are justified, or set right with God, by obedience to the law of God. It is given to us as a gift, apart from works of any kind, just like it was to Abraham. But if Abraham had refused to obey God, he would have lost his justification. The same with us. Nice twist! Here's the heresy of John's teaching: 1] He admits you can't improve on your justification, but 2] He makes sanctification the means of justification. In other words if you aren't obeying (which he limits to the rules he can keep) you are unjustified. This sounds horrible Rob. How does someone fall for this kind of belief? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.