Patriotic Duty to Pay Higher Taxes?

[Woody]

I don't think we as Republicans are inconsistent. I think we are consistently inconsistent and that makes us consistent.

[carolaa]

Sounds like the same thing that is already happening.

[Dr. Shane]

No, if this was allowed to play out without government intervention we would likely see unemployment above 20%. (During the Great Depression we had unemployment over 25% and that was before women were in the workforce in any significant numbers. So in reality it was closer to 50% unemployment)

Since the US is such a large consumer of world goods, such high unemployment in the US would plunge the entire world into a depression. That is why I said we have a gun to our heads. The US government has to step up and bail the financial industry out of this regardless what the price is going to be (higher taxes, less federal spending or both).

There are a lot of housing on the market now for foreclosures. Even here in Texas we have subdivisions not even 10 years old that have half the homes empty. These were sold to people that didn't even have enough money to pay the first and last month's rent to get into an apartment. The Clinton and Bush Administrations were trying to make an affordable means for low income people to become home owners. That is admirable and I think it is hard to criticism them too much for that. But it didn't work out. Most of these sub-prime borrowers went default.

On top of that, speculators drove real estate incredibly high and the bubble popped - as we all knew it would. Now banks are stuck with a bunch of upside-down mortgages that people have defaulted on.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

If Republicans truly believed in small government, they would be horrified by the government nationalising major mortgage lenders and a huge insurance company... Where's the outcry?

I can't speak for Republicans and I don't favor what many consider "small" government. I do think however we have a gun to our heads. There isn't a lot of choice. If we let these institutions go down as they deserve, money will tighten up, banks will stop giving loans, business will stop expanding, people will stop buying cars and houses, unemployment will explode.

I had someone tell me that maybe we need a self correction by going into a depression....Prices were so high now that a few people needed to loose some of thier money to bring prices down...

I mentioned that it would probably create more problems...I was told that at least they would have thier lives.....

I thought that sad....

[fccool]

Um... Human beings are endowed by their creator with the characteristics of creativity and productivity. Everyone is good at some kind of productive, valuable work. That work is rewarded in our socieity with money - but the value of our work and the amount of that reward are only loosely related. If they were directly related, teachers, firemen and policemen would be the highest paid people in America. But your paycheck is just a convenient way to recognize your output and a convenient way to run a society. The work itself is its own reward - the ability to create and produce is an exercise of the soul.

Since I own a business and have employees, I don't get as many opportunities to actually put my hands on equipment and instruments and stuff as I used to - but since Ike came through Ohio, I've had a few chances to do the kind of work that I started doing in 1984 and that I love doing. There's nothing like the serenity of going out to work at some site, working on equipment all day, making it work better, making it more reliable, making it more efficient, eating lunch out of a paper bag in your truck, and going home at the end of the day with equal parts sweat and accomplishment. I dearly love doing that. When I get paid for doing that, whatever the figure is, I feel like my employer doesn't owe me a thing. It's like motocross. At its core, motocross is an exercise in searching for exactly the right line, exactly the right velocity, exactly the right rider inputs that will create a rhythm that synchronizes itself with your soul. It's really not even about winning and losing. It's about riding. It's about creativity and finding satisfaction, one rider at a time. Work isn't about wealth. Work is about work.

But when I pull up my ROTH and I try to figure out how to maximize my profits or protect myself from loss, that's meaningless to me. It is neither productive nor creative. It is nothing more than an exercise in greed and fear.

The social construct that says you have to be rich, you have to know all about investing, you have to retire at 55 with a million dollars - and that your wealth and your work are unrelated - is a lie that steals the value of work from people.

As far as I'm concerned, all those financial houses deserve to die. Let 'em crash. If the government wants to put money into the system, let them lend it directly to businesses that create jobs that offer people the chance to work. Let America be a country in which creative, productive people make things and do things that soothe their souls and build the nation.

I'm olger and I approve this rant.

If you would ran with this campaign I would vote ... I am not voting for anyone else though

The problem with today's patriots is that they reduce individuals to a subjects of the state. All those silly slogans like... "ask what you can do for your country", "serve your country", "support the troops"... these are used to build and burn the political straw men and to avoid the bigger issues.

Such issues would be... where does the individual choice fit in all of that? When a government spends 10 grand of a person who is not even been born... what kind of silly system is that?

Today we are paying more than half in our earnings to support the government structure... and 20% of the federal taxes goes to pay interest (not principal) on debt.

On top of that, instead of letting the economy self-correct and to punish the irresponsible "investment" companies for gambling on debt... the government steps in and rewards them with more money at our expense!!!! All of those people walk away with multi-million salaries, and the people like us are stuck at the bottom with the bill!

The worst thing about it is that there are people who are commending such actions as a good thing. The "experts" whos mistakes created the problem, are after all the experts and should be trusted, right?

So, instead of letting the thing burn to the ground, we support it because our lives "depend" on these people at the top stuffing their pockets by selling the debts of the poor.

I'm with olger on this . Let it burn. There are many things in this world that are worth fighting for, and this is not one of these things.

[Neil D]

I'm with olger on this . Let it burn. There are many things in this world that are worth fighting for, and this is not one of these things.

And I think this is sad also.....that someone would insist that civilization should burn....

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

I had someone tell me that maybe we need a self correction by going into a depression....

A recession is when there is negative growth in the GDP for two consecutive quarters or more. A depression is when that negative growth adds up to 10% or more. So a depression means the economy has shrunk by at least 10% - regardless how long it has taken (6 months or five years). Anyone saying we need a depression has no grasp on economics. Recessions come and go. Economies run in cycles and recessions are part of them. Depressions happen when government and the private sector work together to really mess things up bad. That is what we are trying to avoid but are in danger of going into right now.

[fccool]

No, if this was allowed to play out without government intervention we would likely see unemployment above 20%. (During the Great Depression we had unemployment over 25% and that was before women were in the workforce in any significant numbers. So in reality it was closer to 50% unemployment)

Since the US is such a large consumer of world goods, such high unemployment in the US would plunge the entire world into a depression. That is why I said we have a gun to our heads. The US government has to step up and bail the financial industry out of this regardless what the price is going to be (higher taxes, less federal spending or both).

There are a lot of housing on the market now for foreclosures. Even here in Texas we have subdivisions not even 10 years old that have half the homes empty. These were sold to people that didn't even have enough money to pay the first and last month's rent to get into an apartment. The Clinton and Bush Administrations were trying to make an affordable means for low income people to become home owners. That is admirable and I think it is hard to criticism them too much for that. But it didn't work out. Most of these sub-prime borrowers went default.

On top of that, speculators drove real estate incredibly high and the bubble popped - as we all knew it would. Now banks are stuck with a bunch of upside-down mortgages that people have defaulted on.

Shane, I know that I will sound like a broken record, but the subprime landing is only a tip of the iceberg. If fractional reserve banks by definition are insolvent unless these have some kind of liquid assets available (which they don't)... it is only a matter of time that the loans turn sub prime.

I understand that your position is that this is not going to change any time soon, yet this does not mean that we should ignore the issue either.

If a financial institution gets its revenues by means of interest from the loans, then it's in the interest of the financial institution to make as many loans as possible. Now, if the financial institution is not risking their own assets... it can't get any better than that. These people know that if they default... they can walk away with their salaries, or get bailed out by the Fed or the government because the financial system is dependent on them.

So what you are saying that the government should bail these out because we need these parasites to cover the holes in our body, otherwise the blood will sip out. But these are killing us! So instead of removing the parasites (it would be painful) and applying a band aid, we just let these suck us dry because we afraid that the removal will be painful.

The system will get worse, and all the current government can do is to suppress the symptoms of the illness at the expense of the future generations.

So, while it's true that by injecting more money and bailing out these institutions does avoid the immediate consequences... what does it mean for the future? Do you really think that 1000 Trillion derivative market can ever be resolved? Somebody has to loose... and find a real job... like make things instead of shuffle debt around or manipulate the currency at the expense of the general population.

[carolaa]

You may be right that we have a gun to our heads. I have no doubt that the Congress feels that way. I just have a huge problem with such a few people having so much power now. I find it really scary. Almost scary enough to agree with Olger.

[fccool]

Quote:

I had someone tell me that maybe we need a self correction by going into a depression....

A recession is when there is negative growth in the GDP for two consecutive quarters or more. A depression is when that negative growth adds up to 10% or more. So a depression means the economy has shrunk by at least 10% - regardless how long it has taken (6 months or five years). Anyone saying we need a depression has no grasp on economics. Recessions come and go. Economies run in cycles and recessions are part of them. Depressions happen when government and the private sector work together to really mess things up bad. That is what we are trying to avoid but are in danger of going into right now.

Depressions are natural. And there are many schools of economic theory... to say that one has no grasp of economics based on a statement is silly . Current economy is over inflated due to artificially available credit! It is only due to the available cheap credit (debt) that the economy where it is right now.

When people start defaulting, and the loans are not available to cover their existing debts... you get a depression. Depression is a symptom of a problem. It's like a headache that tells you that something is wrong and you need to lay down and relax.

The problem with current neo-Keynsian system (which even Keynes himself came to loath) is that it does not believe in free market economy. It's free market economy on paper, but when it comes to action... there are none.

So what we have today is not a real GDP, it's GDP inflated due to artificial demand that was brought about by abundance of free credit. What happens when you can't afford minimum payments, or even interest? Who pays for the irresponsible lifestyle?

That's when depression happens, and it's a lesson and a worning that you can't just spend yourself into prosperity by borrowing from the speculated future.

What you suggest, is that we should suppress that warning by rewarding the irresponsible people by giving them more money... at the expense of those who work hard and save.

[fccool]

Quote:

And I think this is sad also.....that someone would insist that civilization should burn....

I think it's sad, that someone would misinterpret what I'm saying. Do you know who will benefit the most from this burn? The third world, because now there will not be that imaginary barrier that American Labor somehow is worth more than the foreign one. The entire world actually would be a better off. Sure the Westerners would have to downgrade and live below their means once again, but what would you expect... this can't go on forever.

People will catch up and try to exploit the system by trying to get in the game. Why should only banks get all the fun of getting profits by manipulation of digits and paper?

The "America nightmare" is that you can get rich by letting your money do work for you while you just make proper portfolio adjustments. Eventually, someone has to do some real work. The world can't revolve around people who manipulate digits.