To the apostates among us.

[rush4hire]

My concern is about those in our church who keep pushing their strange new ideals on us. They:

1. Push gays into church membership.

2. Push women pastors

3. Push the "Immaculate Conception" and "Original Sin" doctrines.

4. Push the idea that sin is too powerful for us to ever overcome, and that we'll just have to continue living in sin, no matter what we do.

5. Push an attack against the Law of God by saying sin is something besides breaking God's law.

6. Push the idea that Ellen White was not a real prophet and the testimonies can't be trusted.

7. Push an attack on the Bible, saying the Bible can't be trusted, that it's too complicated for us to understand, and that the scriptures conflict with each other.

8. Push weird interpretations, like that Job was being punished by God for his self-righteousness.

9. Push the idea that Job and others where not speaking by inspiration, but out of their own self-righteousness. Another attack on the Bible.

10. Push an attack on the character of God for stoning people to death for certain very grievous sins.

And many other things do they keep pushing and pushing and pushing. And they are doing it in unison, too. Like an organized team.

I ask them:

What is going on here? The gig is up. Are you working with the Jesuits, (aka: Knights of Columbus), to destroy the SDA church? Otherwise what is your motive to want to destroy the SDA church and turn it into something completely different? Are you working to bring us in ecumenical fellowship with the Roman Catholic church?

I want some answers.

Don't try to say I'm unloving.

Don't try to make me look like the bad guy.

Don't try and say I'm pointing fingers.

Don't try to ridicule me and make a mockery of the fact that the Jesuits have been pushing Protestant denominations into the ecumenical movement, and many Jesuits have already been discovered among us, trying to push their ideals.

Only strait answers will be accepted. All sentimental dribble will be ignored.

And if anyone feels the same way, then don't fail to speak up, before you no longer have the chance to do so.

And why would I not be surprised if this post got moved or deleted?

[Bravus]

Or, you know, some of us are just trying to get by and survive and understand.

[Neil D]

I don't subscribe to all those things....in fact, most of those things that you are putting up there....I have no desire to learn more about.....

What I want to know is how do you live with yourself?

No, really....Do you find that people are normally hostile toward you? Do you find that in their presence, many people become quiet, silent...Do you find that when you are criticizing you are likely to come to blows or at least red in the face? Have you normally chaulked it up to them being in alignment with some form of the Catholic church? or even satanism?

Do you find yourself reassured when you go over the same thoughts/doctrines? Do you find that when someone is leading you outside those thought patterns that you automatically move a substantial distance away from this person?

Do you find yourself extolling the same subjects over and over again? Do you find it harder and harder to be creative with praise on the subjects that are near and dear to your heart?

If you do,have you had any substancial relationship in the last year? If not, you may be suffering from a classic disorder called dysfunctionalizm...While not so coming within Society, it is found in higher concentration in Adventist circles.

[Bravus]

There are two different points here: the beliefs themselves and rush4hire's contention that those beliefs are part of some sort of Jesuit/Catholic infiltration or conspiracy.

I recognise that some of those beliefs arise here from time to time (although honestly, I think about 4 items on that Top Ten are beliefs peculiar to our friend Robert), but completely reject the Jesuit conspiracy explanation.

[Bravus]

I assume what you're looking for a straight answers, rather than strait (narrow) ones. As I said above, I completely reject the idea of any Jesuit infiltration - that's an old shibboleth that should have been laid to rest in the 60s or before.

But here are my responses on these issues:

1. Push gays into church membership

I think what you mean is 'stop pushing gay people out of church membership'. God loves everyone, and the church is a hospital for sinners. No-one is perfect and we each have our struggles. It is unbiblical to require that people solve their problems by themselves before they can enter salvation or the church.

2. Push women pastors

This is indeed a vexed issue, but again it's more a matter of getting out of their way as they serve God rather than 'pushing' them. God clearly can use women, has in the past and will in the future. Our petty squabbles about what kind of human 'license' we give them just get in the way of serving God.

3. Push the "Immaculate Conception" and "Original Sin" doctrines

Who here have you heard say that Mary was born of a virgin? That is the Immaculate Conception doctrine. Or do you mean something different. 'Original Sin' is a doctrine about human nature, and is a vexed question, open to discussion. We can certainly discuss it in the Theology forum if that's useful.

4. Push the idea that sin is too powerful for us to ever overcome, and that we'll just have to continue living in sin, no matter what we do

Meh, the eternal argument-that's-not-an-argument within Adventism: lots of people saying exactly the same thing using slightly different words and thinking they're completely opposed.

5. Push an attack against the Law of God by saying sin is something besides breaking God's law

There are several definitions of sin in the Bible and any straight reading of the Bible will confirm that. Claiming that this is not the case is arguing against Scripture.

6. Push the idea that Ellen White was not a real prophet and the testimonies can't be trusted

Two separate ideas there. I believe Ellen White was a true prophet but not that she was infallible.

7. Push an attack on the Bible, saying the Bible can't be trusted, that it's too complicated for us to understand, and that the scriptures conflict with each other

The Scriptures are not too complicated for us to understand, but they are complicated. Einstein said "Everything must be made as simple as possible but not simpler". Sometimes the quest for simplicity leads to being simplistic.

8. Push weird interpretations, like that Job was being punished by God for his self-righteousness

Paging Dr. Robert

9. Push the idea that Job and others where not speaking by inspiration, but out of their own self-righteousness. Another attack on the Bible

Ditto

10. Push an attack on the character of God for stoning people to death for certain very grievous sins

I'm not sure about an attack on the character of God, but certainly a question and a challenge to our own understanding of who God is.

I'm trying to be as clear and as straight with you as I possibly can.

[Bravus]

Dear mods, I'll understand if you do feel you need to disappear this thread after our friend's rather aggressive title and opening, but I'll miss the time I put into responding.

[John317]

I believe that's helpful, Bravus. Not that it resolves the issues, of course, as I know you realize, but it advances the discussion and, hopefully, also the thinking about the questions that Rush brought up.

[rush4hire]

I don't subscribe to all those things....in fact, most of those things that you are putting up there....I have no desire to learn more about.....

What I want to know is how do you live with yourself?

No, really....Do you find that people are normally hostile toward you? Do you find that in their presence, many people become quiet, silent...Do you find that when you are criticizing you are likely to come to blows or at least red in the face? Have you normally chaulked it up to them being in alignment with some form of the Catholic church? or even satanism?

Do you find yourself reassured when you go over the same thoughts/doctrines? Do you find that when someone is leading you outside those thought patterns that you automatically move a substantial distance away from this person?

Do you find yourself extolling the same subjects over and over again? Do you find it harder and harder to be creative with praise on the subjects that are near and dear to your heart?

If you do,have you had any substancial relationship in the last year? If not, you may be suffering from a classic disorder called dysfunctionalizm...While not so coming within Society, it is found in higher concentration in Adventist circles.

[Bravus]

Oh dude, you are priceless. You start a thread calling everyone who disagrees with you 'apostates', and then accuse others of being mean and insulting? Gimme a break.

[olger]

There is some truth to Rush's list, I have seen the confluence of those trends.

[rush4hire]

Oh dude, you are priceless. You start a thread calling everyone who disagrees with you 'apostates', and then accuse others of being mean and insulting? Gimme a break.

Well, if this is about my own personal beliefs and interpretations, then I owe someone an apology.

But this is about the pillars of our faith, the very house of God, which God himself has established:

[color:#BF0000]John 2:17 And his disciples remembered that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

Psalms 69:9 For the zeal of thine house hath eaten me up; and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me.

This is not eating you up? You don't feel any indignation? Do you want things to be so complicated and confusing that we can each have our own interpretations? We have been teaching the world that there is such thing as absolute, undeniable, truth, that has no room for misinterpretation.

[color:#BF0000]2 Peter 1:20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

An attack against Truth, is an attack against Jesus.

[color:#BF0000]John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Finally.

[color:#BF0000]1 Cor. 1:10 Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and [that] there be no divisions among you; but [that] ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

We don't need a new theology. What we need are new ways to get what we already have... to the world.

Look at what Amazing Facts is doing. Their AFCOE project is really quite impressive. That's something you can invest in.

Now Doug Bachelor, and many others, have had revelations and new, nifty little interpretations and see symbolism that we normally don't catch. Like that ram that was provided for Abraham. He pointed out that it was caught in the thorns. Those thorns foreshadowed the crown of thorns given to Jesus. These are edifying. But they never change the pillars that are already established and never conflict with the old interpretations.

But beware, when a shortcut is offered. An easy way out. Some new thing comes along which is radically different. It's like: "Hey don't worry about all that homework you are behind on. You are in the wrong class anyway. Here's a whole new class. Oh, wonderful. I was getting way behind on what the Lord expects of me. I can just throw away this whole stack of homework."

I know how that is. We probably all do. I was about to go running after the Shepherd's Rod movement, 'cause I thought they where just real conservative. Of course, I never went there. Their setup just didn't make sense. They just kept doing in-reach and no out-reach. They are like a dog chasing his own tail. Outreach sets the example.

[carolaa]

Oh dude, you are priceless. You start a thread calling everyone who disagrees with you 'apostates', and then accuse others of being mean and insulting? Gimme a break.

I agree with this, Rush. There are people who would be happy to have a discussion with you, but when you ask such inflammatory questions and write such lengthy posts - that is not really a discussion.

[Woody]

Quote:

"You are a really mean guy."

Hmmmm

I find it amazing what is considered a "personal attack" and what is not.

Just amazing ....

[Bravus]

OK, I admit it.

I'm a Jesuit.

A Bene Jesuit.

[olger]

Do you have a black cloak?

[Neil D]

OK, I admit it.

I'm a Jesuit.

A Bene Jesuit.

Well, not to be outdone, I have a confession to make....

Remember the Illuminati ? ...Well, I am in the upper echelons of the organization and I admit that the Adventist church has been a thorn in our side for a long time.

[i have put up a notice on our local community bridge is up for sale. I have exclusive rights and am willing to part with it at a very reasonable price.]

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

you guys are too funny !!!!!

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

Oh dude, you are priceless. You start a thread calling everyone who disagrees with you 'apostates', and then accuse others of being mean and insulting? Gimme a break.

Well, if this is about my own personal beliefs and interpretations, then I owe someone an apology.

But this is about the pillars of our faith, the very house of God, which God himself has established:

"Dude", it is about YOUR personal beliefs...and how you interpret the bible....and man, it is so insulting to the Adventist church as a whole..

I have been in contact with a Catholic Priest...He is, in my opinion, Satan incarnate..He is abusive, he likes to rub it in when he makes a good point and he will twist the knife once he stabs you in the back. And he is abusive to his own parishners, AND they still support him....It's amazing...but us, being on the Catholic's churches radar....They are so big that they can't see us....And even if they could, we are little threat to them.

And you have to admit, any policy that is exclusionary to a group of people is hate based. [i am talking about Gays here, although catholics would also apply]. Much of the SDA theology that has been popular in our church is really a REACTION to something bad, ie Catholisism, gays, rapture theory....

My challenge to you is to find a theological system that is proactive, and not reactive to todays world.

[fccool]

Rush4Fire, I think it's important to realize while addressing all of the points given... it is YOUR OWN faith that you are responsible for. Not the faith of everyone around you.

I think if you deeply examine yourself, then you would be surprised to find much deficiencies within yourself. I certainly do. I don't think it's ok, but at times I simply overlook some things that I do. We are living in the world of sin, and at times it is extremely hard to swim against the current. But what keeps me going is the knowledge that I have not given up... and that the Spirit convicts me if I did intact do something wrong.

So, it would be quite presumptuous on my part to call out on sins of others if I have mine to deal with first and there's a camel leg in my mouth, and I certainly need all the help and encouragement I get.

Sure, there is some bad theology, but it's personal decisions that people will be judged on... not the factoids that they "know". All of us know the correct answers on paper... it's just like with little kids... Jesus is the answer for everything... but when it comes to action, I think most of us would fail.

We need ... they are PEOPLE... not walking theological fact regurgitators. None of us will get everything right all the time. We will be mistaken and adamantly stupid for various reasons. Yet, why give up on people?

Even Jesuits are people. Why not view them as that? We have to give space to people in their search for truth. When it's all said and done, the only thing that will matter is what YOU've done... not Jesuits, or the people described in the list.

[Woody]

[phkrause]

excellent post.

pk

[skyblue888]

It is not only a possibility that the church has been infiltrated by Jesuits but a fact. To think that it is a far fetched idea is being naive or uninformed. It was even prophesied thousands of years before it happened.

"The kings of the earth and all the inhabitants of the world would not have believed that the adversary could enter the gates of Jerusalem." Lamentations 4:12.

Mrs. White in The Great Controversy plainly stated that they infiltrate churches as well as governments.

sky

[skyblue888]

Saul and his armies were in Goliath's radar but David wasn't. The SDA denomination is in the World Council of Churches' radar today (which includes the Catholic Church) but God's Davids aren't.

sky

[nuff sed]

Skyblue wrote :"It is not only a possibility that the church has been infiltrated by Jesuits but a fact. To think that it is a far fetched idea is being naive or uninformed. It was even prophesied thousands of years before it happened"

I would like to know how many Jesuits we have "caught" so far. preaching from our pulpits.

[skyblue888]

If we are not aware of their presence among us, we have been "caught" and not they.

sky

If Jesuits infiltrate churches as Mrs. White has stated, then it is in their utmost interest to infiltrate the SDA church for the Adventists would be their most formidable enemies or obstacle to regaining papal supremacy.