Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[Robert]

Let's cut the chase and go right to the point. Both the Sabbath and Circumcision are called signs:

Sabbath:

Exodus 31:14 Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people....17 It [the Sabbath] will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.

[Please note that according to the context "cut off" means you must be put to death - you must die!]

Circumcision:

Genesis 17:9 Then God said to Abraham, “As for you, you must keep my covenant, you and your descendants after you for the generations to come. 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you....14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh [penis], will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."

Both the Sabbath and Circumcision are called signs. Signs (or symbols) always point to a truth. The truth is what is important, so we must not get caught up in only the sign.

In any case both the Sabbath and Circumcision are signs. Failure for the Jews to acknowledge these signs led to death. As already stated, to be "cut off" means to die. I'm sure, after all, you have heard the Biblical expression "cut off from the land of the living"?

So in both cases obedience was required. Why then were the Judaizers wrong in stating the following?

Acts 15:1 Some men [believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees - see verse 5] came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved [i.e., you'll be cut off].”

Let's keep to the topic.

Rob

[Robert]

So in both cases obedience was required. Why then were the Judaizers wrong in stating the following?

Before answering this question you need to look at a very, very important point Paul made in the book of Romans:

Romans 4:9 We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

See verse 3: What does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

10 Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? [size:20pt]It was not after, but before!

Clearly Abraham stood justified by faith alone long before he was circumcised! So how many years did Abraham remain uncircumcised?

When Abraham departed from Haran he was 75 years old. How old was he when he was circumcised? 99 years old! So for 24 years Abraham remained justified by faith alone. No circumcision was required of him. Let's continue:

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

My point? For 24 years Abraham was considered or accounted righteous by faith. All those years Abraham was uncircumcised.

1] What happened 24 years later where circumcision became a requirement of God?

2] Also, again, why were the Judaizers wrong in mandating obedience to this sign?

Rob

[Woody]

Quote:

Romans 4:9 We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Free at Last

Free at Last

Free at Last !!!

[Robert]

Quote:

Romans 4:9 We have been saying that Abraham’s faith was credited to him as righteousness.

Free at Last

Free at Last

Free at Last !!!

Yes...amen!

What I am going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that these signs, the Sabbath and circumcision, are inadvertently connected.

In both cases I will show that believers are accounted righteous by faith alone in the doing of Christ and that their Sabbath keeping does not make them righteous. But to understand this truth you must understand why circumcision was required of Abraham 24 years down the road.

There are heavy implications in this study. For one I’ll show that many SDA are in the same camp as the Judiazers of Paul’s time. As the Judizers required the sign of circumcision in order to be saved [not cut off] so too do many Adventists require the same of the Sabbath.

Hold on to your seat,

Robert

[Robert]

1] What happened 24 years later where circumcision became a requirement of God?

Let's start out with some facts:

Genesis 11:12 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you"....4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran.

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17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless [i.e., as I will show you later, blameless in his faith]... 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. ....13 My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

Okay, 99 minus 75 is what? Right, you math heads...24 years!

For 24 years no sign of faith was required of Abraham by God, but then something changed! Let's return to Paul:

"And he received [24 years later] the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised."

Note that circumcision, 24 years later, became a sign or seal of the righteous that Abraham already had by faith alone. This sign, although unusual, was a symbol of the righteousness by faith Abraham already had while uncircumcised.

Do we have this down? Because if not I can't continue. Is there a "yes" in CA land?

Rob

[Woody]

Yes Rob ... Go for it ... We're behind you.

[Robert]

Let’s go to Gen 15:4-6: God came to Abraham and said,

“A son coming from your own body will be your heir...Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them. Then he said to him, So shall your offspring be. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.”

Did Abraham really believe God? Sure....He took God at His word. Hence we was accounted righteous by faith, but when the rubber met the road...when reality came in, we will see that Abraham's faith was really immature. How so?

Abraham's wife (Sarah), an instrument of unbelief, came to Abraham and said,

“The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant….” [Gen 16:2]

Did you notice how Sarah blames God? That reminds me of a woman who cheated on her husband. She said that God didn't stop her from cheating and so it was God's fault. Weird!

Anyway, what does good old Abraham do with his wife's instructions? He complied! So we see that Abraham really didn’t believe God's promise concerning a child from Sarah. Instead of being counted righteous by faith he followed his wife’s program of works. Essentially Abraham, Sarah and Hagar tried to HELP God produce “the child of promise”! How righteous of them! Now look at the problems in the Middle East.

More later....

Rob

[Robert]

Gen 16:15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael.

Okay this is 11 years down the road from when Abraham was accounted righteous by faith alone.

Now God waits another 13 more years after Abraham tried to help Him produce the child of promise. At the end of 13 years (11 + 13 = 24) God comes to Abraham and demands circumcision! Why? Hold tight!

Then God says, [Genesis 17:15] “As for Sarai your wife…16 I will bless her and will surely give you a son by her. I will bless her so that she will be the mother of nations; kings of peoples will come from her.”

Verse 17: Abraham fell facedown; he laughed and said to himself, “Will a son be born to a man a hundred years old? Will Sarah bear a child at the age of ninety?” 18 And Abraham said to God, “If only Ishmael might live under your blessing [i.e., as the child of promise]!” 19 But God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac; and I will establish My covenant with him ….21 “…My covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you at this season next year.”

21:1 THEN the LORD took note of Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had promised. 2 So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac. 4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him.

How Old was Abraham? About 100 years old. And Sarah? 90 years old and well past the age of fertility. In fact Abraham probably needed Viagra.

My point? God promised...and God delivered! All Abraham and Sarah needed to do was believe. But, as we saw, they introduced a system of works, if you will.

So why circumcision? Why did God demand this weird symbol of faith? Do you know? It should be very apparent for those that aren't legalistic!

Rob

[B Humble]

Rob: You are quite right in many aspects. What many do not realize, is that the reason Paul uses Abraham as the example of "the righteousness of faith" is because:

1. Abraham was an uncircumcised Gentile when he was declared to received "the righteousness of faith".

2. It wasn't until 500 years later that the Sabbath was given as a commandment and that to "the children of Israel". And as such Abraham is the example of how both Jews and Gentiles would be saved "apart from the Law."

3. Since Abraham was not circumcised and not keeping the Sabbath, neither should the Gentiles be made to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised.

Regarding the circumcision of the flesh, it is clear, that after Abraham went to Hagar in an effort to make the promise come to pass through human effort, God made them a sign they would never forget. It was to become a sign that Abraham was esteemed righteous, WHILE he was uncircumcised, when he "believed God" and it was accounted to him as righteousness". The physical act of circumcision should have been the reminder to every Jew and physical child of Abraham, Jew and Ishmaelite, of the fulfillment of the righteousness of faith that would be found in Christ, not in works.

[Robert]

So why circumcision? Why did God demand this weird symbol of faith?

Now it's time for a simple biological question: How did Abraham conceive Ishmael??? More precisely what biological tool did Abraham use to HELP God produce the so-called child of promise??? That’s right, his penis.

Therefore the removal of the foreskin of the penis was representative or symbolic of having no confidence in sinful, human performance, but rather in the promises of God. [see Phil 3:3] It, although a strange symbol, was a sign of the righteousness that he already had by faith.

And everyone of Abraham's family knew this. So to refuse this sign would be refusing what the sign pointed to! In others words to refuse circumcision, as Abraham understood it, was a rejection of God's promises.

Turn to Gal 3:16

The promises [including the promised child] were spoken to Abraham and to his seed. The Scripture does not say “and to seeds,” meaning many people, but “and to your seed,” meaning one person, who is Christ. 17 What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God and thus do away with the promise. 18 For if the inheritance depends on the law, then it no longer depends on a promise; but God in his grace gave it to Abraham through a promise.

Circumcision wasn't a works trip as given to Abraham. Quite the opposite. Circumcision really pointed out that one shouldn't try to help God do anything. One's response is always faith alone.

God says that He saved you "in Christ"! Do you believe it? That's faith. To try and add your good works to Christ's Holy history is denial of your faith in God. That's why Paul says,

You are severed [cut off] from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace. [Gal 5:4]

So we find that Abraham was justified by faith alone, but because there was unbelief in his life (i.e., he tried to help God produce the child of promise) God gave him the sign of circumcision. Again, it was a sign to have no confidence in human achievement, but rather in the promises of God. To deny the sign was to deny this truth. The result? You are cut off from grace!

[Robert]

Regarding the circumcision of the flesh, it is clear, that after Abraham went to Hagar in an effort to make the promise come to pass through human effort, God made them a sign they would never forget. It was to become a sign that Abraham was esteemed righteous, WHILE he was uncircumcised, when he "believed God" and it was accounted to him as righteousness". The physical act of circumcision should have been the reminder to every Jew and physical child of Abraham, Jew and Ishmaelite, of the fulfillment of the righteousness of faith that would be found in Christ, not in works.

Excellent! Thank you.....

[Robert]

Since Abraham was not circumcised [for 24 years] and not keeping the Sabbath, neither should the Gentiles be made to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised.

And I'm not saying they should....

The point I've made so far is that circumcision came along as a sign of faith [24 years after Abraham believed]. What did this sign point to? To take God at His word! To believe in the promises of God. Don't try to help God out because that's a form of works - of unbelief.

[Robert]

1] What happened 24 years later where circumcision became a requirement of God?

[B Humble]

Pretty well said, my friend.

[Robert]

Okay, let's summarize:

Quote:

The demands of the Judaizers:

“Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved.”

God's covenant with Abraham 24 years later:

“This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. .... 14 “But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

Paul and Barnabas' rejection of the Judaizers demands:

10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of the disciples a yoke that neither we nor our fathers have been able to bear? 11 No! We believe it is through the grace of our Lord Jesus that we are saved, just as they are."

Why did Paul and Barnabas call the demands of the Judaizers "a yoke"? In fact there are other places where he says the same:

Gal 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. 2 Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision [to be saved], Christ will be of no benefit to you. 3 And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision [again, to be saved], that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. 4 You have been severed [cut off] from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Originally, as given to Abraham, what did circumcision symbolize? To have no confidence in human aid (works), but rather to take God at His promise.

Specifically, Abraham tried to help God produce the child of promise. It was a form of unbelief. God waited 24 years until it was medically and scientifically impossible for Sarah and Abraham to reproduce and then, and only then, He performed a miracle. But before He brought back to life Sarah and Abraham's reproductive abilities, He gave Abraham a sign called circumcision.

So we see that this sign was given for a specific reason for a specific problem; in this case unbelief in God's promise.

So time and place must always be considered when one says, "Thus saith the Lord." If not you wind up with the traditions of men, in this case the demands of the Judaizers. Keep this in mind because next I going to touch on the Sabbath.

[Robert]

So we see that this sign was given for a specific reason for a specific problem; in this case unbelief in God's promise.

So time and place must always be considered when one says, "Thus saith the Lord." If not you wind up with the traditions of men, in this case the demands of the Judaizers. Keep this in mind because next I going to touch on the Sabbath.

"Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people...."

Does the underlined sound familiar? Compare:

“But an uncircumcised male who is not circumcised in the flesh of his foreskin, that person shall be cut off from his people; he has broken My covenant.”

We already understand why God originally gave the sign or seal of circumcision to Abraham. It wasn't legalistic at all. In fact the sign was anti-human works! You couldn't brag about it...you couldn't say my circumcision saves me...because circumcision was a reminder, in the flesh, to take God at His word.

Now tell me, how was Abraham accounted righteous? By faith or works? Right, by faith alone! He was accounted righteous by faith. Circumcision was the seal or sign of that righteous that he already had by faith.

I remember when I became an Adventist. I was emphatically told that unless I kept the Sabbath I would be lost (cut off). I was also told that Sunday keepers who knew of the Sabbath, but didn't accept it, had the mark of the beast and that they were lost.

Well, I bought into it....I became very proud around other Christians. I looked down my nose at them....I saw them as 2nd class citizens. In fact I told more than one of them that unless they stopped keeping Sunday and started keeping the 4th commandment that they would be lost. I was essentially saying the same thing as the Judaizers!

“Unless you Sunday keepers keep the Sabbath, according to the the book of the law (the law of Moses), you cannot be saved.”

That's just what many traditional Adventist teach! And don't tell me it ain't so because I know it for a fact....

Now, from my study, do I think that the 7th day is the Sabbath and not Sunday. Yes.

Why do most Christians go to church on Sunday? I'll tell you why, it's not because they think it's the Sabbath (a few do), but rather because they are celebrating the Lord's resurrection. Is there anything wrong with that? No!

More later....

[Robert]

Why do most Christians go to church on Sunday? I'll tell you why, it's not because they think it's the Sabbath (a few do), but rather because they are celebrating the Lord's resurrection.

At the same time I know of many, many Sabbath keepers who keep the 7th day in obedience to the law. They keep it as a requirement. Ask them why they "rest" and all they can tell you is "God said so"!

Well, didn't God say about the same thing to Abraham? Yes, taken out of context! And that's why the Judaizers demanded circumcision. Many Adventist do the same with the Sabbath!

More later

Rob

[Robert]

Now I believe the Sabbath will be significant in the future just like circumcision became significant to Abraham 24 years after he was justified by faith alone. But to push the Sabbath, without understanding what it symbolizes, is to do the same thing that the Judaizers did to circumcision.

Now Humble, you might disagree that the Sabbath will even be an issue in future and that's fine because we don't all see eye to eye, but I'm sure I'll get attacked by some Adventists because of my views.

Anyway, let me quote Sequeira on this because I believe he has hit the nail square on the head:

When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11].

When Matt. 24:14 will finally become a reality, the human race will be polarized into only two groups — believers and unbelievers. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God just as circumcision was to Abraham [Rom. 4:11].

Now, the Sabbath is not yet the seal of God....There’s still confusion. There are today many Sunday-keeping Christians who are resting in Christ. And there are Sabbath-keeping people who are resting in their works, too. So there is still confusion today. But when the Three Angels’ Message is clearly presented, and linked with these two days, then folks, then only will these two days represent two systems. So, firstly, please don’t ever accuse the Sunday-keeping people today of the mark of the beast. Secondly, please remember that those days simply represent a truth. It’s the truth that is at issue.

[John317]

Let's cut the chase and go right to the point. Both the Sabbath and Circumcision are called signs:

Sabbath:

Exodus 31:14 Observe the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Anyone who desecrates it must be put to death; whoever does any work on that day must be cut off from his people....17 It [the Sabbath] will be a sign between me and the Israelites forever, for in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, and on the seventh day he abstained from work and rested.

The same significance of the Sabbath at that time, being a sign of the special relationship between God and Israel, applies today as a sign of the special relationship between God and modern, spiritual Israel. We both have the same God-- the Creator and Redeemer. Hebrews 4: 9 shows that the weekly Sabbath of the moral law is not only not done away with under the New Covenant but that it takes on added significance.

Quote:

Both the Sabbath and Circumcision are called signs. Signs (or symbols) always point to a truth. The truth is what is important, so we must not get caught up in only the sign.

In any case both the Sabbath and Circumcision are signs. Failure for the Jews to acknowledge these signs led to death. As already stated, to be "cut off" means to die. I'm sure, after all, you have heard the Biblical expression "cut off from the land of the living"?

So in both cases obedience was required. Why then were the Judaizers wrong in stating the following?

Acts 15:1 Some men [believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees - see verse 5] came down from Judea to Antioch and were teaching the brothers: “Unless you are circumcised, according to the custom taught by Moses, you cannot be saved [i.e., you'll be cut off].”

Yes, the Judaizers were wrong to state what they did in Acts 15: 1. Plainly so.

Circumcision is not any part of the New Covenant.

QUESTION:

What is the New Covenant?

Is the 7th day Sabbath a part of the New Covenant?

[John317]

....Clearly Abraham stood justified by faith alone long before he was circumcised! So how many years did Abraham remain uncircumcised?

When Abraham departed from Haran he was 75 years old. How old was he when he was circumcised? 99 years old! So for 24 years Abraham remained justified by faith alone. No circumcision was required of him. Let's continue:

11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised.

My point? For 24 years Abraham was considered or accounted righteous by faith. All those years Abraham was uncircumcised.

1] What happened 24 years later where circumcision became a requirement of God?

2] Also, again, why were the Judaizers wrong in mandating obedience to this sign?...

Good post here, Robert.

They were wrong because the circumcision is a sign of faith and not a way of being put right with God. It was rather a sign that one was already in right relationship with God. Circumcision was a sign that one had accepted the covenant, but it was never intended as a way of earning justification or salvation, although this is the way many Jews viewed it.

[Robert]

The same significance of the Sabbath ... applies today as a sign....

If the seal of God is currently the Sabbath, then Sunday-keepers have the mark of the beast. You can't have one without the other.

The same is true with Babylon. Babylon is not yet fallen. She hasn't apostatized from the everlasting gospel because she hasn't heard it.

Likewise, the Sabbath as the seal of God makes no sense right now. It's future. What's important is the restoration of the gospel. Even Ellen White confirms this:

One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The same significance of the Sabbath ... applies today as a sign....

If the seal of God is currently the Sabbath, then Sunday-keepers have the mark of the beast. You can't have one without the other.

The same is true with Babylon. Babylon is not yet fallen. She hasn't apostatized from the everlasting gospel because she hasn't heard it.

Likewise, the Sabbath as the seal of God makes no sense right now. It's future. What's important is the restoration of the gospel. Even Ellen White confirms this:

One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness.

Let's continue the discussion about this very question.

I see you are using quotes again of Ellen White. Since you are using her, why not go ahead and study what she says about the subject under discussion?

[Robert]

Circumcision is not any part of the New Covenant.

The Judaizers would have argued with you:

Genesis 17:7 7 “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. ....9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised.

I'll play the devil's advocate:

"John, you are a spiritual Jew, you must be circumcised because God told Abraham that this was "an everlasting covenant"! IF you refuse, well, you'll be cut off...no heaven for you!"

Wow, I'd make a good Judaizer.

Okay John, your answer?

Rob

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

If the seal of God is currently the Sabbath' date=' then Sunday-keepers have the mark of the beast. You can't have one without the other.

The same is true with Babylon. Babylon is not yet fallen. She hasn't apostatized from the everlasting gospel because she hasn't heard it.

Likewise, the Sabbath as the seal of God makes no sense right now. It's future. What's important is the restoration of the gospel. Even Ellen White confirms this:

One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness.

[/quote']

Let's continue the discussion about this very question.

I see you are using quotes again of Ellen White. Since you are using her, why not go ahead and study what she says about the subject under discussion?

Nope...she had limited light. She only had a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. She saw futuristic things, but she couldn't always define them.

So let's use the Bible for the measuring stick of truth, okay? In fact it was Ellen that said, "The Bible and the Bible only!"

Rob

[John317]

One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness.

Since you quote what Ellen White says here, it would only be fair to find out what the Spirit of prophecy says about Christ our righteousness.

What does she mean? What is she talking about?