Sabbath & Circumcision - signs of what?

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

For SDA, the measuring stick is first the Bible and second the Spirit of prophecy.

To make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth is pure heresy. She herself states "the Bible and the Bible only"!

That means, then, that Jack Sequeira belongs to a heretical sect. Because, as you know, it is the official teachings of the SDA church that Ellen White's writings are an authoritative source of truth. If you think that is wrong, it is because you do not understand Ellen White's teachings. She is to be judged by the Bible, but once you understand that she is a prophet of God, her writings also become authoritative. We certainly are not reading her just for the pleasure of it. Her writings, which you yourself often quote, have real significance. As I've said before, I wouldn't quote them to you or bring them up if you didn't already quote them (or misquote).

You quote her when you can use her and you have no trouble with Jack Sequeira who quotes her thousands of times. You quote her about babies flying around because that is an important belief of yours, but if you are going to accept that belief, it is only consistent to accept what she says on other subjects.

It is obvious that you only have trouble with her when she says things that disagree with your favorite ideas.

What she said does not contradict what she said in 1 SM 15-45. Have you read it? She says plainly that the Lord Jesus Christ gave her messages for the church and some for the world.

[Robert]

That means, then, that Jack Sequeira belongs to a heretical sect.

you belong to that group know as Historic, Traditional Adventism. Jack is very much opposed to this group and in no way belongs to its membership.

Rob

[John317]

Robert, if you call people on the thread enemies of the gospel again, you will be banned. Stop doing it.

I do not allow people to call you an enemy of the gospel nor do I call you names or make personal attacks on you. Please respect the threads enough not to do that or you will be banned because you have been told to stop this many times already.

[BobRyan]

To make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth is pure heresy. She herself states "the Bible and the Bible only"!

I would agree with that.

Here is a thread started to discuss the gift of prophecy -

http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post194869

So we can get this thread back to the subject of Romans 2 and the spiritual element of circumcision that we find there (last 4 verses of chapter) -- as done by the Holy Spirit.

in Christ,

Bob

[Woody]

To make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth is pure heresy. She herself states "the Bible and the Bible only"!

I would have to agree with this also.

[Robert]

Robert, if you call people on the thread enemies of the gospel again, you will be banned. Stop doing it.

You know, if Paul were here he would be banned too! I mean he called the self-righteous of his day "dogs" (see Phil chapter 3)

As to banning...Well, do as you must....Then there will be very few challenging your traditional, historic Adventism. That would be lovely for you.

Rob

[Woody]

I very much appreciate your knowledge and insights Rob. We need to be challenged and you challenge me and my thinking. I am glad that you are here.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

I don't at all mind being called "cultish" if it is because I believe Ellen White was a true prophet and I accept what she said as authoritative.

You have no trouble quoting her when you like what she says, but the minute someone quotes something you don't like, then suddenly you talk about "spiritual fornication" and "cultism."

You are a cult member because you make Ellen G. White the measuring stick of truth. This is heresy!

Ahem. You not only lift quotations out of their context, you also misquote or twist? them?

NO ONE has made EGW THE measuring stick of truth!!!!!!!!!!! It has already been plainly and clearly stated that THE BIBLE IS THE STANDARD and final arbiter of truth and doctrine.

Gerry

[BobRyan]

I have to agree that the "Ellen White is authorotative" statement is IN the context of ALL doctrines proven "sola scriptura".

But I have seen a number of non-SDAs who are totally unfamiliar with the relationship of non-canonical prophets to scripture -- and they get all loused up on that point AS IF "you have to reject the authorotative value of all non-canonical prophets to hold to a doctrine sola-scriptura" (hint: either or fallacy).

But the truth is that non-canonical prophets ARE authorotative when it is shown that they are TRUE prophets -- as in the case of Ellen White. In those cases we STILL don't use their statements to "prove or TEST doctrine" but we DO use them as having authority as coming from a true prophet - as being the messages of God given to His people.

A "new" idea to a non-SDA for sure -- but SDAs "should" be familiar with it.

Having said that - I would still be more prone to sticking to a sola-scriptura basis for arguing a bible concept such as "circumcision" and the Romans 2 meaning we see Paul giving it. (He said as though to bring the subject of the thread back into focus)

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Robert, if you call people on the thread enemies of the gospel again, you will be banned. Stop doing it.

You know, if Paul were here he would be banned too! I mean he called the self-righteous of his day "dogs" (see Phil chapter 3)

As to banning...Well, do as you must....Then there will be very few challenging your traditional, historic Adventism. That would be lovely for you.

Rob

We don't want to make the Forum a place where people feel it is OK to call each other names and make personal attacks just because they have disagreements.

Think what it would mean if everyone felt they had a right to do that. What kind of place would this be?

Remember that there are all kinds of opinions and beliefs here, and everyone has a right to believe what they choose and still be treated respectfully.

[John317]

All true, except that we're dealing here with people who are familiar with SDA doctrines and who quote Ellen White extensively.

For me personally, the only time I bring up Ellen White is if the other person quotes her or says that he believes in her.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

(Here's the AFTER that you [Robert] left out.) To be redeemed means to cease from sin.

.

Originally Posted By: John

I can't believe you did that, Rob. I don't want to believe it. Tell me it ain't so!

Again, please remember that I don't consider her a measuring stick of truth, but I didn't realize that she contradicted herself. This quote was saved many years ago...I might have realized then. But anyway, let's see if I can undo the contradictions:

EGW: "To be redeemed means to cease from sin."

Well, that's not the primary reason. "Christ redeemed us from the law" because "cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things written in the book of the law to do them."

Here is the exact quote of what Paul said:

Quote:

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us - for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who is hanged on a tree..." Gal 3:13 ESV

It is not the law that He does away with. It is from the CURSE of the law that Christ redeems us from.

Furthermore, Christ came for what reason?

Quote:

The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil 1 Jn 3:8!!!

That includes the works of the devil in the believer's life!!! He did not die so as to allow the believer to continue in sin!!!

Quote:

If I have been redeemed from sin in my experience, then I have a problem. I haven't ceased from sin. Yes, I've grown, but I haven't stopped sinning. I still make missteps...I still get sucker punched by the flesh...and I am still not measuring up to the love as seen in the life of Christ. Hence, I am a partial (if you will) law keeper (not that my focus is on the law). So I have no idea what EGW is getting at here.

I agree. You do have a problem. EGW is saying exactly what John (THE Apostle) has been saying:

Quote:

No one who abides in Him keeps on sinning. ESV

No one who abides in Him [who lives and remains in communion with and in obedience to Him - deliberately, knowingly, and habitually] commits (practices) sin. Amp]

Quote:

"EGW: Jesus teaches me that the law is a yoke of bondage."

Paul clearly teaches that to be under the jurisdiction of the law is to be under bondage (obey and live, disobey and die). Ellen is just ignorant if she disagrees with this. Paul is the NT theologian. His work can be used as a measuring stick of truth. (Robert)

If your interpretation of what Paul is teaching is correct, then he is contradicting what the psalmist and the Apostle James are saying[that would be unthinkable!!!] i.e.

Quote:

And I will walk at liberty, for I seek Your precepts. Ps 119:45 NKJ

But the one who looks into the perfect law, the law of liberty, and perseveres being no hearer who forgets but a doer who acts, he will be blessed in his doing. Jam 1:25 ESV

So speak and so act as those who are to be judged under the law of liberty. Jam 2:12 ESV

Obedient people walk the streets in liberty. Lawbreakers go to jail!!! They are the ones in bondage!!!

Quote:

"EGW: Those who say that we must keep the law have fallen from grace."

"Must keep the law"? Again, keeping the law is keeping a set of rules under the jurisdiction of the law. Paul clearly teaches that no one will be saved (justified) by the law. And yes, for those who teach this he clearly states such are fallen from grace (see Gal 5:4)(Robert)

We are in complete agreement that keeping the law IN ORDER TO ESTABLISH a right standing with God will never do. We are saved solely by grace through faith. But what kind of faith is it that Paul is talking about? According to Paul, the purpose of grace is not allow us to continue living in sin. On the contrary:

Quote:

Through him and for his name's sake, we received grace and apostleship to call people from among all the Gentiles to the obedience that comes from faith. Ro 1:5 NIV, cf Ro 16:26.

...obedience that springs from faith. Weymouth

...obedience inspired by faith. Williams

...to believe and obey. NCV

...to believe and obey. NLT

For not the hearers of the law are just in the sight of God, but the doers of the law will be justified. Ro 2:13

Gerry

[BobRyan]

One more point along those same lines

In Col 2 it is the "certificate of DEBT" (NASB) that is nailed to the cross -- not the Law of God.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

Robert, if you call people on the thread enemies of the gospel again, you will be banned. Stop doing it.

You know, if Paul were here he would be banned too! I mean he called the self-righteous of his day "dogs" (see Phil chapter 3)

As to banning...Well, do as you must....Then there will be very few challenging your traditional, historic Adventism. That would be lovely for you.

Rob

Paul I know. I know he was carried along by the Holy Spirit when he was writing. Carried along by the Holy Spirit you are not!!!

You can question and challenge all you want; the more truth is hammered/rubbed, the more it shines. But resorting to assassination of character when one's arguments are weak or shredded is childish.

Gerry

[olger]

Amen, Dr. C.

oG

[Gerr]

I have to agree that the "Ellen White is authorotative" statement is IN the context of ALL doctrines proven "sola scriptura".

But I have seen a number of non-SDAs who are totally unfamiliar with the relationship of non-canonical prophets to scripture -- and they get all loused up on that point AS IF "you have to reject the authorotative value of all non-canonical prophets to hold to a doctrine sola-scriptura" (hint: either or fallacy).

But the truth is that non-canonical prophets ARE authorotative when it is shown that they are TRUE prophets -- as in the case of Ellen White. In those cases we STILL don't use their statements to "prove or TEST doctrine" but we DO use them as having authority as coming from a true prophet - as being the messages of God given to His people.

A "new" idea to a non-SDA for sure -- but SDAs "should" be familiar with it.

Having said that - I would still be more prone to sticking to a sola-scriptura basis for arguing a bible concept such as "circumcision" and the Romans 2 meaning we see Paul giving it. (He said as though to bring the subject of the thread back into focus)

in Christ,

Bob

Amen! If we were to discover writings from the prophets Elijah, Elishah, Gad, Nathan, or Micaiah, we would no doubt consider them authoritative, but would still test and subject everything they said to the authority of the canon of Scripture.

Gerry

[Woody]

Quote:

"But resorting to assassination of character when one's arguments are weak or shredded is childish."

Like the following:

Quote:

"Carried along by the Holy Spirit you are not!!!"

What about you Gerry. Perhaps looking in the mirror would be benefical.

Surely ... we as Christians ... can act like Christians towards others instead of attacking the beliefs and spirituality of others. Questioning the spiritual condition of another is character assassination ... just as you have indicated.

Love Won Another ... People.

[Gerr]

Quote:

"But resorting to assassination of character when one's arguments are weak or shredded is childish."

Like the following:

Quote:

"Carried along by the Holy Spirit you are not!!!"

What about you. Perhaps looking in the mirror would be benefical.

Surely ... we as Christians ... can act like Christians towards others instead of attacking the beliefs of others. Questioning the spiritual condition of another is character assassination ... just as you have indicated.

Love Won Another People.

Do you believe Robert is "carried along by the Holy Spirit?"

Gerry

[Woody]

I can only speak for myself. And the Holy Spirit definately leads and directs in my life. If he does in yours ... I will not say. That is something that you have to come to grips with.

[John317]

Walking or living in the Spirit as believers is not the same thing as "being carried along by the Spirit" in what one writes or says. The expression comes from 2 Peter 1: 21 and refers to how the apostles and prophets spoke and wrote.

[Woody]

No matter how you slice it John ... telling someone they don't measure up is a personal attack. And like you say ... no one appreciates being treated like this.

Quote:

"Carried along by the Holy Spirit you are not!!!"

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[John317]

Telling someone they don't "measure up" is not a personal attack.

Neither is telling someone that they are not "carried along by the Spirit." Being "carried along by the Spirit" is a Biblical expression conveying how the prophets and apostles wrote and spoke.

[Woody]

Still an attack.

(Granted ... given by a friend of yours ... but never the less ... an attack.)

[BobRyan]

Amen! If we were to discover writings from the prophets Elijah, Elishah, Gad, Nathan, or Micaiah, we would no doubt consider them authoritative, but would still test and subject everything they said to the authority of the canon of Scripture.