Robert Posted September 28, 2008 Author Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert One interest will prevail, one subject will swallow up every other,--Christ our righteousness. Since you quote what Ellen White says here, it would only be fair to find out what the Spirit of prophecy says about Christ our righteousness. What does she mean? What is she talking about? Sorry I quoted her....Never mind. Let's stay to the subject: Circumcision and the Sabbath as seals.... Thanks, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 What I am going to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt is that these signs, the Sabbath and circumcision, are inadvertently connected. In both cases I will show that believers are accounted righteous by faith alone in the doing of Christ and that their Sabbath keeping does not make them righteous. But to understand this truth you must understand why circumcision was required of Abraham 24 years down the road. There are heavy implications in this study. For one I’ll show that many SDA are in the same camp as the Judiazers of Paul’s time. As the Judizers required the sign of circumcision in order to be saved [not cut off] so too do many Adventists require the same of the Sabbath. You are building up a straw man, Rob. The SDA church doesn't believe that Sabbath keeping makes anyone righteous. (There may be some individual members who have this misunderstanding-- and perhaps you yourself had such a misunderstanding-- but that is a misunderstanding.) Can you find any statement by the church or by the Spirit of prophecy that teaches we are made righteous by Sabbath keeping? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 [I see you are using quotes again of Ellen White. Since you are using her, why not go ahead and study what she says about the subject under discussion? Nope...she had limited light. She only had a glimmer of the light that was yet to come. She saw futuristic things, but she couldn't always define them. So let's use the Bible for the measuring stick of truth, okay? In fact it was Ellen that said, "The Bible and the Bible only!" Yes, I understand you: she alone of all the prophets of God had limited light. And we shouldn't quote her unless she agrees with us. And we only want to read very selected sentences that she wrote. We don't want to read everything she said on a subject if it would show that our understanding is wrong. She did say "the Bible and the Bible only," but your use of that statement would mean that Jack Sequeira is wrong to quote her as much as he does. And it is also out of context because she obviously did not mean we should ignore what she wrote. See the Introduction to GC. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 ROBERT-- What happened 24 years later where circumcision became a requirement of God? Let's start out with some facts: Genesis 11:12 The LORD had said to Abram, “Leave your country, your people and your father’s household and go to the land I will show you. 2 I will make you into a great nation and I will bless you"....4 So Abram left, as the LORD had told him; and Lot went with him. Abram was seventy-five years old when he set out from Haran. Notice that Abraham obeyed God's command and got up and went. That SHOWED Abraham's faith. He had true faith. But what if Abraham had continued to sit there and say, "I'm saved. I believe. I believe"? Would his claim to believe be worth anything? Quote: 17:1 When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, “I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless [i.e., as I will show you later, blameless in his faith]... 10 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. ....13 My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” Okay, 99 minus 75 is what? Right, you math heads...24 years! For 24 years no sign of faith was required of Abraham by God, but then something changed! Let's return to Paul: "And he received [24 years later] the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised." Note that circumcision, 24 years later, became a sign or seal of the righteous that Abraham already had by faith alone. This sign, although unusual, was a symbol of the righteousness by faith Abraham already had while uncircumcised..... Sounds like familiar Jack Sequeira vintage, Rob. But I can agree with Jack so far. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Let’s go to Gen 15:4-6: God came to Abraham and said, “A son coming from your own body will be your heir...Look up at the heavens and count the stars—if indeed you can count them. Then he said to him, So shall your offspring be. Abram believed the LORD, and he credited it to him as righteousness.” Did Abraham really believe God? Sure....He took God at His word. Hence we was accounted righteous by faith, but when the rubber met the road...when reality came in, we will see that Abraham's faith was really immature. How so? Abraham's wife (Sarah), an instrument of unbelief, came to Abraham and said, “The LORD has kept me from having children. Go, sleep with my maidservant….” [Gen 16:2] Did you notice how Sarah blames God? That reminds me of a woman who cheated on her husband. She said that God didn't stop her from cheating and so it was God's fault. Weird! Anyway, what does good old Abraham do with his wife's instructions? He complied! So we see that Abraham really didn’t believe God's promise concerning a child from Sarah. Instead of being counted righteous by faith he followed his wife’s program of works. Essentially Abraham, Sarah and Hagar tried to HELP God produce “the child of promise”! How righteous of them! Now look at the problems in the Middle East. Very good post, Rob. I like that. Thanks to Jack and you!! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 28, 2008 Author Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Circumcision is not any part of the New Covenant. The Judaizers would have argued with you: Genesis 17:7 7 “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. ....9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. I'll play the devil's advocate: "John, you are a spiritual Jew, you must be circumcised because God told Abraham that this was "an everlasting covenant"! IF you refuse, well, you'll be cut off...no heaven for you!" Wow, I'd make a good Judaizer. Okay John, your answer? Rob John, you missed this one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 28, 2008 Author Share Posted September 28, 2008 The SDA church doesn't believe that Sabbath keeping makes anyone righteous. I didn't state this, John. Here's what I said: "As the Judizers required the sign of circumcision in order to be saved [not cut off] so too do many Adventists require the same of the Sabbath." Did you see that phrase, "to be saved"? John, if Humble doesn't keep the Sabbath (even if he views some of your arguments as good) will he be saved? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 28, 2008 Author Share Posted September 28, 2008 Sounds like familiar Jack Sequeira vintage, Rob. But I can agree with Jack so far. Well, generally speaking, if I quote Jack I place his initials in brackets, like this: [JS] So this is 100% my study....No Jack at all.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 28, 2008 Author Share Posted September 28, 2008 Very good post, Rob. I like that. Thanks to Jack and you!! Again, just me....You are getting paranoid! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 The SDA church doesn't believe that Sabbath keeping makes anyone righteous. I didn't state this, John. Here's what I said: "As the Judizers required the sign of circumcision in order to be saved [not cut off] so too do many Adventists require the same of the Sabbath." Did you see that phrase, "to be saved"? Seventh-day Adventists do not teach that we are saved by Sabbath keeping. If you ever thought this, you were sadly mistaken. You know yourself that Seventh-day Adventists (and specifically the Spirit of prophecy) teach that there will be many saved who kept Sunday and knew nothing about the Sabbath. Quote: John, if Humble doesn't keep the Sabbath (even if he views some of your arguments as good) will he be saved? Rob We've discussed that several times on the thread about God's changing the law. "Will he be saved" or "may he be saved"? You said: Quote: In both cases I will show that believers are accounted righteous by faith alone in the doing of Christ and that their Sabbath keeping does not make them righteous. But to understand this truth you must understand why circumcision was required of Abraham 24 years down the road. There are heavy implications in this study. For one I’ll show that many SDA are in the same camp as the Judiazers of Paul’s time. As the Judizers required the sign of circumcision in order to be saved [not cut off] so too do many Adventists require the same of the Sabbath. Seventh-day Adventists do not require Sabbath keeping for salvation any more than they require obedience to the other parts of the law of God. Jack Sequeira also teaches that the Ten Commandments are the standard of the Christian life. This does not mean that we earn salvation or justification by obeying any of the commandments. But it does mean that if we have true faith, we will obey God's will by the power of the Holy Spirit. If the Holy Spirit convicts the believer that God wants him to do something, he will be willing to do it, just as Abraham's faith caused him to do obey God's command to leave Haran, etc. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Very good post, Rob. I like that. Thanks to Jack and you!! Again, just me....You are getting paranoid! Naw-- I read him a lot, Rob, and I recognize his language and style. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Since you quote what Ellen White says here, it would only be fair to find out what the Spirit of prophecy says about Christ our righteousness. What does she mean? What is she talking about? [/quote'] Sorry I quoted her....Never mind. Let's stay to the subject: Circumcision and the Sabbath as seals.... Thanks, Rob Does the righteousness of Christ include both imputed AND imparted righteousness? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Why do most Christians go to church on Sunday? I'll tell you why, it's not because they think it's the Sabbath (a few do), but rather because they are celebrating the Lord's resurrection. At the same time I know of many, many Sabbath keepers who keep the 7th day in obedience to the law. They keep it as a requirement. Ask them why they "rest" and all they can tell you is "God said so"! Well, didn't God say about the same thing to Abraham? Yes, taken out of context! And that's why the Judaizers demanded circumcision. Many Adventist do the same with the Sabbath!.... Obedience to God merely because of His word is a good place to begin and it is OK to do things because God said to do them. Take Eve and Adam, for example. It would have been better if they had obeyed God's naked command merely because "God said so." Agree? However, it is also true that God wants us to go on from there and grow up spiritually. There are many good reasons for keeping the Sabbath, but the basic reason is that God has commanded, or revealed His will in regard to, it. You would not keep the Sabbath (or acknowledge or celebrate the Sabbath) if God had never revealed to us that He wants people to do it. The Sabbath is known only by God's revelation. It is not known by anything in nature or in reason. In that sense it is like the test that came to Eve. She didn't know it except by the word of God. And she chose to ignore God's command and go by her own human reasoning and the voice of Satan instead. That was the cause of all this sin, suffering and death. She chose to eat from one tree in the garden that had thousands of trees. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 ....John, you missed this one? No, I didn't. I'll get around to it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 28, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 28, 2008 Gen 16:15 So Hagar bore Abram a son, and Abram gave the name Ishmael to the son she had borne. 16 Abram was eighty-six years old when Hagar bore him Ishmael. Okay this is 11 years down the road from when Abraham was accounted righteous by faith alone..... .............21:1 THEN the LORD took note of Sarah as He had said, and the LORD did for Sarah as He had promised. 2 So Sarah conceived and bore a son to Abraham in his old age, at the appointed time of which God had spoken to him. 3 And Abraham called the name of his son who was born to him, whom Sarah bore to him, Isaac. 4 Then Abraham circumcised his son Isaac when he was eight days old, as God had commanded him. How Old was Abraham? About 100 years old. And Sarah? 90 years old and well past the age of fertility. In fact Abraham probably needed Viagra. My point? God promised...and God delivered! All Abraham and Sarah needed to do was believe. But, as we saw, they introduced a system of works, if you will. So why circumcision? Why did God demand this weird symbol of faith? Do you know? It should be very apparent for those that aren't legalistic! Another good post, Rob. You are getting this from Jack Sequeira, who in turn got it from both the Bible and from A. T. Jones' books, especially A Consecrated Way To Perfection and some of his other writings. It's very Biblical and sound. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 29, 2008 Now I believe the Sabbath will be significant in the future just like circumcision became significant to Abraham 24 years after he was justified by faith alone. But to push the Sabbath, without understanding what it symbolizes, is to do the same thing that the Judaizers did to circumcision. Now Humble, you might disagree that the Sabbath will even be an issue in future and that's fine because we don't all see eye to eye, but I'm sure I'll get attacked by some Adventists because of my views. The difference is, Rob, I don't attack you personally or call you names or anything of that sort. I don't agree with some of your theology, but that is a separate matter. In the same way, I don't hold it against Mr. Humble for finding fault with my theology or ideas. That is fine. But there is a right way of doing that on the Forum, and there is a wrong way. The wrong way is to make it a personal attack instead of keeping it on the topic and argue about ideas and concepts and evidence. I know people have a hard time doing that, but it has to be done, or the Forum can be reduced to an "shouting, name-calling" match between two sides who are disrespecting each other. That wouldn't be good for anyone. Visitors certainly don't want to see that. Quote: Anyway, let me quote Sequeira on this because I believe he has hit the nail square on the head: When this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations [Matthew 24:14]; it will polarize or divide the human race into only two camps — believers and unbelievers [1 John 5:19], those who are fully resting in Christ and those who have ultimately rejected Christ. All who come under the banner of Christ will in the end-time worship the Lord of the Sabbath and their Sabbath keeping will be the outward sign or seal of the righteousness they have already received by faith, just as circumcision was to Abraham “a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised” [Romans 4:11]. When Matt. 24:14 will finally become a reality, the human race will be polarized into only two groups — believers and unbelievers. At that time, the Sabbath will become the seal of God just as circumcision was to Abraham [Rom. 4:11]. Now, the Sabbath is not yet the seal of God....There’s still confusion. There are today many Sunday-keeping Christians who are resting in Christ. And there are Sabbath-keeping people who are resting in their works, too. So there is still confusion today. But when the Three Angels’ Message is clearly presented, and linked with these two days, then folks, then only will these two days represent two systems. So, firstly, please don’t ever accuse the Sunday-keeping people today of the mark of the beast. Secondly, please remember that those days simply represent a truth. It’s the truth that is at issue... 1) It's certainly true that no one has yet received the mark of the beast, but then I don't know of any knowledgeable (or even unknowledgeable) Adventist who teaches otherwise. Do you (or rather Jack S.) know any any Adventist writer or teacher or preacher or theologian or leader who has ever said Sunday-keeper today have the mark of the beast? 2) Of course there is still confusion today about the Sabbath-Sunday issue. That is why it is important to present the Bible evidence about it, so that when the issue is brought to the front, people will have know what the Bible teaches about it. It is impossible for people to be straight on the subject of the Sabbath if people who know about it keep quiet or say almost nothing about it. 3) It's very important to realize that the eternal gospel is being proclaimed now, and it includes the Sabbath message. See Rev. 14. It is calling people back to the full truth about God and about His plan of salvation that has been suppressed and hidden by the little horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. That includes the gospel of salvation but it also has to do with whether man was given the power to change the Law of God. Almost the entire world is unaware of this issue, but millions are being made aware of it NOW. This issue will become even more clear in the near future. We are living today near the end, just before Christ returns for His church in glory. It could have happened over a hundred years ago. God is not waiting for a certain time when He will come. There is no more time prophecies we are waiting to be fulfilled. We are only waiting for the bride of Christ to make herself ready. What does that mean? It means putting on the righteousness of Christ, both the imputed and the imparted righteousness of Christ. This is related to the the church's teaching of the Investigative Judgment. 4) It is a major mistake to think that the proclamation of the Sabbath and of all the gospel and the truths of God's word are irrelevant until some future time. Now is the time for us as a people to be practicing these wonderful truths and teaching them to our neighbors and everyone with whom we come in contact. Now is the time for us to be allowing Christ to sanctify us and made ready to be sealed and to stand through the period described in Rev. 14 through 18. It is Satan who wants us to delay, delay, delay. Why? Because he knows that as long as he can delay the church's preparation for the Second Coming, it affords him more time and opportunity to lead people into being lost. Jesus will come soon, but the real question is will we be ready? We won't be if we keep putting off getting prepared. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: B Humble Since Abraham was not circumcised [for 24 years] and not keeping the Sabbath, neither should the Gentiles be made to keep the Sabbath or be circumcised. And I'm not saying they should.... The point I've made so far is that circumcision came along as a sign of faith [24 years after Abraham believed]. What did this sign point to? To take God at His word! To believe in the promises of God. Don't try to help God out because that's a form of works - of unbelief. This is a misunderstanding. Adventists have never taught that anyone, Gentile or Jew, should be "made" to keep the Sabbath. Teaching that God's will is for all mankind to have an intelligent knowledge of Him and of His Sabbath is totally different from "making" people keep the Sabbath. That is precisely why we do not advocate laws regarding the Sabbath. I would rather die than make a law forcing anyone to keep the Sabbath. The only reason for obeying the Sabbath is due to faith in Christ and a desire to please and honor Him. Hopefully it is the same reason we would want to obey the rest of the commandments of Christ. However, it needs to be said here that a person must be made aware of the Sabbath before he can keep it at all. A person who thinks the Sabbath is Sunday is not going to be able to keep the 7th day Sabbath. What if your wife said she was going to meet you on Tuesday for a celebration of your wedding anniversary but you didn't come until Wednesday? Or what would she think if you said you don't think the day matters-- any day will do? God made only one day holy and blessed. That is the Sabbath. Can any one find where God made the first day of the week holy or blessed? No. As a matter of fact, the Bible says only one day is blessed and made holy by God, and the rest of the week-- 6 days-- are for labor. This proves beyond a shadow of doubt that the first day of the week-- by God's own word-- is nothing but a common, ordinary working day. If this is not true, I'd like to see the Bible evidence of it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 But it does mean that if we have true faith, we will obey God's will .... That's a cop out! What he means, Humble, is if your faith is real you will obey the Sabbath commandment as found in Exodus. Well, John, the Holy Spirit writes the principle of the last 6 commandments in the believer's heart. If He wrote the Sabbath then all Sunday-keepers would be Sabbath Keepers. Apparently He isn't convicting these Christians to do this. Maybe you are taking the place of the HS in this matter? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert Again, just me....You are getting paranoid! [/quote'] Naw-- I read him a lot, Rob, and I recognize his language and style. So, I'm now a liar? If these are his words you should be able to find them word for word and prove me a liar. IF not, then you can apologize. John, you are trying to side-track that which you are uncomfortable with....Stay to the subject. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted September 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted September 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 But it does mean that if we have true faith, we will obey God's will .... That's a cop out! What he means, Humble, is if your faith is real you will obey the Sabbath commandment as found in Exodus. Well, John, the Holy Spirit writes the principle of the last 6 commandments in the believer's heart. If He wrote the Sabbath then all Sunday-keepers would be Sabbath Keepers. Apparently He isn't convicting these Christians to do this. Maybe you are taking the place of the HS in this matter? Rob You've been repeating Jack Sequeira a long time, but that is all it is, repeating by rote what some mere man said. The Bible says no such thing. If you have true faith, which of the commandments would you disobey intentionally, Rob? Don't blame the Holy Spirit for people not obeying God. They have been doing that ever since the beginning. Christians can resist the Holy Spirit, obviously. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert That's a cop out! What he means, Humble, is if your faith is real you will obey the Sabbath commandment as found in Exodus. Well, John, the Holy Spirit writes the principle of the last 6 commandments in the believer's heart. If He wrote the Sabbath then all Sunday-keepers would be Sabbath Keepers. Apparently He isn't convicting these Christians to do this. Maybe you are taking the place of the HS in this matter? Rob[/quote'] You've been repeating Jack Sequeira a long time, but that is all it is, repeating by rote what some mere man said. The Bible says no such thing. If you have true faith, which of the commandments would you disobey intentionally, Rob? The entire law is summed up in a single command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” [Gal 5:14] "So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets."[Matt 7:12] He who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; love therefore is the fulfillment of the law. [Romans 13:8-10] Bear one another’s burdens, and thus fulfill the law of Christ. [Gal 6:2] Furthermore, when Paul writes about folks who practice known sin as a lifestyle, he never mentions the Sabbath. Read Gal 5:19-21 So, again, you are wrong! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Obedience to God merely because of His word is a good place to begin and it is OK to do things because God said to do them. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you..... My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.” [Gen 17:11-14] "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor..." [Matt 19:21] Luke 6:30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back....But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. [Luke 6:30,35] Just do it, John...no excuses...just obey. I bet you won't do it, will you? See, it's not okay if we question the Sabbath as you push it, but if we give you other commands that require total self-sacrifice, then you make excuses. Two can play this game, John. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 You are getting this from Jack Sequeira, who in turn got it from both the Bible and from A. T. Jones' books, especially A Consecrated Way To Perfection and some of his other writings. John, I got this from my own understanding reading the Bible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 3) It's very important to realize that the eternal gospel is being proclaimed now, and it includes the Sabbath message. See Rev. 14. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted September 29, 2008 Author Share Posted September 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: Robert The Judaizers would have argued with you: Genesis 17:7 7 “And I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant' date=' to be God to you and to your descendants after you. ....9 God said further to Abraham, “Now as for you, you shall keep My covenant, you and your descendants after you throughout their generations. 10 “This is My covenant, which you shall keep, between Me and you and your descendants after you: every male among you shall be circumcised. I'll play the devil's advocate: "John, you are a spiritual Jew, you must be circumcised because God told Abraham that this was "an everlasting covenant"! IF you refuse, well, you'll be cut off...no heaven for you!" Wow, I'd make a good Judaizer. Okay John, your answer? Rob [/quote'] John, you missed this one? This one is hard for you, huh? You say circumcision isn't a part of the NC (and to a point I understand your meaning) but...you still have a conundrum! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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