Hypocritical Left or Right

[Dr. Shane]

Let's say hypothetically that during McCain's Navy career he knew a guy that had been in the KKK and burned down black churches. After getting out of the Navy the guy helped McCain get elected to Congress and later worked with him on some veterans programs. Would that be enough to convince anyone not to vote for McCain?

That is about the same as the Ayers and Obama connection. Obama used Ayers for political reasons and that is about it. I don't think Obama supported Ayers in what Ayers had done. However if the radical connection was to the other candidate, I think many of the far left now defending Obama would be making a big deal out of a similar connection to McCain.

[Neil D]

That is about the same as the Ayers and Obama connection. Obama used Ayers for political reasons and that is about it. I don't think Obama supported Ayers in what Ayers had done.

[John317]

If it was just a matter of Ayers, that would be one thing. But it isn't. There is a pattern here with Obama.

On the thread regarding Obama's being the most liberal Senator, it was at first denied. But it is not being denied now. It being embraced. Neither is it denied that he is the first Democratic presidential candidate to have campaigned for socialists. It is now being said that those things don't matter.

Well, it may not matter to some people, but the point is that the American people should know these things before they decide who to elect as the next president.

If the Americans want a socialist or a very liberal president, they should only get one if they know about it beforehand and not after the election.

The main problem with socialism from an Adventist viewpoint has to do with the issue of religious freedom. We know that this country will change its constitution and repudiate our republican form of government. Under socialism, the government believes the people's rights do not come from God but from the government or the people. Such governments believe they have can take away the rights of the people to free expression of religion.

We have been the land of liberty, but the Spirit of prophecy shows how this will change. In fact, I believe we are seeing the beginning of the change now. America already is not the same country it was when I was born and as I was growing up.

Socialism also encourages labor unions, which Adventists don't support.

Those are a few of the reasons I oppose socialism and would not vote for a socialist candidate. I don't see Adventism and socialism as being in agreement on several major issues.

[Dr. Shane]

Certainly Obama used Ayers just like he used Reverend Wright and his church. Every politician has a trail of people they have used to get to where they are and many people (like myself) have volunteered to be used by them.

McCain was cleared in the Keating 5 so I cannot hold that against him at all. The fact he was the only Republican involved speaks toward his wonderful way of working with Democrats in a bipartisan manner. I consider his involvement in that good. The more I hear about it the more I think about voting for him.

[carolaa]

The main problem with socialism from an Adventist viewpoint has to do with the issue of religious freedom. We know that this country will change its constitution and repudiate our republican form of government. Under socialism, the government believes the people's rights do not come from God but from the government or the people. Such governments believe they have can take away the rights of the people to free expression of religion.

We have been the land of liberty, but the Spirit of prophecy shows how this will change. In fact, I believe we are seeing the beginning of the change now. America already is not the same country it was when I was born and as I was growing up.

Socialism also encourages labor unions, which Adventists don't support.

Those are a few of the reasons I oppose socialism and would not vote for a socialist candidate. I don't see Adventism and socialism as being in agreement on several major issues.

Um...and you don't see these things happening now, under the current administration?! As I see it, we're on the fast road to socialism with the government steadily taking over the entire financial system and our freedoms. They will soon have control over every aspect of our lives.

[Tom Wetmore]

Shane I would have to agree with the first part of what you have said (OK, pick yourself up off the floor...).

But I think that what you are seeing is that the far left is not using this sort of lowbrow monkey poo slinging tactic. That is not to say that they never do, but I think the evidence supports that they also do so far less frequently than the Right. (100% negative ads from McCain/Republicans and 30% from Obama/Democrats during the last week.)They really don't have to take such desperate measures since Obama is in the lead.

Tom

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

The main problem with socialism from an Adventist viewpoint has to do with the issue of religious freedom. We know that this country will change its constitution and repudiate our republican form of government. Under socialism, the government believes the people's rights do not come from God but from the government or the people. Such governments believe they have can take away the rights of the people to free expression of religion.

We have been the land of liberty, but the Spirit of prophecy shows how this will change. In fact, I believe we are seeing the beginning of the change now. America already is not the same country it was when I was born and as I was growing up.

Socialism also encourages labor unions, which Adventists don't support.

Those are a few of the reasons I oppose socialism and would not vote for a socialist candidate. I don't see Adventism and socialism as being in agreement on several major issues.

Um...and you don't see these things happening now, under the current administration?! As I see it, we're on the fast road to socialism with the government steadily taking over the entire financial system and our freedoms. They will soon have control over every aspect of our lives.

Of course I see it now. It is obvious, and the process will only be accelerated in the future, and probably sooner rather than later. There are already plans to get the government heavily involved in banking and in many other things that before were understood to be properly the prerogatives of private business. The federal government is growing in strength. Under socialism it would be accelerated rapidly and dramatically because a socialist government would eventually bring everything under the umbrella of the government.

The current economic crisis will probably get worse. People are already very angry. Some are angry at the US government for allowing this to happen. Both parties share the blame.

People today are angry about losing their money. Many are angry because they believe McCain is standing by silently while the Democrats under Obama are changing the direction of this country from one of free market republicanism to one of planned market democratic socialism.

The danger is that under these conditions, and under further crisis, the United States could turn its back on those things that made this country a land of liberty-- all for the sake of economic security. This would include changing our constitution, and accepting an even larger and more powerful federal government. Under an extreme crisis, such as war and an economic collapse as well as social unrest, you would see this country speak louder as a dragon. I believe we see today the preparations and foundations being laid for these developments.

Our people are forgetting our roots and what made us a great country. It was not the government. It was the people. Not a people who relied on the government to do everything for them but people who were independent and who had strong moral values and who believed that individual liberty was worth dying for. They wouldn't surrender their freedoms for economic security from the government.

What should we as Seventh-day Adventists do as we see these developments happen that we have known about for over 130 years? Should we be fighting and arguing among ourselves over politics and taking sides about party politics? No. We should be alert to what is happening and be encouraging each other to hold on to Christ and realize that He is coming soon. We see the signs all around us.

I am not taking sides here in terms of a fight or violence. All I am saying is that the American people should know that Obama is a very liberal Senator and a socialist. If they choose to select him, more power to him, but Americans should know who and what they are electing.

However, if the two sides begin fighting--and they very well could-- our position should not be one of fighting with one side or the other but of proclaiming the gospel of Jesus Christ and the Three Angel's Messages.

[carolaa]

All I'm saying is that the Republican administration is already turning the country in a socialist direction. We don't need Obama for that to happen. I don't think it matters much who wins the election. Either one will do whatever it takes to keep their corporation cronies happy. If you want to talk about independence and dying for what you believe in, then you shouldn't be talking about Republicans vs Democrats, because it doesn't matter. You need to vote for a 3rd party candidate. When more people stand up and do that, then you will see the people taking charge of their country again.

[John317]

All I'm saying is that the Republican administration is already turning the country in a socialist direction. We don't need Obama for that to happen. I don't think it matters much who wins the election.....

I think you will have to admit that if George Bush, who ran as a Republican, is already turning the country in a socialist direction, then a very liberal President Obama can be expected only to hasten that process along. He certainly would do nothing to discourage it or slow it down.

If you like socialism and want to see it in the US, then vote for Obama. All of my socialist friends are.

In Denver I did not meet a single socialist who favored McCain. You can see their signs in some of the photographs. It speaks for itself.

[Neil D]

Quote:

In Denver I did not meet a single socialist who favored McCain. You can see their signs in some of the photographs. It speaks for itself.

When I was in college, taking drama classes, the teacher/books taught that in live theater, each actor can have an interaction with a member of the audience. And doing so, will enhance the experience of the audience. Audiences can come away with several different points of view...but those points of view are limited by the number of the audience.

In film, you only see what the director tells the cameraman to shoot. The audience experiences whatever the director shoots...The audience is limited to ONE point of view, that of the director. So, in essence, the director manipulates what information is given to the audience. The director feeds the audience what he wants them to experience...

Your photographs, therefore, are what YOU want US to see....You fed us the information that you wanted us to see. Yeah, it's a form of manipulation.