Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 As Adventists, everything we believe, we should be able to support from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. Please show me your support for abortion (killing babies)from the Bible and/or Spirit of Prophecy? Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 25, 2008 In the instances where I've have been in the position of counseling someone who was thinking of having an abortion I've always urged them to keep the baby and think of adoption etc. Of course I am against abortion. As I talk with them its always clear to me that it is their choice and I make it clear that this is something between them and God. If you interpret that as support for abortion so be it. From the scripture you quoted I assume that you believe that if a policeman kills an innocent citizen he should be put to death. If a marine kills an innocent person in Iraq he should be put to death. If a pilot drops a bomb on the wrong house in Afghanistan and kills a family he should be put to death. If the IDF fires a missile into a street in Gaza and it kills an old man who is going to the store he should be put to death. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Lazarus, your profile says that you are a pastor, is that really true? If you are, surely you know that murder and killing are two different things. "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is better interpreted as "Thou Shalt Not Murder". All of those incidents you mentioned do not fall under the term "murder". You are trying to "muddy the waters". If you are a counselor...and a pastor...then you should be counseling against abortion...for any and all reasons excluding that the life of the mother/baby is truly at stake. And even then, it is questionable. I have a friend who used to work for us in our store, who was six months pregnant....everything seemed fine. Then one day she went into liver failure, literally over night. Come to find out, her liver had failed earlier in the pregnancy and she didn't die, because her body was using her babies liver! The Dr.'s said she MUST have an abortion, or she and the baby would die, within 48 hours. She refused the abortion. God heard many peoples prayers! With no inducements of anykind, her body went into labor, and the baby was born naturally - completely healthy, 3 months early!...they then proceeded to give her a liver transplant, and both the mother and the baby are healthy....that was about 10 years ago... This story made big news...she was interviewed on Oprah... I believe God rewarded her for not having the abortion. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 25, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 25, 2008 Lazarus, your profile says that you are a pastor, is that really true? Why would I lie about that? Quote: If you are a counselor...and a pastor...then you should be counseling against abortion... Do you think I'm counseling in favor of abortion? what makes you think I would counsel in favor of abortion? Quote: I have a friend who used to work for us in our store, who was six months pregnant....everything seemed fine. Then one day she went into liver failure, literally over night. Come to find out, her liver had failed earlier in the pregnancy and she didn't die, because her body was using her babies liver! The Dr.'s said she MUST have an abortion, or she and the baby would die, within 48 hours. She refused the abortion. God heard many peoples prayers! With no inducements of anykind, her body went into labor, and the baby was born naturally - completely healthy, 3 months early!...they then proceeded to give her a liver transplant, and both the mother and the baby are healthy....that was about 10 years ago... This story made big news...she was interviewed on Oprah... I believe God rewarded her for not having the abortion. Thats a wonderful story but are you sating every woman that is told she will die if she has the baby should go ahead and have the baby anyway? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Apparently these texts mean nothing to you..... Quote: If someone says, "I love God," but hates a Christian brother or sister, that person is a liar; for if we don't love people we can see, how can we love God, whom we cannot see?" 1 John 4:2. Quote: "Anyone who takes another person's life must be put to death." Leviticus 24:17. Quote: "Now suppose two men are fighting, and in the process they accidentally strike a pregnant woman so she gives birth prematurely. If no further injury results, the man who struck the woman must pay the amount of compensation the woman's husband demands and the judges approve. But if there is further injury, the punishment must match the injury: a life for a life..." Exodus 21:22,23. Tammy please don't misrepresent Christian belief. 38"You have heard that it was said, 'Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.'[a] 39But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. 41If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. 42Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you. The Christian theology is that one of compassion. Only God can decide who is to die, and in OT, the prophets were consulted before administering the death sentence. Be very careful where you are going with this... and you are going to a very dark place. Killing those who kill does not change the world, it only perpetuates killing. I do agree with you that we should not vote for a person based on few good beliefs that they hold, and disregard the rest. Yet what do you think about McCain? He, along with many republicans (and democrats) voted in sanctions on Iraq that resulted in deaths of nearly 500k iraqi children. I don't see pro-life people jumping up and down in disgust. Consider the US led occupation of East Timor, and support of Suharto... who was responsible for the worst genocides in history with US looking the other way. http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB174/index.htm I don't see pro-life people protesting. The only issue for pro-lifers seems to be the issue of abortion. And the solution that is being proposed is to not vote for the candidate that is pro-choice. Lastly, pro-choice DOES NOT MEAN PRO-ABORTION!!! It means pro choice, it does not mean pro-death. If I leave it up to you whether to commit adultery, or be faithful to your husband.... DOES IT MEAN I'M PRO ADULTERY? Of course not. It means that I'm pro educated choice, and I want you to make a choice, not based on fear of being punished, but based on your own beliefs and convictions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 I guess you would probably agree with many liberals who are for euthanasia? If a baby is too young to live outside of the womb, without the support of its mothers organs, surely an old person who is dependent on an oxygen machine or some other life support system isn't worth anything either.... That's an interesting point. I guess we are kind of playing God when we try to artificially extend people's lives. Maybe we shouldn't be doing that. I mean, if it is wrong to play God with a fetus's life, then it's probably just as wrong to play God with a terminally ill person's life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy Lazarus, your profile says that you are a pastor, is that really true? Why would I lie about that? I'm not accusing you of lying, but there are many on forums who portray themselves as someone they are not, so as to cover their identity...I haven't been on here long, so honestly wondered... Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Tammy. I understand. It is understandable to wonder about some on this forum. If you really want to wonder about someone ... try that pirate guy ... Neil. He claims to be both a pirate and a liberal. But inside ... I think he is a conservative at heart. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 If you are a counselor...and a pastor...then you should be counseling against abortion... Quote: Do you think I'm counseling in favor of abortion? what makes you think I would counsel in favor of abortion? Well, you said, Quote: As I talk with them its always clear to me that it is their choice and I make it clear that this is something between them and God. If you interpret that as support for abortion so be it. I do interpret that as support for abortion. You should be telling them that they don't have a choice, if they want God's blessing. When a married man comes to you and says he has a girlfriend on the side, do you tell him that it is his choice, he can fool around with the girlfriend and still be a Christian? Or, do you tell him that that is called, "ADULTREY" and that no adulterers will be in Heaven? Abortion is called "MURDER" and there will be no murderers in Heaven, either. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Quote: no adulterers will be in Heaven? Could you clarify this Tammy? There are a lot of OT greats who would turn over in their graves to hear this. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy I guess you would probably agree with many liberals who are for euthanasia? If a baby is too young to live outside of the womb, without the support of its mothers organs, surely an old person who is dependent on an oxygen machine or some other life support system isn't worth anything either.... That's an interesting point. I guess we are kind of playing God when we try to artificially extend people's lives. Maybe we shouldn't be doing that. I mean, if it is wrong to play God with a fetus's life, then it's probably just as wrong to play God with a terminally ill person's life. Now, this is warped, twisted, thinking! Extending someones life, especially someone who wants to live is altogether different from snuffing out the life of someone who never was even given the opportunity to choose to live for themselves. And believe me, people are not "playing God" when they kill unborn babies! They are playing Satan. God is life....Satan is death! Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Quote: no adulterers will be in Heaven? Could you clarify this Tammy? There are a lot of OT greats who would turn over in their graves to hear this. Sure Redwood... If a person has not turned away from sin, be it adultery, stealing, murder, coveting, you name it...they will not be in Heaven. We have all sinned...but if we don't turn away from the sin, and call sin by its right name, and come to hate the sin, we will not be in Heaven. Yes, David fell into adultery....but he repented....and he will be in Heaven.... Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 He didn't repent of the murder that he conspired on his death bed. What makes you confident that he will be in heaven? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 He didn't repent of the murder that he conspired on his death bed. What makes you confident that he will be in heaven? As king, David was dispensing justice and he had a right to do it under that system and in that day. Notice the difference between the various orders given: he's talking about rewards for the good that people did and punishments for the evil they did. As the head of the government, David had a right and obligation to do these things. Remember that Israel was not a democratic society. Law was enforced and made by the king. That's the harsh reality. There's nothing in the Bible to indicate that David was sinning when he did this. Today if a policeman is killed in the line of duty after having shot someone, we don't say he committed the crime of murder and therefore won't be saved. (At least I wouldn't.) It's similar in the case of David. It goes again to the difference between killing and murder. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 You should be telling them that they don't have a choice, if they want God's blessing. I don't know how much counseling you've done but that kind of approach probably wouldn't lead to a healthy outcome. Quote: When a married man comes to you and says he has a girlfriend on the side, do you tell him that it is his choice, Sometimes I do say that, and I then explain the consequences of his choice . First the immediate ones and then the long term consequences. Quote: he can fool around with the girlfriend and still be a Christian? no Quote: Or, do you tell him that that is called, "ADULTREY" and that no adulterers will be in Heaven? Abortion is called "MURDER" and there will be no murderers in Heaven, either. that's one approach that could be taken. Didn't you see this in my first remarks! Quote: In the instances where I've have been in the position of counseling someone who was thinking of having an abortion I've always urged them to keep the baby and think of adoption etc. Of course I am against abortion. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Now, this is warped, twisted, thinking! Extending someones life, especially someone who wants to live is altogether different from snuffing out the life of someone who never was even given the opportunity to choose to live for themselves. And believe me, people are not "playing God" when they kill unborn babies! They are playing Satan. God is life....Satan is death! God is the one who decides who lives or dies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 Quote: I'm not accusing you of lying your profile says that you are a pastor, is that really true? I suppose if I agreed with your positions you wouldn't have questioned whether I was a Pastor! Interesting! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 I counsel with people all the time in our home, and abortion is something that has to be cleaned up. It causes depression, guilt and shame. I am amazed how sin binds and destroys a person, and I am amazed how God can change a life. Abortion must be repented of and taken to Jesus for healing. That is a painful and victorious process, and I have yet to see someone repeat that sin after resolving it. It causes too much pain. oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hey Laz. Just wanted to say hi and God bless!! Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 I counsel with people all the time in our home, and abortion is something that has to be cleaned up. It causes depression, guilt and shame. I am amazed how sin binds and destroys a person, and I am amazed how God can change a life. Abortion must be repented of and taken to Jesus for healing. That is a painful and victorious process, and I have yet to see someone repeat that sin after resolving it. It causes too much pain. oG totally agree!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 Hey Laz. Just wanted to say hi and God bless!! hey, Blessings to you too. Two months to go before our new arrival!!!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy Now, this is warped, twisted, thinking! Extending someones life, especially someone who wants to live is altogether different from snuffing out the life of someone who never was even given the opportunity to choose to live for themselves. And believe me, people are not "playing God" when they kill unborn babies! They are playing Satan. God is life....Satan is death! God is the one who decides who lives or dies. Not so... When the abortion is performed, the Dr. who performed it kills the baby, that is why it is called MURDER. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: olger I counsel with people all the time in our home, and abortion is something that has to be cleaned up. It causes depression, guilt and shame. I am amazed how sin binds and destroys a person, and I am amazed how God can change a life. Abortion must be repented of and taken to Jesus for healing. That is a painful and victorious process, and I have yet to see someone repeat that sin after resolving it. It causes too much pain. oG totally agree!!! What part do you agree with, Lazarus? The part that says a person never has a 2nd abortion once they have truly repented of the first, or the first part of the post? I think you would agree with the him when he said, "I have yet to see someone repeat that sin after resolving it.", but I can't see how you agree with the first part, because if you do, you would not be in favor of voting for a man who has no problem with abortion. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Hey Laz. Just wanted to say hi and God bless!! hey, Blessings to you too. Two months to go before our new arrival!!!!! You promise to post a pic here when it happens? Everyone will want to get a peek, ya know. That is going to be one very happy day. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 you would not be in favor of voting for a man who has no problem with abortion. Here's a good article that broadly presents my opinion. He says it better than I ever could. I believe that abortion is an unspeakable evil, yet I support Sen. Barack Obama, who is pro-choice. I do not support him because he is pro-choice, but in spite of it. Is that a proper moral choice for a committed Catholic? As one of the inaugural members of the U.S. bishops' National Review Board on clergy sexual abuse, and as a canon lawyer, I answer with a resounding yes. Despite what some Republicans would like Catholics to believe, the list of what the church calls "intrinsically evil acts" does not begin and end with abortion. In fact, there are many intrinsically evil acts, and a committed Catholic must consider all of them in deciding how to vote. Last November, the U.S. bishops released "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," a 30-page document that provides several examples of intrinsically evil acts: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, torture, racism, and targeting noncombatants in acts of war. http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2058 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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