The Obama Message

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

He tries to say that he signed it because he doesn't want to take a chance of upsetting Roe vers Wade.... Well, Roe vers Wade should be upturned.... Abortion should NOT be legal in this country, no more than murder should be legal, and for Adventists to argue in favor of abortion is an abomination.

That's your opinion....

.....and it appears to have great meaning to you. So, please...don't be too upset with others who do not share your opinion....

That is like saying, "Don't be upset with a mass murderer"....did you watch those videos???? The abortionist who tried to kill Gianna says that performing abortions is "HIS PASSION"! Where is your discernment!

[Tammy]

Originally Posted By: Tammy

I KNOW where our forefathers would stand on this issue, if they were alive today. Ellen White thought that it was cruel for a mother not to nurse her child if it was possible to do so....what would she say to the mother/father who kills the child?

I remember reading EGW talking about a family who had too many children...the subject was more about the mother being kept in children, but I suspect that if abortion were available, in that circumstance, it might be allowable.

So it is better to kill babies than to not conceive them at all???? There are forms of birth control that do not take life... Are you not familiar with the quotes that we are to preserve life...not take life???

[Tammy]

And please don't think I am heartless towards those who have made this mistake....I'm not...if they repent, God will forgive them, and good can come from even this...but if we don't see abortion for the crime and sin that it is, we'll never put an end to it in this country.

Too late.....Your enthusiasm has made you blind to the circumstances of others..

[Tom Wetmore]

Single issue voters are dangerous and have gotten us to the disgusting mess we are in right now. Their willful myopia focusing on a singular litmus test have caused them to totally ignore all the negative aspects and truly frightening ideas and qualities of the candidate that supports their narrow point of view. It seems to matter little to them that on the many other pressing issues and concerns facing the country that their candidate will do far more harm for the country and globally than could possibly flow from the single evil they zealously campaign against.

The President is not the president of that single issue or agenda. The President is the president of the whole country, the leader handling ALL the issues. Deciding on who can best lead must take into consideration all the factors and consider the sum total of what will be best for all concerned, collectively.

Let me put it bluntly. For example, anyone who votes for or against McCain/Palin only because he put a woman on the ticket is no better, IMHO, than the one who votes for McCain for the singular reason that McCain is the white candidate.

And to the point at hand, how many lives have been destroyed by the current war-mongering, poverty creating, yet firmly anti-abortion President? Are not those lost lives of equal value to the lives of aborted babies? Poverty alone kills millions more babies, children and adults in one year than all the aborted babies since Roe vs. Wade was decided. Which direction would be most pro-life, taking inot account that fact? If one wants to ride the moral high horse, consider the hundreds of Biblical texts about our moral duty to care for and help the poor.

Tom

[Woody]

Quote:

There's nobody like this guy! He's a godsend to our country!

The first sentence ... I agree with.

The second sentence ... is scary. No. He in not the Messiah.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Neil D

Quote:

And please don't think I am heartless towards those who have made this mistake....I'm not...if they repent, God will forgive them, and good can come from even this...but if we don't see abortion for the crime and sin that it is, we'll never put an end to it in this country.

Too late.....Your enthusiasm has made you blind to the circumstances of others..

There is no blindness on my part! What circumstance validates taking the life of an innocent baby who has no voice of its own? That is pure selfishness and cowardishness...the ultimate of both. And for the mother who has been influenced by society and a selfish husband/boyfriend to do this, God will forgive her...but them...there will be little mercy unless they too, deeply repent.

Madam,

I know that there are a million fetus' that are dying every year thru abortion. What you fail to realize is that that decision is a woman's decision and one that I am more than willing to let her decide. You, OTOH, are not willing to let those women make those decisions.

And whether you know it or not, there is 10 times the number of people who have died for choice than those who were aborted. And there is ONE who has died for your freedom to choose, and to even guarantee your wrong choice.

If life were held in such a high regard, Achan and family would not have died for his greed.

So, please, do not lecture me on things that I am fully aware of. I prefer not to trample the rights of others, and yes, even to the detriment of a fetus' life, just to guarantee the right to choose. And, yes, I still consider myself a REAL Adventist.

[missionlady]

What about the rights of "unborn women"? Aren't their rights being trampled?

Murder is murder.

If someone wants to kill their neighbor...why should we trample on their right to do that? Maybe they have a good reason....

If I were an African American, I would be very concerned about Planned Parenthood trying to eliminate black babies.

As a "white" person I am very concerned about that. I personally don't see "many" races in this world. I like the way I heard someone refer to it. It is a continuum. There is one race on this earth: the Human race.

How many of us can say that we are of only one "race"? Senator Obama is not "African American", he is only half that and half white or whatever that is. So why do "we" have to focus on race.

I know, I know, I am the one who brought the race issue up here, but this is something that frustrates me.

[missionlady]

I don't think that because someone mentions one concern about a certain candidate, that we should come to the conclusion that that person is a "single-issue" voter.

That said though, I will not vote for someone who is set up to be the "Messiah".

I have seen many people (pastors, evangelists, etc.-including Adventist pastors) that people seem to worship. Whenever I see that, red flags go up.

Then I have to consider why people seem to be worshipping these people. Is it because the "worshipped" promotes themselves? Is it that the people doing the worshipping have a habit of finding humans to worship?

Then I have to consider how the "worshipped" react. Do they refuse the worship and try to refocus people to the real issue? (Sometimes I see half-hearted, ineffective attempts to deflect the worship.) Or do they accept the worship?

By the way, Neil, Ellen White talks about Jesus' "divinity flashing through his humanity".

[Neil D]

What about the rights of "unborn women"? Aren't their rights being trampled?

[missionlady]

Okay, Neil. Let me try to clear something up.

I had moved on to the topic of worship. I guess you were still talking about "transfixed". Sorry about the confusion. :smile:

John 7

45Finally the temple guards went back to the chief priests and Pharisees, who asked them, "Why didn't you bring him in?"

46"No one ever spoke the way this man does," the guards declared.

47"You mean he has deceived you also?" the Pharisees retorted. 48"Has any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed in him?

from Merriam-Webster.com

1 : to pierce through with or as if with a pointed weapon : impale

2 : to hold motionless by or as if by piercing <he stood transfixed by her gaze>

I don't think it is the same. The implication of the Bible text is that just maybe the guards had come to believe in Jesus. That doesn't really imply transfixed. I may believe something someone tells me, but that doesn't mean that I will be "held motionless" by them.

[missionlady]

Interesting questions:

When does life begin?

Possible answers:

First breath

Conception

First heartbeat

When does life end?

Possible answers:

Last breath

No brain function

Last heartbeat

According to the current medical world:

Life begins with first breath

Life ends with last heartbeat

Why the inconsistency?

Shouldn't the standard be the same?

[Bravus]

First heartbeat is a long time after conception

[Bravus]

About Week 5, apparently. Doesn't help much with abortion, but does help with 'abortifacients' ('morning after pills') like RU-486.

(not at all supporting abortion, by the way, just taking the arguments as they're laid out)

[missionlady]

I personally believe life begins at conception.

Most women don't even know that they are pregnant when the heartbeat starts.

So most abortions are performed after the heartbeat starts.

The theory that life begins with the first breath and ends with the last heartbeat seems rather inconsistant, and convenient-although not convenient for the baby.

My daughters like to point out how someone that has been trying to get pregnant starts talking about the "baby" as soon as they find out they are pregnant. They don't talk about their "fetus".

[Denise]

Hi Tammy,

A friend of mine just sent this video and website to me a few days ago. Have you ever seen a video on how they just trash the fetus into a trash can? They even show the babies in a trash can. It broke my heart to see that. So sad. I will never vote for a president who supports abortion. It would bother my conscience.

[John317]

Hey Denise,

One time I was on a pro-abortion debating team at a university, and after our side talked for half an hour, the pro-life side got up and simply turned the lights off and showed slide after slide of babies in the trash. Afterwards you could have heard a pin drop, and the pro-abortion side did not even get up to reply. I never saw anything like it. Those pictures are really powerful.

[Denise]

Yes, they are....when I seen only one picture, it really hurt deep. I never knew how cruel man could be, just to trash a human being in the trash can...an animal is not even treated like that....Most are at least buried.

[carolaa]

That's why Democracy Now! intentionally shows a lot of war pictures. I can't in good conscience support someone who would keep us in an unnecessary war.

[Tom Wetmore]

TU

And how about pictures of the 7.3 million poverty related deaths annually world-wide, most of whom are children...

Can we get as outraged about those deaths as those killed by abortion?

I think it is time to outlaw the causes of poverty.

[Neil D]

Quote:

I don't think it is the same. The implication of the Bible text is that just maybe the guards had come to believe in Jesus. That doesn't really imply transfixed. I may believe something someone tells me, but that doesn't mean that I will be "held motionless" by them.

I am not going to quibble over some minutia in mine or your argument. The point that I am attempting to make is that one can believe in a variety of beliefs and still be a "real adventist" and still vote for Obama...

So, don't be making sweeping guilt accusations and bring into question the patriotism or the religion of one just because they disagree with your view point. For one, it makes you look a bit rabid, and it weakens your argument and crediblity.

[missionlady]

Neil, Neil...

Chill, man!

You quote me in your quote, but then go on to accuse me of things that I did not say.

Please, reread or read my posts. I never said anything about "real Adventists".

What "sweeping guilt accusations" did I make?

Maybe your rabid comment could more appropriately be applied to yourself. (Notice I did not say it did. But if you apply your reasoning, maybe it would.)

You may not think that I am an "effective Adventist", but I do believe that you are a "real Adventist". I have no reason to believe otherwise, because I don't know you and I believe you claim to be one. So I will choose to take you at your word.

It is true that I don't agree with you on some things. That doesn't mean I don't want to be your friend and have civil discussions with you. I have learned a lot by having civil discussions with people with whom I disagree.

[Tammy]

Hi Tammy,

A friend of mine just sent this video and website to me a few days ago. Have you ever seen a video on how they just trash the fetus into a trash can? They even show the babies in a trash can. It broke my heart to see that. So sad. I will never vote for a president who supports abortion. It would bother my conscience.

Hi Denise,

No, I've not seen that video....could you please send a link of it to me? I agree, one must not have much of a conscience to be able to vote for a President who is not Pro-Life. And it is not just a "one issue" mindset because the vast majority of the time, those who are Pro-Choice (or as I see it, Pro-Death) are also for Homosexual Rights, and many other things that we as SDA's should be strong against....I imagine that the same people for those things will be or would be for Euthanasia of the elderly when the time comes.

[Tammy]

Hey Denise,

One time I was on a pro-abortion debating team at a university, and after our side talked for half an hour, the pro-life side got up and simply turned the lights off and showed slide after slide of babies in the trash. Afterwards you could have heard a pin drop, and the pro-abortion side did not even get up to reply. I never saw anything like it. Those pictures are really powerful.

I have thought before that if I had the money, I would pay for that to be shown on TV...and let people see what it is really like....

[Tammy]

That's why Democracy Now! intentionally shows a lot of war pictures. I can't in good conscience support someone who would keep us in an unnecessary war.

But you can in good conscience vote for a President who does not protect the unborn? Those with no voice? The smallest and the weakest of our kind?

[Tom Wetmore]

The point is the blindness or hypocrisy of those who zealously claim to be prolife only being concerned about unborn life. There seems to be a callous disregard for other life.