Woody Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Quote: the vast majority of the time, those who are Pro-Choice (or as I see it, Pro-Death) are also for Homosexual Rights, and many other things that we as SDA's should be strong against Tammy ... I didn't want this to go un-noticed .... Interesting concept. I wonder if women have a double responsibility? John317? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 21, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2008 Quote: the vast majority of the time, those who are Pro-Choice (or as I see it, Pro-Death) are also for Homosexual Rights, and many other things that we as SDA's should be strong against Tammy ... I didn't want this to go un-noticed .... Interesting concept. I wonder if women have a double responsibility? John317? I have a "strange" view on these things, I realize, at least one that some people may consider strange. I believe the church is wrong to support abortion and homosexual practice in the church or by church members, but I believe that women should have the right to choose whether or not to have abortions, and I believe that in society at large, homosexuals should have the same rights as anyone else in America. (I'm not saying I personally favor gay marriage, however. I favor the right of gays to have a relationship made legally binding but not recognized as "marriage,"which I believe should be between males and females. In the same way I personally oppose abortion and believe it is wrong except when the life of the mother is in danger. However, I believe others should have the right to choose to do what I believe is wrong.) Would that put me in the camp who is pro-death? I hope no one thinks that. I just see a separation between church and state. Redwood, you kinda like dragging me into these kind of hot discussions, dontcha? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nuff sed Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Perhaps you should take a look at this site and tell me what you think. http://www.catholicvote.com/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Neil, Neil... Chill, man! You quote me in your quote, but then go on to accuse me of things that I did not say. My mistake. You took over where Tammy left off. And for the life of me, I have no idea why I continued this with a DIFFERENT person... As you can tell, I am passionate about allowing women to make decisions regarding their reproductive rights. Unfortunately, it may result in the death of a fetus. I have lots to say about this, but I would rather stay out of the discussion, as it is something that ends in a emotional free for all. I have already fired the first shot, and I regret it already. Now, if you will allow me, I will retire from this arena and let others more qualified than myself present this issue... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: carolaa That's why Democracy Now! intentionally shows a lot of war pictures. I can't in good conscience support someone who would keep us in an unnecessary war. But you can in good conscience vote for a President who does not protect the unborn? Those with no voice? The smallest and the weakest of our kind? Guess ya can't have everything, huh? That's why I don't have any one litmus test. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: missionlady Neil, Neil... Chill, man! You quote me in your quote, but then go on to accuse me of things that I did not say. My mistake. You took over where Tammy left off. And for the life of me, I have no idea why I continued this with a DIFFERENT person... As you can tell, I am passionate about allowing women to make decisions regarding their reproductive rights. Unfortunately, it may result in the death of a fetus. I have lots to say about this, but I would rather stay out of the discussion, as it is something that ends in a emotional free for all. I have already fired the first shot, and I regret it already. Now, if you will allow me, I will retire from this arena and let others more qualified than myself present this issue... The more this subjected is discussed...the clearer it gets. There are only two sides: Pro-Life - Pro-Death Right & Wrong Life & Death Unselfish & Selfish Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 A friend sent me a link to this video...it is very graphic, and I don't like the music that goes with it, but the video itself, everyone who believes in Pro-Death, should watch... The Survivor Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 22, 2008 Administrators Share Posted October 22, 2008 I believe that women should have the right to choose whether or not to have abortions, and I believe that in society at large, homosexuals should have the same rights as anyone else in America. (I'm not saying I personally favor gay marriage, however. I favor the right of gays to have a relationship made legally binding but not recognized as "marriage,"which I believe should be between males and females. In the same way I personally oppose abortion and believe it is wrong except when the life of the mother is in danger. However, I believe others should have the right to choose to do what I believe is wrong.) Would that put me in the camp who is pro-death?... No... It puts you in the camp of that, that...ahem... socialistic guy... Oh what's his name?.... Hmmmm... You know, the one you seem to not want to be in charge... BARAK OBAMA! Welcome to the Democratic Party... you socialist you... TU Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 A friend sent me a link to this video...it is very graphic, and I don't like the music that goes with it, but the video itself, everyone who believes in Pro-Death, should watch... The Survivor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Quote: Redwood, you kinda like dragging me into these kind of hot discussions, dontcha? Someone has to drag you out of your shell and get you to share your opinions. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Originally Posted By: missionlady Neil, Neil... Chill, man! You quote me in your quote, but then go on to accuse me of things that I did not say. My mistake. You took over where Tammy left off. And for the life of me, I have no idea why I continued this with a DIFFERENT person... As you can tell, I am passionate about allowing women to make decisions regarding their reproductive rights. Unfortunately, it may result in the death of a fetus. I have lots to say about this, but I would rather stay out of the discussion, as it is something that ends in a emotional free for all. I have already fired the first shot, and I regret it already. Now, if you will allow me, I will retire from this arena and let others more qualified than myself present this issue... Okay ... since you are calling for someone more qualified than yourself ... "I" the Republican ... have arrived. What would you like to know Neil? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 ROFL! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted October 22, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 22, 2008 I am very strongly in favour of life, and against abortion when used as a means of 'contraception'. I believe that should never happen. But I also (and I seldom talk about this) was the father of a first child who was malformed in the womb. She was not viable and there was no way she would ever have survived. The only choice we had was to abort the pregancy early, or let it runs its course with serious risks to my wife's life, and *zero* probability of a living child at the end. In one of the most wrenching decisions of our lives, we chose to abort. How dare someone far away call us 'pro-death' in that situation? Black and white thinking and a desperate lack of empathy and compassion. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 22, 2008 Author Share Posted October 22, 2008 Thanks for sharing that with us Bravus. I can't see anyone disagreeing with your decision. But it still must have been painful. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 I am very strongly in favour of life, and against abortion when used as a means of 'contraception'. I believe that should never happen. But I also (and I seldom talk about this) was the father of a first child who was malformed in the womb. She was not viable and there was no way she would ever have survived. The only choice we had was to abort the pregancy early, or let it runs its course with serious risks to my wife's life, and *zero* probability of a living child at the end. In one of the most wrenching decisions of our lives, we chose to abort. How dare someone far away call us 'pro-death' in that situation? Black and white thinking and a desperate lack of empathy and compassion. Ohh Bravus...I am so sorry! What a dreadful thing to go through and NO of course you are NOT pro-death! Wow. If anyone ever calls you that...just please know it isn't true by any stretch of the means! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 22, 2008 Share Posted October 22, 2008 Yet, if some had their way, Bravus's wife would be in jail for murder. Probably the doctor too. And maybe Bravus himself. It's really twisted thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 A friend sent me a link to this video...it is very graphic, and I don't like the music that goes with it, but the video itself, everyone who believes in Pro-Death, should watch... The Survivor Thankyou for sharing that. Did you see the Review article on "How would Ellen White vote"? Reminds me of this subject thread - on the moral issues about gay marriage and value of human life. http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post190499 in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I am very strongly in favour of life, and against abortion when used as a means of 'contraception'. I believe that should never happen. But I also (and I seldom talk about this) was the father of a first child who was malformed in the womb. She was not viable and there was no way she would ever have survived. The only choice we had was to abort the pregancy early, or let it runs its course with serious risks to my wife's life, and *zero* probability of a living child at the end. In one of the most wrenching decisions of our lives, we chose to abort. How dare someone far away call us 'pro-death' in that situation? Black and white thinking and a desperate lack of empathy and compassion. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Yet, if some had their way, Bravus's wife would be in jail for murder. Probably the doctor too. And maybe Bravus himself. It's really twisted thinking. You really have no heart, do you? Who, in their right mind would condemn a person in this situation? But, you are very willing to USE this situation to justify the other 98% of abortions...THIS IS TWISTED THINKING. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy A friend sent me a link to this video...it is very graphic, and I don't like the music that goes with it, but the video itself, everyone who believes in Pro-Death, should watch... The Survivor Thankyou for sharing that. Did you see the Review article on "How would Ellen White vote"? Reminds me of this subject thread - on the moral issues about gay marriage and value of human life. http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post190499 in Christ, Bob No Bob, I didn't see the article on "How Would Ellen White Vote?" I can't seem to find the link for it....would you please post it here for me? Thanks! I did take a look at the thread you started "Value of Human Life and the Right to Privacy" and I agree with you....it is a shame that as a church, we are so quiet on this issues. I'm sure our forefathers were not. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted October 23, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 23, 2008 I was not using our situation to argue for abortion - not at all. I was using it to argue that simplistic, one size fits all solutions do not work. Do you think that protestors outside an abortion clinic or hospital would have recognised the unusualness of our situation? Or would they simply have made it even more difficult. The statistics show that abortions become less common where abortion is legal but where there are extensive support and counselling services available, and where comprehensive sex education is offered. Abortion becomes *more* common, as well as more dangerous, where it is made illegal. So if the goal is to reduce the number of abortions (rather than to stamp out extramarital sex or make some kind of point), then the best possible approach is to keep it legal but put all our energy into (a) teaching everyone about contraception - including, but not limited to, abstinence, ( enhancing women's access to education and © enhancing adoption and support services for women who become pregnant. As the situation in Sarah Palin's family shows, even in good families young people will sometimes make mistakes. The test of a pro-life policy that is serious is whether it works or not... and whether it shows compassion in the very difficult situations that make up a small percentage of the whole statistics, but the entirety of the lives of the people living through them. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 I didn't think you were using your circumstance to argue abortion, Bravus....but there are others on the forum that are using your circumstance or similar ones for that purpose. Yes, I'm sure that the Protesters outside the clinic would have added to the distress of your situation. I honestly find it hard to believe that abortion is less common where it is legal, anymore than I would believe that alcohol consumption is less common where it is legal. That is like saying there is less sin if there are fewer laws.... I do agree that education on the horrors of abortion, abstinence, etc. is definently something we need more of in the schools....and that yes, young people in strong families make mistakes as well....I'm sure that many babies are aborted in "Christian" families, so as to not tarnish the reputation of the family. So very sad. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 Tammy, I understand your plight and disbelief.... yet outlawing something will not fix the problem. Consider Argentina today. It's fairly incredible. 40% of all pregnancies are estimated to be aborted, with 80,000 patients per year are hospitalized due to complications that come up because of the DIY abortions, and subsequently face legal charges. Compared to US, where abortion rate is 25% of all births. This is just one example to show you that the legal argument is irrelevant in cases like this. When people are in despair they resort to doing things they would never imagined doing. That's why abortions among Christians are in some denominations (like Catholics) are higher than that of non-Christians. What is so sad in this country is that many voters are making it a single most important issue when choosing a president. The president has very little pull when it comes to this issue. Bush was pro life, and even with pro-life majority in Supreme court and the Congress the change did not surface. Can you ask yourself why? Education, and not legal enforcement works far better. Don't believe? But it's almost magical when it comes to narcotic drug usage. We can compare Holland and US statistics: Lifetime prevalence of marijuana use (ages 12+) 2001 36.9% 17.0% Guess which one is higher? US, where Marijuana is illegal, or Holland ... where it is legal. Homicide rate per 100,000 population Average 1999-2001 5.56 1.51 Once again, the US is ahead when it comes to the statistics. In spite of the billions of dollars spent on war on drugs and crime. The reason behind is very simple. The illegality of a matter panders to the fallen human nature and rebelion. So, when one feels like rebelling they go about it by using drugs. The difference is that in Holland these are sold in coffee shops, and in US these are sold by armed dealers who are in constant warfare with each other. As a result of the war on drugs we have the highest prison population in the world, and the drug usage has increased. Do you we ever ask why? http://www.whitehousedrugpolicy.gov/publications/factsht/druguse/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionlady Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 So are you suggesting that we legalize drugs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
missionlady Posted October 23, 2008 Share Posted October 23, 2008 When I lived in Tennessee, someone said to us that there weren't as many criminals now since drinking was legal. There were just as many drunks and drunk drivers, etc., but the law says they aren't criminals, so I guess it's okay. I guess if we make murder legal, there wouldn't be nearly so many criminals either (oh, wait we already did that, abortion is legal). No, I'm not talking about Bravus. That is a hard situation, that I wish to stay away from. Having lost a child due to a spontaneous abortion (miscarriage), I can somewhat identity and feel the pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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