Moderators lazarus Posted October 26, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 26, 2008 You promise to post a pic here when it happens? Everyone will want to get a peek, ya know. That is going to be one very happy day. will do, I promise. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Ehem.. Who is the Catholic in this discussion? oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 26, 2008 Administrators Share Posted October 26, 2008 ... http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2058 TU Very well stated indeed! And today's Donnesbury makes the point in a somewhat lighter way, but nonetheless out of the mouths of cartoonists and Catholics, truth is told: Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Somebody's Campolo complex is showing.. Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 I believe that abortion is an unspeakable evil, yet I support Sen. Barack Obama, who is pro-choice. That says it all - unspeakable evil " is the price" that some are willing to pay. That get's us to Ellen White's own position on the value of human life -- and the fact that she viewed the unspeakable evils regarding that SAME issue in her day as too great a price to pay for political gain. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: BobRyan It is interesting that the STATE argues that it is "murder" if the Baby is "located in the wrong place" and when the STATE has the moral clarity to "figure out it is murder" you would think that Bible believing Christians would have an even better clue. And I am not referring to a debate over a zygote -- that is not the great issue in America today. I really don't think most people have an argument about whether abortion is taking a life or not. The argument has to do with a person's right over their own body. Hence the reference above about the State calling it "murder" depending on "LOCATION" -- something that the Bible never mentions as a reason to justify murder of infants. Adventists are known for being sensitive to the subject of Sabbath and what God calls us to do in honor of it -- so imagine the magnitude of 'significance' that these moral issues must have for Ellen White to urge that we vote "EVEN on Sabbath if necessary" - as we saw here http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post190568 And here http://www.adventistforum.com/forum/ubbt...html#Post190573 And as mentioned already - There is a good article in the Review discussing "How would Ellen White vote" http://www.adventistreview.org/issue.php?issue=2008-1525&page=8 In Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted October 26, 2008 Administrators Share Posted October 26, 2008 Somebody's Campolo complex is showing.. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: carolaa God is the one who decides who lives or dies. [/quote'] Not so... When the abortion is performed, the Dr. who performed it kills the baby, that is why it is called MURDER. OK, God has control over who He allows to live or die. My point is that it is ultimately up to God, not you or me or Satan. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 I can't see how you agree with the first part, because if you do, you would not be in favor of voting for a man who has no problem with abortion. Now you are twisting words again. Obama has never said he has no problem with abortion. He just has a different way of addressing it than you would like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy you would not be in favor of voting for a man who has no problem with abortion. Here's a good article that broadly presents my opinion. He says it better than I ever could. I believe that abortion is an unspeakable evil, yet I support Sen. Barack Obama, who is pro-choice. I do not support him because he is pro-choice, but in spite of it. Is that a proper moral choice for a committed Catholic? As one of the inaugural members of the U.S. bishops' National Review Board on clergy sexual abuse, and as a canon lawyer, I answer with a resounding yes. Despite what some Republicans would like Catholics to believe, the list of what the church calls "intrinsically evil acts" does not begin and end with abortion. In fact, there are many intrinsically evil acts, and a committed Catholic must consider all of them in deciding how to vote. Last November, the U.S. bishops released "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship," a 30-page document that provides several examples of intrinsically evil acts: abortion, euthanasia, embryonic stem-cell research, torture, racism, and targeting noncombatants in acts of war. http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2058 Yes, I read that article a while back. It is excellent! And very insightful on showing how some people dwell on one litmus test out of many important issues. I admit it is difficult to decide on a candidate when no party embraces all the issues I personally think are important, and yet I have a civic and God-given responsibility to make a decision and vote for a candidate. (I believe not voting would be wrong.) I will vote for the candidate who embraces most of the values I consider to be important, and I think it's pretty ridiculous to believe that I am responsible for whatever he/she does that I don't agree with, because there are going to be those things no matter who I vote for. It would be very presumptuous for me to tell someone who votes for McCain that they are voting FOR war and torture, for instance. But then to go further and say they couldn't be a good Adventist because of their vote would be just ignorant and really judgmental. (By the way, the Adventist church's current position on abortion is more in line with Obama's than with McCain's, so anyone who votes for Obama can be assured that their church standing is safe.) I personally believe a lot of people like having a litmus test, because then they don't have to think or be very informed on the issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 26, 2008 Author Share Posted October 26, 2008 I have a litmus test .... If you have Sarah Palin on the team ... I will vote for you. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Let's see... Sarah Palin stands for: Hard work. Christian values Not killing children - even impaired ones. Drilling for our own oil, and not bowing down to the GangGreens (I like that sort of thing) Supporting small business (I kinda like that) Lower taxes. Rooting out corruption in her own party. Let's see Obama bin Biden do that.. he won't. Family values. Snowmobile racing. (I like that sort of thing). Being a submissive/supportive wife. (In an interview after Todd's third championship, she was asked are you goingto let him do this next year? She replied, We don't have a marriage where I have to "let" him. I support him." She is a joyful person. (I like that sort of thing). yours truly, oG Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 CoA ... If you have any questions about her ... Just visit her forum and you will find out what some feel 'real' Adventist should believe. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Not so...When the abortion is performed, the Dr. who performed it kills the baby, that is why it is called MURDER. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Originally Posted By: lazarus I believe that abortion is an unspeakable evil, yet I support Sen. Barack Obama, who is pro-choice. That says it all - unspeakable evil " is the price" that some are willing to pay. That get's us to Ellen White's own position on the value of human life -- and the fact that she viewed the unspeakable evils regarding that SAME issue in her day as too great a price to pay for political gain. in Christ, Bob How could it be any clearer? Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy OK, God has control over who He allows to live or die. My point is that it is ultimately up to God, not you or me or Satan. Not so... We are free moral agents. We can take our own life or we can take someone elses....rarely does God intervene. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 (By the way, the Adventist church's current position on abortion is more in line with Obama's than with McCain's, so anyone who votes for Obama can be assured that their church standing is safe.) Unfortunately, I have to agree with you here. It makes me so sad to say so, but it is the truth. The Church, as we know it today, is not the same Church it was in Ellen Whites day. It has gone far from the truth, in many areas, abortion is only one of them. It honestly makes me ashamed to be an Adventist today. If people ask me what I am, I tell them that I'm an old-fashioned Adventist, what they used to be, not what they are today. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 I personally believe a lot of people like having a litmus test, because then they don't have to think or be very informed on the issues. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tammy Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Originally Posted By: Tammy As Adventists, everything we believe, we should be able to support from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy. Please show me your support for abortion (killing babies)from the Bible and/or Spirit of Prophecy? Then maybe you should back off on the judgmental rhetoric, the official SDA church does not take your position, simply because there is a lack of exact Biblical counsel about abortion. It is left up to the individual and God. Lazaras position is inline with that of the church! I have a feeling you are going to tell me that 'real' SDA's agree with you?? Nothing new about that position on these forums, "agreeing with me is the 'right' way"...old stuff. No, REAL SDA's agree with the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy...and I happen to agree with them... You are right, the Church does not agree with them...but it isn't being a member of the Church that is going to save me...it is knowing and living the truth - it is THE TRUTH that sets us FREE, NOT the Church. Quote When the character of Christ shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, then He will come to claim them as His own. {COL 69} The Narrow Way Ministires 5464 State Road Kingsville, OH 44048 choose_the_narrow_way@yahoo.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 27, 2008 Share Posted October 27, 2008 Tamy, Here's the deal. Even if McCain wins, and even if he somehow miraculously overturns Roe vs. Wade. The issue then will go back to the local states. It will not solve abortion as long as people can travel. So, please explain to me, how would voting for Obama would be voting for death, and voting for McCain would be voting for life. It's a straw man argument. Of course the true Christians would stand on the side of life. But forcing government to criminalize the practice will not help to solve the problem. Pro-life and pro-choice are empty political slogans, just like pro-cutting taxes and pro-curbing the spending. Raegan was pro-life. Bush senior was pro-life, so was Bush Junior. For 20 out of the past 20 years, we've had pro-life candidates in office. Did they change anything? No! So, please explain to me... how would voting for a pro-life candidate would advance that cause. It would be like outlawing suicide. By the time the punishment comes... it is too late and it does not change what's done. Prevention is the key. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2008 Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 Quote: Would you support a White President who went to a church which has tenants that said they have a ..... 1. Commitment to the White Community 2. Commitment to the White Family 3. Adherence to the White Work Ethic. 4. Pledge to make the fruits of all developing and acquired skills available to the White Community . 5. Pledge to Allocate Regularly, a Portion of Personal Resources for Strengthening and Supporting White Institutions 6. Pledge allegiance to all White leadership who espouse and embrace the White Value System 7. Personal commitment to embracement of the White Value System." Tammy. I have to say ... This sounds racist to me. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2008 Tammy. I have to say ... This sounds racist to me. That's cos you don't fully understand the nature and history of racism. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 I think that I understand it better than you. I have a few more years of experience brother. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 27, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 27, 2008 I know you are but what am I? Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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