Socialist and proud of it!

[lazarus]

With all this crazy talk about how bad Socialism is I just want to let you know that I am a Christian and a Socialist.

[Dr. Shane]

Here I thought Jesus said His kingdom wasn't of this world. I guess my Bible is missing the pages that talk about Jesus being a socialist and a community organizer. Let me guess,,, Jesus was a Democrat too.

[fccool]

Jesus is not a socialist, He is a creator. The idea behind the socialism is to spread the wealth around by means of government FORCE. The same idea behind the communism.

What you have in acts 2 is a VOLUNTARY submission and donation. It's not forced, but leading by example.

Christianity is incompatible with earthly socialism... because earthly socialism is a form of theft, and it diminishes the reward for hard work.

Now, I know that there are many freeloders on the wallstreet who drive mazarattis from money earned on hype and manipulation. But they only can because people believe that there's money to be made in speculation.

That's why Jesus overturned the tables of moneychangers in the temple. These people robbed others, and considered it to be a service to other people and God.

Socialism is not the answer to crony capitalism. Consider the economy of heaven... building houses and no one will live in them but us... and growing vineyards for ourselves. Not to say that we will not share, but the idea is that of self sustaining life.

[BobRyan]

With all this crazy talk about how bad Socialism is I just want to let you know that I am a Christian and a Socialist.

How "unnexpected".

Russia is ALSO "Socialist and proud"

Though less so today than they were back when they more fully backed your model for government.

Nice going though -- I would hope that more people would come out of the closet as you have.

[BobRyan]

Jesus is not a socialist, He is a creator.

Socialism works well if the guy at the top is GOD!

Oh no wait -- Obama is supposed to be just such a super-being is he not? Isn't that what Farrahkahn said recently?

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/2008/10/021735.php

[lazarus]

Jesus is not a socialist, He is a creator. The idea behind the socialism is to spread the wealth around by means of government FORCE.

Lets look at this "speading the wealth around" idea. When you pay taxes your wealth is redistributed. Your taxes pay for education for poor kids, medicare, medicaid, etc. These people cannot afford to pay, you are paying. The government will force you to pay if you don't pay.

Quote:

Christianity is incompatible with earthly socialism... because earthly socialism is a form of theft, and it diminishes the reward for hard work.

Therefore you are in favor of removing medicare, medicaid, public education, special education programs etc.....

Quote:

Consider the economy of heaven... building houses and no one will live in them but us... and growing vineyards for ourselves. Not to say that we will not share, but the idea is that of self sustaining life.

Self-sustaining life......really...I though God is the one who sustains life.

Revelation talks about the tree of life and its leaves are for the healing of the nations. There's no mention of insurance or deductibles. Does everyone get equal coverage? Does God give everyone a tax credit as we receive (or is it rent) our golden crowns.

Where do the building materials come from? If I have 3 acres or 100 on the new earth where does it come from? Am I going to rent it, buy it?

[lazarus]

Socialism works well if the guy at the top is GOD!

Excellent point! You got it! Of course socialism does not work but neither does capitalism. It always best to combine the two!!

[fccool]

You need to dive in to update your history references. Russia is much less of a socialist country than US is today. Some years ago it even abandoned progressive taxation and instituted flat tax. It does not tax property, and Russian socialist party leaders are laughed at in DUMA.

So, please, check before making these statements.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Socialism works well if the guy at the top is GOD!

Excellent point! You got it! Of course socialism does not work but neither does capitalism. It always best to combine the two!!

The socialism will only work if it is voluntary. Think about the charity organizations, or Insurance. These are great examples of voluntary socialism.

[Woody]

I knew all along there was somethin wrong with Laz ... now we have the proof. But I still have to say Laz ... I am disappointed. I was hoping for better ...

[lazarus]

I knew all along there was somethin wrong with Laz ... now we have the proof. But I still have to say Laz ... I am disappointed. I was hoping for better ...

Red, I always want to make you proud of me.

Here's some more disappointment for you. My Obama bumper sticker (believers for Obama) a magnet, HOPE wristband, yard sign etc. have all arrived. They came on Sabbath!. I can now drive folks crazy... yeah!!!

[John317]

I completely agree with you, fccool.

[Taylor]

With all this crazy talk about how bad Socialism is I just want to let you know that I am a Christian and a Socialist.

This is what Chavez in Venezuela constantly says is that his government is blessed by God because Jesus was a socialist and that is why he is one as well. Have you ever been to Venezuela? Let me tell you, while there are good things there (i.e. he has improved the roads, school buildings etc.) , you would never want to live under a regime that takes away businesses from private business people so they can belong to the government, you wouldn't want to live in an environment where you have to get permission to do "everything" . You would not want to live in an enviornment where they are trying to take over all schools and churches so that the governmetn is incharge of their spending and their hiring practices...and to make sure socialism is taught in those venues (So far they don't have controll of the churches but there is a proposal in government to do so and the locals all say it is only a matter of time, unless God intervenes and although many schools have been taken over, so far the Adventist schools have been allowed to function, praise the Lord!)

Have you ever been to Nicaragua where the price of everything including food has gone up 3-5 times since the socialist government came into being?. If you agree to 'belong to the party" and be a socialist then your food is "made available to you" for just 2 times the price of a year ago, but the quality isn't the greatest and you have to wait in line for hours. Where an average person (say things like hotel workers, waiters etc) only earn around $4.00 a day but gasoline is close to $4.00 a gallon.

Socialism with God at the top may work but with man at the top it only means one thing...not "helping the poor" nearly as much as it benefits the greedy few at the top who are in controll of the government.

Trust me, the good does not outweigh the bad in such a system, when run by humans.

[John317]

Laz, I respect your opinions about these things because I know your heart is in the right place and that you are motivated by Christian values and ideals, but the real world of communism and socialism is something completely different from what you're in favor of. I had to get out of those activities and movements when I became a Seventh-day Adventist. For one thing, we were heavily involved in increasing the power of the unions and opposed to workers crossing union lines. The whole organization was atheistic and opposed to Christianity, although they would never come out and tell sympathetic Christians their true stand on religion. Communism is based on dialectical materialism, which is completely opposed to any belief in God, at least any God who affects the way the world is today.

Trotsky said, "I am a dialectical materialist and therefore a militant atheist."

There's a reason why you won't find a Christian communist party or organization in the United States. Virtually all of the socialist and communist parties in the United States are of the revolutionary type rather than the reformist kind. They're not opposed to using force and violence to get what they want if they believe it will benefit their cause.

Here's Chavez's view:

“ Capitalism is the way of the devil and exploitation. If you really want to look at things through the eyes of Jesus Christ – who I think was the first socialist – only socialism can really create a genuine society. ”

—Hugo Chávez

“ He [Jesus] accompanied me in difficult times, in crucial moments. So Jesus Christ is no doubt a historical figure— he was someone who rebelled, an anti-imperialist guy. He confronted the Roman Empire. Because who might think that Jesus was a capitalist? No. Judas was the capitalist, for taking the coins! Christ was a revolutionary. He confronted the religious hierarchies. He confronted the economic power of the time. He preferred death in the defense of his humanistic ideals, who fostered change. He is our Jesus Christ. ”

—Hugo Chávez

[fccool]

Now, now Taylor. For capitalism to work, it has to be honest. Today we don't have pure and honest capitalism. What we have today is monetarism... or getting rich by currency and market manipulation, with people have little choice but to participate. So we have people who can buy out the natural resources that should belong to people (like oil and water)... these resources are being privatized by the governments and sold very cheap. The same goes for the social infrastructure that was built by means of taxpayers money. These don't belong to government to privatize, or for corporations to buy. Yes, private businesses could be hired to service and maintain these... but this is not what is happening around the globe.

The people in those countries do not benefit from such privatization. Since Chavez became the president, the gas prices in Venezuela dropped to .12 cents per gallon! The oil should not belong to private interests... just like you can't sell air, sunlight or sea water. But what has been happening in these countries is a corporate takeover of natural resources by means of corrupt governments selling the resources for pennies.

That is the reason that people like Chavez resort to socializing NATURAL RESOURCES. Because these should not belong to private corporations.

Consider what happened in Bolivia. Corporations bought water from the government and they jacked the prices up. People of course would not have it. Water does not belong to the corporations. Yes, they can charge for SERVICE, but not water.

Socialism was a result of abusive capitalism. Otherwise Marx and Lenin would have stood alone. They were partly right that certain mega rich people in competition with each other would neglect the basic needs of the workers, as working conditions were deteriorating. Thus people who made the wealth, benefited disproportionally and had a choice between slave labor or starvation... because monetarism economy did not give other alternatives.

YET. the solution is not dictatorship by government of who should own how much. The solution is education and knowledge. People only have power because we give it to them. If the workers refused to work for a factory, it would have to raise the wages or suffer the consequences.

The solutions have to come from bottom up, and not from up down. Yet I think that the role of the government is to seek the interests of the people, and not interest of corporate competition. Certain types of privatization is inherently immoral IMO. Give it an inch and we will have to pay for breathing air in near future.

[fccool]

John,

What Chavez referring to is the monopoly capitalism, which comes about through manipulating governments and money supply. He is partly correct. Jesus did confront the currency monopolists in a quite violent manner.

Yet in our corporate society today, the actions of temple money changers would hardly be considered immoral. Why? Because we have wrong idea of capitalism. We have Machiavellian Capitalism, or get rich by any means necessary.

I've spoken to some of the people like that, and you would not believe the reasons they give to justify their actions.

For many corporations, breaking the law is a cost of running business. That's one of the reasons Clearwater held on to Howard Stern for so long while simply paying the FCC fines. As long as the profits outnumber the fines... all is good.

[John317]

Yes, of course capitalism has its problems and Jesus' teachings are opposed to selfishness and greed, but the question is whether Jesus' teachings and Seventh-day Adventist beliefs can be harmonized with the socialist and communist organizations.

There are lots of people who become attracted to socialism and even to communism because of the ideals of Christianity. They see those movements as positive because the movements claim to want some of the same things that Christians dream of, such as social justice, elimination of poverty, realizing the brotherhood of man, etc.

But as many realize after they join those movements, those ideals are just window dressing and ways for the organizations to exploit their followers. There is far more going on beneath the surface than working toward social justice and the elimination of poverty.

[Woody]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

I knew all along there was somethin wrong with Laz ... now we have the proof. But I still have to say Laz ... I am disappointed. I was hoping for better ...

Red, I always want to make you proud of me.

Here's some more disappointment for you. My Obama bumper sticker (believers for Obama) a magnet, HOPE wristband, yard sign etc. have all arrived. They came on Sabbath!. I can now drive folks crazy... yeah!!!

My front yard is already full of yard signs for all the republican candidates ... and oh course the McCain/Palin sign is the most prominent.

[fccool]

If you go by absolute, all or nothing, no compromises, reasoning ... then absolutely no. BUT, that "no" would likewise has to be uttered in a perfect world to which such standards call.

If you had a $1 billion dollars. Who would you give these money, to people who are starving and can't afford education and shelter. Or to people who have everything they possibly need? What would Jesus do?

Consider the command: "Sell everything you own to the poor and follow me." This is essentially a voluntary socialism call. I think that it's quite obvious that the ideal is to share the wealth by means of compassion... yet we are talking about regenerated minds that would want to do that.

The socialism ideas do not come out of abundance. Most of the people are not in competition with each other for bigger houses and better way of life. Most of the people just want to live at certain comfort level.

Now, in the world where 1% of population owns 40% of wealth, it's quite astonishing in light of 30k children dying per day from starvation. The flaw behind both systems is because they reduce human to either a producer, worker, or a consumer. Both system lack the humanity factor.

That's the reason Chavez is doing what he is doing, because he holds the interest of the people to be paramount. I think I as adventist can reconcile that with my beliefs. Notice that in this case, Chavez is not a Robin Hood. He is not stealing anything from anyone. He is simply protecting the interest of the people who would suffer from privatization... and that would be the great majority of Venezuelans.

The problem with Americans is that they view the world from their perspective. They don't consider what it's like being in shoes of Indonesian sweat shop worker, or African farmer. In their mind, the capitalism works because they see it working here. They don't understand what is going on under the hood of local and foreign economies. That's why any discussion of harmonization is irrelevant, unless you understand why people like Castro and Chavez are still ruling today... because people were tired of being exploited and dehumanized. For these people, the Socialism and Communism is lesser evil than IMF capitalism that prints money and demands to pay back in labor and natural resources.

The people who were fed up with Soviets, just said "no more" and went their own way.

Yet, if you consider the "Socialist" China today... they are more Capitalist in many cases than US is. They way of life is savings based and they are not ripping other countries off by printing money and demand to pay back in resources. That's why they will come out on top when the crisis really surfaces in next few months.

[John317]

As I see it, the main question for us at this time in our history is not whether capitalism is perfect or whether there are extremely poor people in other places that may want socialism or communism, but whether Americans want to change our nation and our economic structure and values in a major way. Do we want our political leaders and our government in the business of redistributing the wealth of its citizens? It's happening because of a financial crisis. This shows what will happen when the REAL financial crisis happens. The current crisis is a warning of what changes can occur when people feel under pressure. We're told that when that time comes, our nation will repudiate our republican form of government. Remember that we know the movement to make this change will look wonderful. It will seem as if only enemies of mankind could be opposed to the changes.

[fccool]

John,

All would be well, but socialism in US is not something that just happened. If you remember the "new Deal", that's what we should be criticizing... I.E. taxing property, having progressive income tax, social security and Medicare, and taking out huge debts on behalf of people to finance the projects. Yet we end up labeling Obama a "socialits" for 4% tax difference on income???? Give me a break! People in US are paying 52% of taxes and fees when all is said and done, just to keep the system wheels turning.

So, when you have someone like McCain crying socialist, and then turning around and giving near a trillion to bankers and promising to preserve "American dream" by propping up the housing market and buying the mortgages of people who made terrible decisions, by means of taxing people who saved.... that's sheer hypocrisy. That's as Tom Brokaw pointed out is Socialism at its core.

McCain chalked it all up to economic crisis and that government can step in and solve the crisis... but what if such crisis runs for years. Do you think that another "New Deal" from government is fair? Do you think it was fair to confiscate all of the gold from Americans? What will it be next?

If you can't stand up by your principle in times of crises, then what good are these principles? As one wise man said, "Those who trade liberty in exchange for security, deserve neither".

[John317]

John,

All would be well, but socialism in US is not something that just happened. If you remember the "new Deal", that's what we should be criticizing...

McCain chalked it all up to economic crisis and that government can step in and solve the crisis... but what if such crisis runs for years. Do you think that another "New Deal" from government is fair? Do you think it was fair to confiscate all of the gold from Americans? What will it be next?

If you can't stand up by your principle in times of crises, then what good are these principles? As one wise man said, "Those who trade liberty in exchange for security, deserve neither".

Agree with all that, but Americans have a clear choice nevertheless.

[fccool]

Can you elaborate on that?

[John317]

Yeah, I mean that there is a clear difference between McCain's/Palins policies and Obama's. It is kind of like the differences between Goldwater and LBJ and between Carter and Reagan. I voted for Carter when he ran against Ford, but I voted for Reagan against Carter in 1980.

[Taylor]

The problem isn't nearly so much that Chavez has taken over the "oil companies" he has taken over "private businesses" that have nothing to do with oil. That's the problem. It is far more reaching than "oil" it has to do with things like privately owned cement companies and many others that are smaller businesses.