Moderators lazarus Posted October 29, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2008 Laz, I respect your opinions about these things because I know your heart is in the right place and that you are motivated by Christian values and ideals, but the real world of communism and socialism is something completely different from what you're in favor of. Well.... I didn't say I was a communist or in favor of Soviet or even South American style of socialism. There is a lot of hysteria about the word "socialist". In Europe the notion of being a Christian socialist is quite acceptable. In fact Tony Blair is a member of the Christian Socialist Movement and so is the current Prime Minister Gordon Brown. John, you don't know what I am in favor of as regards to socialism. I'm certainly in favor of universal health care. I'm certainly in favor of higher taxes to support that. I guess you might say that Gordon Brown and Tony Blair don't know what their in favor of either. Come on John!!! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: John317 Laz, I respect your opinions about these things because I know your heart is in the right place and that you are motivated by Christian values and ideals, but the real world of communism and socialism is something completely different from what you're in favor of. Well.... I didn't say I was a communist or in favor of Soviet or even South American style of socialism. There is a lot of hysteria about the word "socialist". In Europe the notion of being a Christian socialist is quite acceptable. In fact Tony Blair is a member of the Christian Socialist Movement and so is the current Prime Minister Gordon Brown. John, you don't know what I am in favor of as regards to socialism. I'm certainly in favor of universal health care. I'm certainly in favor of higher taxes to support that. I guess you might say that Gordon Brown and Tony Blair don't know what their in favor of either. Come on John!!! I'm assuming you are in favor of the things that are in harmony with Christian values such as social justice and elimination of poverty. Those are the sorts of things I was referring to. But when you get to real socialism and communism, it is a lot different from those ideals. You get a lot of things you don't want. As for the Christian socialism of Blair and Brown, that is in England, not in the USA. If you look around for Christian socialists here, they are very scarce. I don't know of any significant organization made up of Christian socialists in this country. The vast majority of socialists and communists in this country are not reformists but are revolutionary. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Could you elaborate on that too? here's comparison between Obama's tax proposals and McCain's tax proposals: Income Avg. tax bill Avg. tax bill Over $2.9M -$269,364 +$701,885 $603K and up -$45,361 +$115,974 $227K-$603K -$7,871 +$12 $161K-$227K -$4,380 -$2,789 $112K-$161K -$2,614 -$2,204 $66K-$112K -$1,009 -$1,290 $38K-$66K -$319 -$1,042 $19K-$38K -$113 -$892 Under $19K -$19 -$567 Could you please explain to me how can a country with near half of trillion of payments on debt service can afford tax cuts that McCain is promising? He leaves that part out, yet what will he cut from to balance budgets and still get the revenues desired? Where will that money come from? You see, Obama taxes people rich now, McCain's plan will borrow from my yet to be born children. Both are socialism. Only one hides behind deficit spending, and the other one is in your face. If you ask me, I don't like either. Unfortunately, the only other choice left is not voting, and I with my wife choose not to vote for half-right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 29, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2008 I don't know of any significant organization made up of Christian socialists in this country. I think there are many Christian socialists in the Democratic party but they won't describe themselves as such because Americans are afraid of and misunderstand the word socialism. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 The problem isn't nearly so much that Chavez has taken over the "oil companies" he has taken over "private businesses" that have nothing to do with oil. That's the problem. It is far more reaching than "oil" it has to do with things like privately owned cement companies and many others that are smaller businesses. Taylor, all Chavez had to do is to forbid the foreign cement companies to mine the cement. What do you think they would do? I'm not defending Chavez, but I certainly understand where he is coming from. Venezuela is as rich in natural resources as any country, yet due to the past monetary policies towards the country it is considered to be the third world country today. Chavez seeks to improve the local economy by discouraging the foreign corporations to build shops in the country. We have similar thing in US and it is called eminent domain. If government thinks that taking down your property will benefit the city/state/country... it has legal right to do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted October 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2008 I would agree with that, Laz. I used to be one myself, so I understand it. I'm not putting people down for being socialists. I am just saying that I don't want to see America go that way, but if Americans choose a candidate who will lead us in that direction, they need to know upfront what they are voting for and what they will be getting. That is why I am in favor of the media discussing and debating these issues more openly and widely. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted October 29, 2008 Moderators Share Posted October 29, 2008 I've posed this challenge before, but never really got a rsponse. Those on the Right here have repeatedly said that government-mandated and forced redistribution of wealth is immoral, and that what should happen is voluntary charity. But to me the test of any belief system is 'does it work?' So, does it? Are we seeing the elimination of poverty through the charitable work of those on the Right politically? Clearly not - rather, we're seeing a rapidly expanding difference in wealth between the richest and the poorest. So either (a) those on the Right need to step up to the plate and *really* start to voluntarily give to transform society or ( those on the Right need to recognise that human nature means that sometimes some intervention is needed in order to make society more equitable or © those on the Right need to just admit that they really believe the wealthy deserve their wealth and to keep getting richer, and that the poor deserve their poverty. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aldona Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I've posed this challenge before, but never really got a rsponse. Those on the Right here have repeatedly said that government-mandated and forced redistribution of wealth is immoral, and that what should happen is voluntary charity. But to me the test of any belief system is 'does it work?' So, does it? Are we seeing the elimination of poverty through the charitable work of those on the Right politically? Clearly not - rather, we're seeing a rapidly expanding difference in wealth between the richest and the poorest. So either (a) those on the Right need to step up to the plate and *really* start to voluntarily give to transform society or ( those on the Right need to recognise that human nature means that sometimes some intervention is needed in order to make society more equitable or © those on the Right need to just admit that they really believe the wealthy deserve their wealth and to keep getting richer, and that the poor deserve their poverty. Agree with the above. I can just picture the scene if Jesus was on earth today: Jesus: Whoever has two coats should give one to his neighbor who has none. 21st Century American Christians: That's socialism! Forced wealth redistribution! It will never work. It has to be voluntary. You can't tell us what to do with our money/ belongings! (Some of us come from parts of the world where "socialist" is not automatically a dirty word.) aldona Quote www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne)Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each monthIMSLP/Petrucci Music LibraryThe Public Domain Music Score Library - Free Sheet Music DownloadsLooking for classical sheet music? Try IMSLP first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Jesus never forced anyone to redistribute wealth. He simply made an appeal. Neither did the early church forced anyone to sell their property before they joined in. People simply accepted it as a better way to go. If you accept it as better way to go, then put some money on that . I can see the riot going on in church if we get the message from above : "Sell everything, give it to the poor and follow me". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 I've posed this challenge before, but never really got a rsponse. Those on the Right here have repeatedly said that government-mandated and forced redistribution of wealth is immoral, and that what should happen is voluntary charity. But to me the test of any belief system is 'does it work?' So, does it? Are we seeing the elimination of poverty through the charitable work of those on the Right politically? Clearly not - rather, we're seeing a rapidly expanding difference in wealth between the richest and the poorest. So either (a) those on the Right need to step up to the plate and *really* start to voluntarily give to transform society or ( those on the Right need to recognise that human nature means that sometimes some intervention is needed in order to make society more equitable or © those on the Right need to just admit that they really believe the wealthy deserve their wealth and to keep getting richer, and that the poor deserve their poverty. That's a valid point, and that's why I believe Obama will take this election. The capitalism does not work in this country, not because capitalism does not work, but because we don't have capitalism. In 1773, we had capitalism, and people were willing to defend it. Today we don't have any left. What we have is just debt passing from person to person. It's pathetic, the companies have to borrow money to pay their workers. That's what we see as a normal way of business today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: lazarus Red' date=' I always want to make you proud of me. Here's some more disappointment for you. My Obama bumper sticker (believers for Obama) a magnet, HOPE wristband, yard sign etc. have all arrived. They came on Sabbath!. I can now drive folks crazy... yeah!!! [/quote'] My front yard is already full of yard signs for all the republican candidates ... and oh course the McCain/Palin sign is the most prominent. Is this so that it covers up the poppies in the front yard? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Originally Posted By: Taylor The problem isn't nearly so much that Chavez has taken over the "oil companies" he has taken over "private businesses" that have nothing to do with oil. That's the problem. It is far more reaching than "oil" it has to do with things like privately owned cement companies and many others that are smaller businesses. Taylor, all Chavez had to do is to forbid the foreign cement companies to mine the cement. What do you think they would do? I'm not defending Chavez, but I certainly understand where he is coming from. Venezuela is as rich in natural resources as any country, yet due to the past monetary policies towards the country it is considered to be the third world country today. Chavez seeks to improve the local economy by discouraging the foreign corporations to build shops in the country. We have similar thing in US and it is called eminent domain. If government thinks that taking down your property will benefit the city/state/country... it has legal right to do that. I guess I am not explaining it right. I am not talking about foreign companies, I am talking about taking over of Venezuelan, privately owned companies, some of which are very small and certainly have nothing to do with "natural resources" etc. On top of that small businesses are going out of business becuase such basic things as Soap, oats, salt, oil have gone up so much that no one can buy it for the prices the stores have to sell it and furthermore a lot of the time the stores can't get their hands on these things for any price to sell it. There are entire sections of the country where you can't find milk, either fresh or in powder form, and before it was easy to purchase. I am not an authority on this topic, I just know about some of it first hand. Like I said, Chavez has done some incredibly good things for his country, but I don't think that those good things include the above problems. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted October 29, 2008 Share Posted October 29, 2008 Jesus never forced anyone to redistribute wealth. He simply made an appeal. Neither did the early church forced anyone to sell their property before they joined in. People simply accepted it as a better way to go. If you accept it as better way to go, then put some money on that . I can see the riot going on in church if we get the message from above : "Sell everything, give it to the poor and follow me". Precisely but that is the difference with Jesus at the head instead of a human. He inspired change and equality. Humans often use brutal force. No it isn't right that there are poor people who work their heads off and never get anything while the rich get richer but becuase of sin in this world, nothing is ever fair. I think we should work on inspiring people to have a conscience, to have a soul, to think of others more than themselves but forcing people to be "generous" rarely works. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I with my wife choose not to vote for half-right. Why don't you vote for a 3rd party candidate instead of not voting at all? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am talking about taking over of Venezuelan, privately owned companies, some of which are very small and certainly have nothing to do with "natural resources" etc. On top of that small businesses are going out of business becuase such basic things as Soap, oats, salt, oil have gone up so much that no one can buy it for the prices the stores have to sell it and furthermore a lot of the time the stores can't get their hands on these things for any price to sell it. There are entire sections of the country where you can't find milk, either fresh or in powder form, and before it was easy to purchase. Is that because of Chavez caused it directly, or is it because of other countries refusing to trade with Venezuela because he is not their puppet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Originally Posted By: fccool I with my wife choose not to vote for half-right. Why don't you vote for a 3rd party candidate instead of not voting at all? Let's see. How shall I put it. It would do as much difference as me banging my head on the wall in the solitude of my apartment bathroom. The people only have power if we give it to them... I choose not to give power to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Let's see. How shall I put it. It would do as much difference as me banging my head on the wall in the solitude of my apartment bathroom. The people only have power if we give it to them... I choose not to give power to some people. By not voting, you then do not care who is in power, and you don't care what happens and you can not complain about what anyone leader does....Such is the life of one who does not vote.... However, if one does vote, he is allowed to complain....He is allowed to talk to his leader that he voted in and voice a different idea. He is allowed to not accept status quo. He is allowed to vote for change. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Quote: However, if one does vote, he is allowed to complain.... I'm going to remember this one after the election. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Complain...I have no problem with that... make up stories, or pass on made up/fictious stories....that is a whole different animal.... They be under the heading of 'Lies, and liars who tell lies"....PLease don't fall into this catagory.. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am good at complaining. So ... if need be ... I can resort to this. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Don't worry. I don't plan on being a sore winner. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Don't worry. I don't plan on being a sore winner. I hope you ran that last sentence thru spell check....I don't want to hear the "whinner" complex... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I don't drink wine. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Â Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I don't drink wine. And with all the cheesy whinning that you were doing, I was SURE that you did....And along with some of the cracked up arguments, I felt sure that a snack of cheese and crackers were sure to make a good side dish conversational piece among your main whining argument... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 I am sorry, CoAspen, if you were offended by me and Redwood's banter... Yes, we are on opposite sides of the political spectrum, but we also care about human beings...We seem to understand that about each other... As a result, the "mud-slinging" is in reality for us, a way to tease and get under each other's skin, good naturedly... He accuses me of being a closet conservative...and I accuse him of being a closet liberal. And most of my posts are mock accusations of extreem Ubber conservative-ism republicanism... My appologies if there were small rocks in the mud-slinging... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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