Woody Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Quote: and Redwood's banter Hey ... Don't include me in with your blabbering. I was being coherant. You were babbling. Okay ... on the serious side just for a moment. For those on the outside that don't know us ... it might appear that we are fighting. When in reality ... we are just havin fun. I suppose we ought to be more careful and perhaps give a disclaimer. But, I respect what CoA has said. However ... I can only take so much 'serious' discussion of politics. I have to lighten it up. And yes ... most of my political discussions ARE light and NOT serious. OR only slightly serious. I think we have to lighten it up. The point that Neil and I are strong on is that it is OKAY for each of us to disagree. It is OKAY for us to make light of a serious subject. Actually ... I don't find that anyone is going to be changed by a serious discussion of poltics. Most have their mind made up and simply want to promote THEIR side. And we are blind or ignore the 'truth' often. For ... HOW in the WORLD can we REALLY know what is 'truth' in a worldly arena such as politics. I respect people on both sides. I could easily be on either side. They both have merit for a Christian. I am NOT one that believes you have to be on one side in order to be an SDA. Okay ... enough seriousness. Back to Banter. I enjoy that much more. But please ... just don't hold me to my serious words. Neil? Where are you? Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 30, 2008 Share Posted October 30, 2008 Why don't you vote for a 3rd party candidate instead of not voting at all? Let's see. How shall I put it. It would do as much difference as me banging my head on the wall in the solitude of my apartment bathroom. The people only have power if we give it to them... I choose not to give power to some people. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I don't get it. Are you saying if I vote for Obama or Barr in Texas that I might as well bang my head on the wall? (Redwood, no need to insert any comments that might come to mind here...) Realistically, only McCain or Obama will be the president. Vote for a third party is just a statement... " I don't like either one of these candidates". Yet to me it's the same statement as, "I don't like either one, therefore I'm not voting". Look. There's much hype going on about voting and elections. Do you know that Saddam Hussein was a democratically elected leader? Same goes for China, people get to elect the leader who will dictate his will for the next few years. Democracy is a sham. It does not work out so well for the 49.9%. Even given an electoral college, the things do not change in light of the 2 party system, where the grassroots candidates don't have any say in the media. How many total speeches have you heard from Ralf Nader this year? The system is set up to maintain the status quo, and thus it is flawed. The two party system today pretty much maintains a political monopoly today. Both of them figured out the "campaign formula" and they are sticking to it, and sticking it to the people. On top of that, I apologize if I sound insulting in any way, American people (or much of the world population in any case) are not informed enough to make a good and educated decision. If they were informed, then there would be revolution tomorrow morning. They have no idea where the country is heading, and frankly... many don't care... as long as they have a job and a few simple pleasures to escape the dullness of life. It's an unfortunate reality, but people today have no idea what they stand for, and why they are making this choice. That's why most will be deceived in the end. People who vote for the sake of "fulfillment of the citizen duty" are basically saying.... I don't know what I'm doing, but I'll do it anyway in show of solidarity and support. I've already been through this in the Soviet system, and I'm not going through these motions again. The people at the top only have power if you give it to them. The moment you don't come to their rallies, they will be just like the regular people, who have to find a real job... and not pretend that they are doing something useful by running around trying to improve our way of life. Think about the following statement. People don't start wars, they only start revolutions. Politicians start wars, and they need the ordinary people to fight in them to protect the "ideals". And ordinary people don't even realize that the people who they are fighting against, perhaps have the same ideas and ideals as us. You know... family, friends, hard work, justice... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I would go a bit further to say that the two major parties cooperate with each other to keep all others out of their monopoly. Both parties are also beholden to their corporate sponsors, so they really are two sides of the same coin. But I still believe that a vote for a 3rd party candidate is not a waste. You said it is making a statement, but that's not a bad thing. It isn't necessarily saying, "I don't like any of the above." It can be saying "This is the candidate who most reflects my views." And the more people who vote for a candidate, the more of their policies will make it to the mainstream. So I don't see it as a waste at all. I would *especially* encourage people who wouldn't vote otherwise, to consider a 3rd party candidate rather than not vote at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taylor Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The only reason it would be a waste is that there is no chance of a third party candidate winning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Toni Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 I'll sit on that bench with you. :-) Quote Toni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted October 31, 2008 Author Moderators Share Posted October 31, 2008 I'll sit on that bench with you. :-) Appreciate the company Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted October 31, 2008 Share Posted October 31, 2008 The only reason it would be a waste is that there is no chance of a third party candidate winning. Obviously, there is little to no chance a 3rd party candidate is going to win. But that doesn't mean it is a wasted vote. It is a statement. If you don't speak up, then don't expect things to change. I know it can seem like banging your head against the wall, but the more people who vote for a 3rd party candidate, the more of that candidate's policies will make it to the mainstream. I see it as powerful, rather than a waste. Personally, I think we need more people to thumb their nose at the system and say they're sick of the corruption on both sides and aren't going to vote for either one of their puppets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Seems like I've read somewhere that pride is not a good thing... Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Originally Posted By: Taylor The only reason it would be a waste is that there is no chance of a third party candidate winning. Obviously, there is little to no chance a 3rd party candidate is going to win. But that doesn't mean it is a wasted vote. It is a statement. If you don't speak up, then don't expect things to change. I know it can seem like banging your head against the wall, but the more people who vote for a 3rd party candidate, the more of that candidate's policies will make it to the mainstream. I see it as powerful, rather than a waste. Personally, I think we need more people to thumb their nose at the system and say they're sick of the corruption on both sides and aren't going to vote for either one of their puppets. The other day I was driving home, and there were protesters with "Honk for peace" signs. Do people really believe that car horns have some sort of magical attributes? That's what I call bumper-sticker activism. You know, the one that does not require any sacrifices apart from doing something simple, like pushing a button, or donating a dollar or five. It's a great sacrifice. The issue at hand is similar to "Honk for peace" for the same reasons. In the end, it's just a sign of support. It does not change or protest anything in reality. Why is that such a great country which is full of extremely intelligent,talented and able people is reduced to "Honkers for peace"? There was a guy in 1800s named Henry Theroua. He stated that you don't have to participate in injustice, but many do so voluntarily. He once refused to pay a very minimal tax because he believed it would be his contribution to the cause of Slavery and a War that he did not support. He went to jail for a day, and did not protest it. Now, I remember in the middle school we've had a really mean teacher. One day much of the class could not take it anymore, and we just did not show up for a class. 95% of us... The next class we did show up, to see if it worked. The teacher threatened to fail us and began calling us names. We stood up and walked out. And did not come back for the next two classes. The principal did not even call our parents. They just assigned a different teacher who was much nicer. So, if we, bunch of 10 year olds in Soviet School system could do that, don't you think that Americans throw around much more power? I don't think people realize that they give power to the governments. Many people here protest abortion, but if a million of them came together and stated that abortion is morally wrong, and they refuse to pay their taxes to support it until something is done. Do you think government will not listen? Do you think 1 million of them would be jailed? I don't think so. Now only that, it would set a precedent for government to be concerned. I'm all for statements, but pressing a button is not a statement. It's just playing along in the system that singles out dissidents. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 But isn't that what I'm talking about - people coming together to vote for a 3rd party candidate instead of opting out of the system? What good does not voting do? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 Usually, change takes longer than we would like. I think Ralph Nader and Ron Paul have made a tremendous difference in our country, albeit slowly, even though they have never won an election. But the machine is turning. If no one stands up or joins in (or votes), nothing will change. I do think you're right that activism in the U.S. is mostly pretty pathetic. It pales in comparison to what our forefathers sacrificed to fight for what they felt was right. People are too afraid of getting arrested or whatever negative consequences there may be. Our lives are too cozy, and we don't want to do anything to mess it up. So we sign petitions and hold signs. But, hey, I think it IS something, at least, and better than doing nothing. I don't think those things are a waste of time at all. The more people are made aware of things, the more things will change, slowly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 My brain is really working now. Maybe how rapidly change occurs is directly related to what we are willing to put into it. Maybe change would happen faster if we were willing to sacrifice more to make it happen. Like, if we were willing to walk out of class, en masse, we would have a new teacher before the week was out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 "To thy own self be true"... Non voting is my way of being true to myself. I think way too many people rely on "savior" politics, like Obama or McCain. Let's be honest, from here it will only be downhill. Like you've said, the system was set up to be such that it evades the responsibility. So, instead of a radical change, there's this constant switch going on from Republicans to Democrats and back... it obviously taking us nowhere. Now, about the third party statement. A little experiment, go out to the crowded mall and scream once, but loudly "Stop shopping and save!". Sure it'll make a lusting impression on people, but not an impression that you'd like to have. Likewise, when you vote for third party, the bipartisan will not understand you... the news media certainly will not. I have many McCain supporter friends and they are screaming bloody murder at anyone who is supporting Obama. You should really see it. I try to explain to them why Christians would want to vote for Obama, and they turn around and yell at me. We are pretty close to the point when my "Christian friends" will be throwing me in jail because I do take a certain stand on issues... and it's sad to contemplate. I'm not saying that voting third party is wrong per se. I work in media, and I've talked to several directors who said they are sick and tired of both parties and they will do the same... vote the third one in protest. Yet, it's not much of a protest, like I've pointed out. Sure, not voting is likewise is not much of a protest, but It does not mean that not voting is the only thing that I do. I'm doing a documentary right now. I talk in front of and to my church and friends about these issues. I certainly believe that education is the best thing to go about it, and at this point it's our responsibility to do so. Fixing things by way of political "morality" is a bit too late. I believe we are months away from pile of bad things hitting the fan. You could not really make the stuff up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 1, 2008 Share Posted November 1, 2008 I totally agree with your last paragraph. I think the thing that gets me excited is thinking about the reaction if a 3rd party candidate won even one state. I think Ron Paul is probably right, that the 2 major parties are too much in cahoots to let that happen, but just the idea that it could is exciting to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Never happen. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted November 2, 2008 Share Posted November 2, 2008 Probably not this year, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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