Regarding 100%

[Woody]

When I gave my heart to the Lord ... I gave 100%.

But then sin and temptation came along.

With that ... the percentage dropped in regard to my commitment. I guess it dropped to 85%.

I knew that if I continued to have the 100% desire and commitment ... that I would never sin. That was my goal. I was determined.

But even after the 85% came along. I was still determined. But then came another difficult temptation. So ... my commitment dropped to 75%.

Did I love Jesus any less? NO. I loved Him 100%. But my commitment kept dropping even though I wanted it to stay at 100%.

Now ... my question is ... does our salvation require that 100% that I desired? If it requires 100% ... that would mean that I would never sin.

Or ... are we like a yo-yo ... being saved when we don't sin and then not being saved when our percentage is below 100%?

I hope you can follow all this. But I have to reject the yo-yo religion. My desire is to be 100% committed to God. But when I fall below that ... I have the assurance that I am saved despite my drop in the percentage. My salvation is based upon the perfect percentage of Christ ... not mine.

Your thoughts ....

[phkrause]

I would first say redwood that sin and temptation were there before you gave your life to Jesus, but maybe I'm wrong!. I'm not sure that I follow your ramblings (hahaha). I do believe that we have our ups and downs in our christian journey. I'm not sure I understand your percentage system. I would say that our commitment is always 100%.

pk

[Woody]

Thanks PK ... you are right ... this one is not one of my better ramblings lol. But it does seem that you were able to get something out of it. Perhaps my analogy is wrong. You may be right that we are 100% committed but our works fail due to temptation.

But, I was going on the basis that if our commitment was 100% ... How could we sin? To me if we are 100% committed we will not sin.

Am I wrong?

[phkrause]

I believe that we can sin in what we say, do and think. I know that you have said on many occasions that we sin intentionally. I don't want to step on your toes or anything like that, but I have to say that I believe that we sin unintentionally in what we say, do and think. I personally don't believe that we win intentionally, that is most of us. I do believe that criminals sin intentionally. Like if you plan on robbing a bank, plan on killing someone, etc. But how about that person that is driving a car and gets into an accident and winds up killing someone. We know that the commandment says "Thou shalt not Murder". So in one respect we have sinned by killing that person But we have sinned unintentionally. So I believe that we do sin unintentionally. That's why we have that mediator that we can pray and ask forgiveness of our sins. I'm not sure that I'm making any sense for you or not.

pk

[Woody]

Hey ... I am not the only one who can ramble ... ha ha!! (just giving you a bad time). Seriously, I don't really mean to say we sin intentionally in the sense that you think. I am just saying that we make a choice due to temptation. We can access all the power of heaven that is at our disposal ... to NOT sin. We have that choice. When we don't access His power ... we sin. This is willful. But it is also due to our nature and the fact that we live in a sinful world with Satan roaming around. No. It is not willful in the sense that due to our commitment ... we don't desire to sin. But due to temptation we do choose sin.

(Just more ramblings ... I know.)

[Woody]

Yes. Good thoughts. Thanks dgrimm60

[Gerr]

When I gave my heart to the Lord ... I gave 100%.

But then sin and temptation came along.

With that ... the percentage dropped in regard to my commitment. I guess it dropped to 85%.

I knew that if I continued to have the 100% desire and commitment ... that I would never sin. That was my goal. I was determined.

But even after the 85% came along. I was still determined. But then came another difficult temptation. So ... my commitment dropped to 75%.

Did I love Jesus any less? NO. I loved Him 100%. But my commitment kept dropping even though I wanted it to stay at 100%.

Now ... my question is ... does our salvation require that 100% that I desired? If it requires 100% ... that would mean that I would never sin.

I believe Jesus made it clear that salvation requires 100% commitment. He said that no man can serve two masters. No one can be 85% the Lord's and 15% the devil's.

I also believe that your last sentence above, i.e. "If it requires 100% ... that would mean that I would never sin," is erroneous. One can have 100% commitment and still make mistakes, commit inadvertent, unpremeditated sins. As believers continue to run the Christian race, their commitment should not diminish but each day, the 100% commitment should become a more firm 100% each day.

Now I realize that the life of each Christian is not a straight upward line. The Christian life is a battle and a march. Sometimes the Christian takes 2 steps forward and 1 step back. Sometimes it may even be 1 step forward and 3 steps back. But, like a graft, it is easier to dislodge a graft early on. But with time, as the graft takes in the nourishment of the host tree, it becomes more firmly established until it becomes just as much a part of the tree as its native branches.

[Woody]

Quote:

One can have 100% commitment and still make mistakes, commit inadvertent, unpremeditated sins.

No matter how you dice it or slice it ... a mistake and unpremeditated sins ... are still sins. And if you are 100% committed to Christ ... you will not sin.

But yes ... being 85% committed would mean that you would sin.

[Woody]

I can't imagine Jesus using the excuse that it was just a mistake or an unpremeditated sin.

[Jeannieb43]

Quote:

One can have 100% commitment and still make mistakes, commit inadvertent, unpremeditated sins.

No matter how you dice it or slice it ... a mistake and unpremeditated sins ... are still sins. And if you are 100% committed to Christ ... you will not sin.

But yes ... being 85% committed would mean that you would sin.

I don't agree, Red. There is no one perfect on this earth, not one. God is not waiting to zap us for one little infraction. He sees the trend of our lives, and judges us on our hearts, not our outward appearance.

I believe God will save all who allow themselves to be saved. Unless we actively resist, He draws us to Himself.

[Woody]

No Doubt ... I fully agree with you.

[olger]

Temptation should not "lower" our comittment to Jesus the Christ, but rather increase it.

We cannot rewrite Scripture to fit our experience.

"They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away."

"There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it."

og

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Redwood

Quote:

One can have 100% commitment and still make mistakes, commit inadvertent, unpremeditated sins.

No matter how you dice it or slice it ... a mistake and unpremeditated sins ... are still sins. And if you are 100% committed to Christ ... you will not sin.

But yes ... being 85% committed would mean that you would sin.

I don't agree, Red. There is no one perfect on this earth, not one. God is not waiting to zap us for one little infraction. He sees the trend of our lives, and judges us on our hearts, not our outward appearance.

I believe God will save all who allow themselves to be saved. Unless we actively resist, He draws us to Himself.

Thanks, Jeannie, I could not have said it any better.

[Gerr]

Quote:

One can have 100% commitment and still make mistakes, commit inadvertent, unpremeditated sins.

No matter how you dice it or slice it ... a mistake and unpremeditated sins ... are still sins. And if you are 100% committed to Christ ... you will not sin.

But yes ... being 85% committed would mean that you would sin.

Yes, they are all sins. And as your buddy would say, the law does not give you credit for inadvertent/unpremeditated sins. That's true. But GRACE DOES. Grace can make a distiction between premeditated breaking of the law from unintentional ones. Even fallen human courts recognize that. However, let me make it clear that this acceptance of our best efforts and intentions is NOT merit for salvation. None of our best will ever produce one iota of merit so we can say we deserve heaven on account of it.

[Robert]

....the law does not give you credit for inadvertent/unpremeditated sins. That's true. But GRACE DOES.

No, grace doesn't give credit either! There's no human merit in grace. Grace is God's love seen in the life of Christ. His life is our life, His death our death. Let me use Paul:

Eph 2:4 ...because of his great love [agape] for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive in Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus....

[Gerr]

PAUL: 8 Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law. 9 The law says, “You must not be guilty of adultery. You must not murder anyone. You must not steal. You must not want to take your neighbor’s things.”  All these commands and all others are really only one rule: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 10 Love never hurts a neighbor, so loving is obeying all the law.

The Everyday Bible : New Century Version. 2005 (Ro 13:8-10). Nashville, TN.: Thomas Nelson, Inc.

[Robert]

PAUL: 8 Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law. 9 The law says, “You must not be guilty of adultery. You must not murder anyone. You must not steal. You must not want to take your neighbor’s things.”  All these commands and all others are really only one rule: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 10 Love never hurts a neighbor, so loving is obeying all the law.

The Everyday Bible : New Century Version. 2005 (Ro 13:8-10). Nashville, TN.: Thomas Nelson, Inc.

You misunderstand! Besides, terrible translation.....

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

PAUL: 8 Do not owe people anything, except always owe love to each other, because the person who loves others has obeyed all the law. 9 The law says, “You must not be guilty of adultery. You must not murder anyone. You must not steal. You must not want to take your neighbor’s things.”  All these commands and all others are really only one rule: “Love your neighbor as you love yourself.” 10 Love never hurts a neighbor, so loving is obeying all the law.

The Everyday Bible : New Century Version. 2005 (Ro 13:8-10). Nashville, TN.: Thomas Nelson, Inc.

You misunderstand! Besides, terrible translation.....

Misunderstand plain English? Terrible translation? Well then, let me help you with a few more translations. See if they say anything different.

Quote:

[color:red]

8 Let no debt remain outstanding, except the continuing debt to love one another, for he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “Do not commit adultery,” “Do not murder,” “Do not steal,” “Do not covet,”a and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: “Love your neighbor as yourself.”b 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

The Holy Bible : New International Version. 1996, c1984 (electronic ed.) (Ro 13:8-10). Grand Rapids: Zondervan.

8 Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law.

9 For this, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

New American Standard Bible : 1995 update. 1995 (Ro 13:8-10). LaHabra, CA: The Lockman Foundation.

8 Owe no one anything, except to love one another; for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery; You shall not murder; You shall not steal; You shall not covet”; and any other commandment, are summed up in this word, “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore, love is the fulfilling of the law.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ro 13:8-10). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law.

9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: • • “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”

10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Schwandt, J., & Collins, C. J. (2006; 2006). The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament (Ro 13:8-10). Logos Research Systems, Inc.

A LEGALIST will insist on perfect performance whether the person is capable or not, and gets his pound of flesh whether the sin is deliberate or unintentional. But GRACE accepts our heartfelt best:

Quote:

When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him, and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easygoing, accommodating, crossless religion. But Jesus says, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me."--The Signs of the Times, June 16, 1890. {1SM 382.2}

[Robert]

he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.....Therefore love [agape] is the fulfillment of the law.

You misunderstand Paul's statement. There are many non-Christians who "love their fellowman". Have they fulfilled the law, Gerry?

What Paul means is that such agape love is the true fulfilling of the law vs. mechanically keeping the law.

[olger]

:)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.....Therefore love [agape] is the fulfillment of the law.

You misunderstand Paul's statement. There are many non-Christians who "love their fellowman". Have they fulfilled the law, Gerry?

What Paul means is that such agape love is the true fulfilling of the law vs. mechanically keeping the law.

Quote:

14 For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, xby nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15 They show that the work of the law is ywritten on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them 16 zon that day when, aaccording to my gospel, God judges bthe secrets of men cby Christ Jesus.

The Holy Bible : English standard version. 2001 (Ro 2:14-16). Wheaton: Standard Bible Society.

14Those who aren’t Jews do not have the law. Sometimes they just naturally do what the law requires. They are a law for themselves. This is true even though they don’t have the law. 15They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts. The way their minds judge them gives witness to that fact. Sometimes their thoughts find them guilty. At other times their thoughts find them not guilty.

16People will be judged on the day God appoints Jesus Christ to judge their secret thoughts. That’s part of my good news.

New International Reader's Version. 1998 (1st ed.) (Ro 2:14-16). Zondervan.

13 For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but the doers of the law who will be justified. 14 When Gentiles, who do not possess the law, do instinctively what the law requires, these, though not having the law, are a law to themselves. 15 They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, to which their own conscience also bears witness; and their conflicting thoughts will accuse or perhaps excuse them 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God, through Jesus Christ, will judge the secret thoughts of all.

The Holy Bible : New Revised Standard Version. 1989 (Ro 2:12-16). Nashville: Thomas Nelson Publishers.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

he who loves his fellowman has fulfilled the law.....Therefore love [agape] is the fulfillment of the law.

You misunderstand Paul's statement. There are many non-Christians who "love their fellowman". Have they fulfilled the law, Gerry?

What Paul means is that such agape love is the true fulfilling of the law vs. mechanically keeping the law.

And what is agape love? Paul makes it clear: Agape love is NOT committing adultery against your neighbor. Agape love is NOT murdering your neighbor. Agape love is NOT stealing & coveting what belongs to your neighbor. And then he sums them up thus: "and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." Love does no wrong to a neighbor; THEREFORE love is the fulfilling of the law."

Of course, he is not talking about some mechanical obedience, rather he is talking about a love that comes from a heart that has been renewed by divine love.

[Robert]

And what is agape love? Paul makes it clear: Agape love is NOT committing adultery against your neighbor.....

Agape love also is not self-seeking, but I don't see the lack of this in your life! So no, you aren't fulfilling the law. Again, Paul is not stating that YOU fulfill the law because there is some agape in your life. That's sounds too much like credit. What Paul says is "agape" love is the true fulfilling of the law.

For example, let's say I give all my possessions to the poor. I come to church and everyone says, "Robert, you the man!" And I say to myself, "Wow, I did do something really good. These folks really think a lot of me."

Well, that's not "agape"...that's "iniquity" (what EGW would call the love of self). Anything good that I do must be motivated by unselfish love. I get nothing in return. Hence the motive in agape must be selfless. If it comes back to me (like in my example) the act is defiled.

So doing the right thing outwardly is not "Agape" in and of itself. My motivation must be controlled by agape. Hence there is no "self" in agape. It is always outward. The moment it is bent back to self that moment it becomes iniquity.

Ropb

[Robert]

Examples of iniquity (a u-turn agape):

Matt 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is very hard for a rich person to get into the Kingdom of Heaven. 24 I say it again – it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the Kingdom of God!" 25 The disciples were astounded. "Then who in the world can be saved?" they asked. 26 Jesus looked at them intently and said, "Humanly speaking, it is impossible. But with God everything is possible." 27 Then Peter said to him, "We've given up everything to follow you. What will we get out of it?"

Let's analyze this:

"We've given up everything to follow you."

The disciples left all behind - houses, work, family, etc, to follow Christ. Is this not a good thing? Yes, outwardly, but what about the motive?

"What will we get out of it"?

In other words, "what is in it for us"?

That's "iniquity". When you have "iniquity" in the realm of religious practice you have self-righteousness! This type of works isn't in harmony with the law. Only things done through agape is in harmony with the law.

[Robert]

Examples of iniquity (a u-turn agape):

Here's another one:

Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven [the context doesn't say what that "will" is yet]. 22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Bragging of your works isn't agape. Why? You are looking for a reward - a pat on the back. That's doing the right thing for self-centered reasons. That's "iniquity".

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

So the fruit...the will of the Father is to experience genuine fruit that is motivated by "agape". "Agape, therefore, is the fulfillment of the law." Note, "agape fulfills the law. Self-love fulfills sin. If you do something good, but the reason is selfish you are fulfilling iniquity.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock [Christ's righteousness]: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand [human works - iniquity]: 27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. 28 And it came to pass, when Jesus had ended these sayings, the people were astonished at his doctrine: 29 For he taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.