At least he's in the open about it, finally

January 2, 2005

From the New York Times January 1 issue. I used to think that Dr. Dobson was a good guy--you know, focusing on the family and all that. Then he moved his empire to Colorado and we got to see him in all his glory. I remember him getting his lawyers to ferret out all the businessmen and politicians who leaned a certain way on a certain ballot issue about 15 years ago. Then, the same year, he had the gall to write a rebuttal in Liberty magazine saying that he had never gotten involved in politics (I guess his definition of not getting involved is different than mine). Now, at least, he's in the open!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

January 1, 2005

Evangelical Leader Threatens to Use His Political Muscle Against Some Democrats

By DAVID D. KIRKPATRICK

COLORADO SPRINGS - James C. Dobson, the nation's most influential evangelical leader, is threatening to put six potentially vulnerable Democratic senators "in the 'bull's-eye' " if they block conservative appointments to the Supreme Court.

In a letter his aides say is being sent to more than one million of his supporters, Dr. Dobson, the child psychologist and founder of the evangelical organization Focus on the Family, promises "a battle of enormous proportions from sea to shining sea" if President Bush fails to appoint "strict constructionist" jurists or if Democrats filibuster to block conservative nominees.

Dr. Dobson recalled the conservative efforts that helped in the November defeat of Senator Tom Daschle of South Dakota, the Senate minority leader who led Democrats in using the filibuster to block 10 of Mr. Bush's judicial nominees.

"Let his colleagues beware," Dr. Dobson warned, "especially those representing 'red' states. Many of them will be in the 'bull's-eye' the next time they seek re-election."

He singled out Ben Nelson of Nebraska, Mark Dayton of Minnesota, Robert C. Byrd of West Virginia, Kent Conrad of North Dakota, Jeff Bingaman of New Mexico and Bill Nelson of Florida. All six are up for re-election in 2006.

James Manley, a spokesman for Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the new Democratic leader, said Democrats had allowed 204 judicial appointments to move forward in Mr. Bush's first term.

"James Dobson needs to take a moment to focus on the facts," Mr. Manley said. He called Dr. Dobson a "front for the White House."

Ralph G. Neas, president of the liberal group People for the American Way, which has often opposed conservative court nominees, said, "Mr. Dobson's arrogance knows no limits." He added: "This is the kind of tactic that ultimately backfires. These senators have served their constituents well and have courageously voted their consciences. I don't think they will take kindly to threats from Mr. Dobson, and I don't think the voters will either."

Dr. Dobson's activities represent a new level of direct partisan engagement on his part. Unlike other conservative Christian leaders, Dr. Dobson owes his grass-roots following primarily to his partly clinical, partly biblical advice on matters like marriage and child-rearing. Before supporting Mr. Bush, he had never endorsed a presidential candidate.

In the aftermath of the election, some of Dr. Dobson's allies are warning their fellow evangelicals not to be seduced by political deal-making. In "an open letter to the Christian church" last month, Charles W. Colson, the born-again Nixon aide and another influential Christian conservative, warned against listing demands of the president or other elected officials.

"To think that way demeans the Christian movement," Mr. Colson wrote with his associate Mark Earley. "We are not anybody's special interest group."

In an interview in his office in Colorado Springs, Dr. Dobson acknowledged that his plunge into partisan politics had irrevocably changed his public image. "I can't go back, nor do I want to," he said. "I will probably endorse more candidates. This is a new day. I just feel a real need to make use of this visibility."

He said that despite initial concerns, his political activities did not appear to have diverted donations from Focus on the Family. He created a sister lobbying organization during the last election, and the two organizations' combined budgets grew to a projected $146 million in 2004, from about $130 million in 2003, with a target of $170 million for 2005.

Dr. Dobson said he was prepared for some disappointments from Mr. Bush. For example, he said, when the president says the country is not ready to overturn the Supreme Court precedents supporting abortion rights, "it bothers me a lot." But Dr. Dobson said he was confident that the president would appoint socially conservative nominees for the courts.

He said of Mr. Bush, "He does not take the bully pulpit and use it effectively." He added, "But when the chips are down, he does the right thing."

Dr. Dobson said he was concentrating his political activities mainly on the court. "The next battle will be over the replacement for Rehnquist," he said, referring to Chief Justice William H. Rehnquist, who is being treated for thyroid cancer. "That is not something we can just yawn about."

He said he was hoping that Mr. Daschle's defeat would scare other Democrats. Dr. Dobson said he had been working for Mr. Daschle's defeat since August 2003, when he attended a rally to support Roy S. Moore, then chief justice of the Alabama Supreme Court, in his unsuccessful legal battle to keep a monument to the Ten Commandments in his courthouse. The crowd's reaction demonstrated the depth of popular resentment of liberal court decisions, Dr. Dobson said.

Spokesmen for all but one of the senators Dr. Dobson mentioned declined to comment or did not return phone calls.

David DiMartino, a spokesman for Mr. Nelson of Nebraska, said the senator was already an opponent of abortion rights and had never supported a filibuster of one of Mr. Bush's appellate nominees.

"Dr. Dobson knows that," Mr. DiMartino said. "The senator and Dr. Dobson have discussed it before. The fact that the media has the letter before the targeted senators indicates his intention has more to do with the media than with persuading anybody in the Senate."

January 2, 2005

Dr. Dobson has a lot of liberals shaking. He is very influencial in the evangelical community - perhaps as much as Billy Grahm once was. Dr. Dobson also presents himself well and doesn't come off as a fanatic like Pat Robertson does.

Dr. Dobson had a stroke a year or so ago (maybe a little longer) and it left him unable to speak for some time. He has recovered completely and he believes God has given him extra time for a reason. Like the prophet Daniel, Dr. Dobson is now going to get involved in politics. He has formed a seperate organization for his political lobbying so Focus On The Family will not lose its tax-exempt status.

I really stand in awe at all the good things God has used Dr. Dobson to do. Look at all the good books, radio programs and videos Focus On The Family has produced. Adventures In Oddessy is a fantastic program for children. Is Dr. Dobson's turn into political lobbying a departure from all the good he has done for Christianty throughout his life? Perhaps so but I am not so quick to condemn this man of God. If we are honest fruit inspectors we must admit that the fruit he has thus far produced speaks well for him.

January 2, 2005

Shane--I have struggled with this issue, because he has written good books and has helped many people. I'm not throwing that out. What I have never been able to stomach is his statements one way and actions the other way. Which is why I titled this thread as I did. I've not trusted him in the last 15 years, and am just showing that he's finally in the open with what he's doing.

M

January 2, 2005

I have never trusted him. Anyone who thinks that the proper foundation for rearing a child begins with breaking their will is a sick, sick, sad man -- and anyone dense enough to listen to such toxic counsel and take it to heart will surely reap the inevitable sorry whirlwind of attempting such folly.

January 2, 2005

Nico--I haven't read enough of his books to know about "breaking their will." I did read the Raising Boys one and found a couple of interesting things, but he seemed to be absolutely focused on making sure that you didn't do the things wrong that would cause your boys to become homosexual. This really turned me off from the rest of the book, and I really wasn't reading in-depth but rather skimming, anyway. And I haven't read much more. I know my mom read one or two of them when I was growing up, but whether she took it to heart or not, I don't know. I don't feel damaged by anything if she did, but I really don't know enough.

Suffice it to say, I don't trust a man whose actions are one way and who claims to be the opposite.

M

January 2, 2005

Actually Sister Michelle, if you honestly look into it you will find he has had a change in focus. It is not that he was always political and now has "come out of the closet". Since his stroke he has concluded that it is God's will for him to do some political lobbying.

Dr. Dobson's advice is not filled with pop psyc and new age ideas. Dr. Dobson is a traditionalist who embraces Biblical ideas of parenting and marriage. Some do not like this and would rather embrace ideas that have not been tested by centuries of practice. Dr. Dobson doesn't get into those social experiments with our children and marriages.

Dr. Dobson has been a God-send to my family. My wife and in-laws read his books in Spainish and listen to Focus On The Family (Enfoque En La Familia) in Spainish. 3ABN does have a program called Marriage Matters. I wish our church would give half as much attention to the issues of the family as we do to prophecy and vegetarianism.

January 2, 2005

I know the dangers prophecy warns us of concerning the illicit nature of alliances between church and state, such that Revelation 17:2 characterizes it as "fornication." But at the same time, I have to ask, is it wrong for people who have religious faith, people who have been active in public ministry, to have no right to exert their personal influence in political affairs, while other citizens who may be atheists, criminals, or whatever, are considered eligible to exert whatever political influence they can, just because they are not active in the religious realm? Somehow, this sounds like a con-job by Satan, to keep Christians from actively opposing his mechinations in the political realm. Let Christians feel they should be "above it all," so they don't even vote, and let them believe it is inherently evil for them to participate in the public arena of politics, especially if they have won some significant public influence--and then Satan and his minions have the field all to themselves, and they can march toward their objectives virtually unopposed.

I refuse to criticize Dr. Dobson for doing what he can to oppose those influences in society that he feels are in favor of worldly secularism and anti-religion. If he is willing to pay the price of making himself a public target for political partisans, then more power to him for acting on the basis of his Christian conscience. I wish more of the professed Christians who criticize him would bother to get up off of their comfortable couches themselves, and actually go out and do something that matters to help make the world a better place by actively opposing evil and championing the often unpopular cause of Good. Let them be willing to risk something, and take some shots, for the cause of God, instead of just criticizing those who do.

January 2, 2005

To paraphrase how Mrs. White responded to a situation:

I'm afraid of him, I'm afraid of him, I'm afraid of him.

January 3, 2005

Perfect love casts out all fear

January 3, 2005

Quote:

I know the dangers prophecy warns us of concerning the illicit nature of alliances between church and state, such that Revelation 17:2 characterizes it as "fornication." But at the same time, I have to ask, is it wrong for people who have religious faith, people who have been active in public ministry, to have no right to exert their personal influence in political affairs, while other citizens who may be atheists, criminals, or whatever, are considered eligible to exert whatever political influence they can, just because they are not active in the religious realm? Somehow, this sounds like a con-job by Satan, to keep Christians from actively opposing his mechinations in the political realm. Let Christians feel they should be "above it all," so they don't even vote, and let them believe it is inherently evil for them to participate in the public arena of politics, especially if they have won some significant public influence--and then Satan and his minions have the field all to themselves, and they can march toward their objectives virtually unopposed.

Taking this away from Dobson specifically at the moment and approaching it in general, I think you raise a legitimate question here, one that deserves an answer. I believe that answer can be found in the scriptures and is better found there than in the literature of politicians and political parties, wouldn't you agree?

John 18:36-37:[:"blue"]

36 Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence.

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.[/]

Here it seems very clear that:

Christ's Kingdom is not of this world.
IF it were of this world, THEN would His servants fight in the manner of this world to protect His interests -- but that is not to be the case because His Kingdom is NOT from hence.
The purpose of Christ (and thus by extension, of Christians) in the world is to bear witness to the truth. THIS is the power we have been given for overcoming evil with good, not the ways by which this world is governed by men:
[:"blue"]

25 Jesus called them together and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. 26 Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, 27 and whoever wants to be first must be your slave– 28 just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”[/]

The nature of "hierarchy" Christ's way is topsy-turvy from the way of the world. While some have argued this is only intended to serve as some sort of attitudinal guideline concerning how those who would seek political office and power are to exercise it, I would maintain that it is a call not to seek authority over others after the manner of the world, period. It is impossible to fulfill the directive of this passage while conducting oneself in the strongarming fashion after which Dobson is cited as doing above and which many others in the name of "actively opposing his [satan's] mechinations in the political realm" have fallen into as well.

Bearing witness to the truth being our primary modus operandi and raison d'etre (following the example and purpose of Christ), we are not left without a voice in this world:

2 Corinthians 10:2-5[:"blue"]

2 I beg you that when I come I may not have to be as bold as I expect to be toward some people who think that we live by the standards of this world. 3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.[/]

It seems clear that Paul is referring to engaging our energies in spiritual warfare -- and I don't mean the nonsense being passed off in popular Christian quasi-apocalyptic fiction, either; I don't believe lengthy prayers against demons constitute anything more than churchy superstition. The weapons are the weapons of faith: prayer, evangelism, preaching the Word, living the Truth as a witness in this world. If we were doing the works our Master did -- engaging continually in the relief of human suffering, the healing of human pain, the comfort of human hearts, the soothing of human terror and anguish -- they would flock to us as they did to Him. And I think deep down we all know it.

What drives the push for political prowess? What really lies behind it? It is the desire to "lord it over" others -- to substitute force and control for sacrifice and service -- and in the absence of fervent, manifest love for the lost burning in our hearts, to seek instead to compel others to submit to our rules lest we face the continual reminder of our own spiritual impoverishment and hypocrisy.

Like the Jews in Christ's day, though, too many of us don't really want the real Christ Jesus. We want a warrior king who will trample our enemies, drown them in their own blood, and carry out the hatred and vengeance in our hearts in terms too horrifying and irrevocable to contemplate. We don't want the Heart of Love with His healing touch, His sympathy for people we consider depraved or despicable and look down upon. We don't want the pacifist who says those who kill in the name of God do err, "because they do not know the Father, nor Me" (cf. John 16:1-4), who tells us His Kingdom is NOT of this world, who bids Peter to put away the sword rather than strike out in His defense. No, we don't want that Jesus, and if He were among us today we would crucify Him all over again, if not tear Him to shreds with our bare hands, vicious tongues, or printing presses -- but because He is not, we execute that wrath instead upon those who won't leave us comfortably in our illusions of self-righteousness.

January 3, 2005

Nico, thank you for that post...reading it was like a breath of fresh air...

I have long been deeply troubled by the increasing tendency of religion and politics to mix and blur their boundaries.

I am tired of feeling like a freak...for suggesting that maybe Jesus DID mean it when He said to love our enemies and do good to them that hate us.

I am tired of doubting that I have what it takes to be a "good Christian", because it seems that to be a good Christian one must be a warmongering, Muslim-hating, homophobic, sexist, reactionary fundamentalist.

My computer tells me that you're not taking PM's at the moment, so I'll say this publicly -

You are an asset to ClubAdventist and your thoughts and perspectives are sorely needed here. Don't ever leave - and may you be abundantly blessed in your spiritual walk.

aldona

January 3, 2005

Quote:

Nico, thank you for that post...reading it was like a breath of fresh air...

Let's both thank our merciful Creator that He is able and willing to bring light to my troubled mind long enough to get it transmitted ... and pray He will increase those times and that light for us all.

Quote:

I have long been deeply troubled by the increasing tendency of religion and politics to mix and blur their boundaries.

I am tired of feeling like a freak...for suggesting that maybe Jesus DID mean it when He said to love our enemies and do good to them that hate us...

I am tired of doubting that I have what it takes to be a "good Christian", because it seems that to be a good Christian one must be a warmongering, Muslim-hating, homophobic, sexist, reactionary fundamentalist.

I understand and empathize with those feelings. We must be strong, because the beast is on the rise, and intends to unleash the full force given him to taint our consciousness and confuse us. It is time to draw closer to the Truth manifest in the Life and Teachings of Christ Himself -- to take these above all else, even other Bible writers if anything seems contradictory -- and to draw near to one another, holding one another up in confirmation and affirmation of the True Light of the world as surely as his faithful attendants held up the arms of Moses during battle.

Quote:

You are an asset to ClubAdventist and your thoughts and perspectives are sorely needed here. Don't ever leave - and may you be abundantly blessed in your spiritual walk.

May the blessing you invoke return powerfully also to you, and I would solicit your earnest prayers on my behalf as I wrestle against the darkness and afflictions inside that would consume me, and those who willingly or inadvertently would aid them to do so.

your humble servant when permitted,

nicodema

January 3, 2005

In a democracy, we do not need to take up arms and fight in the worldly way. We do not need to depose a king or emperor in order bring about reform of our society for the good of the people. The Holy Spirit and the angels of God have labored valiantly for centuries to bring about the creation of a republic such as ours, where a small minority of people can be free to influence their society for the good, and serve as God's witnesses and champions in the message of present truth, and in all its corollary applications in the cause of Good.

How can anyone possibly imagine that sitting back and doing nothing, even tying your hands behind your back, in the face of serious evil that you could effectively oppose, is somehow being "spiritual" and that Heaven would regard such a course as righteous?

Jesus may not have deposed Caesar, but He did cast out devils, publicly rebuked the Scribes and the Pharisees, and chased the money-changers out of the temple.

January 3, 2005

Thanks, Nico and Aldona, for your comments. I feel we need to be always vigilant, for the "wolves in sheep's clothing" which will abound in the last days. Something which may appear on the surface to be promoting conservativism and good Protestant religion, may in fact be the "foot in the door" of a combination Apostate Protestantism and Catholicism which Ellen White warns will lead to the national Sunday law and persecution of true believers in the last days.

Dr. Dobson is an active member of the Nazarene Church--a deacon and a bishop in that church, in fact. Before establishing his Focus on the Family radio program which grew into a large ministry originally located in Southern California, he had been a member of the faculty at Point Loma College, a Nazarene college near San Diego. Our Adventist church showed his videos as a prayer meeting series about 25 years ago (Focus on the Family)--and the child-rearing tips were wonderful. Not a hint of doctrinal problem or proselytizing. But now, a little power has made Jim Dobson take on more power to himself.

A word to the wise is sufficient.

January 3, 2005

Quote:

In a democracy, we do not need to take up arms and fight in the worldly way. We do not need to depose a king or emperor in order bring about reform of our society for the good of the people.

Correct! Now tell that to the rabid right-wing faction within the Republican party who mean to take over the government by "deposing" moderates and installing their own shills instead. Tell that to the think tanks and media attack dogs who take up the weapons of spin, deceit, and social-engineering memetics and fight very much in the "worldly way" indeed with their lying lips, ill-conceived influence, and wads of cash. Tell that to the Dobsons in this world who intend to put human lives in their crosshairs to accomplish their dark aims for power.

Quote:

The Holy Spirit and the angels of God have labored valiantly for centuries to bring about the creation of a republic such as ours

Precisely so, which is why we should guard, protect and defend the original freedoms upon which it was founded, rather than rewrite them craftily to pretend they were intended to favor our point of view. It is only in the atmosphere of freedom that the true gospel of Jesus Christ has any chance to shine, and to us has been given the formidable task of defending liberty of conscience for the heathen and irreligious in our midst as part of bearing witness to the Truth, and in the hardest way possible: against those of our own brethren who are in the process of being deceived upon this very point.

Quote:

How can anyone possibly imagine that sitting back and doing nothing, even tying your hands behind your back, in the face of serious evil that you could effectively oppose, is somehow being "spiritual" and that Heaven would regard such a course as righteous?

I don't -- and I never have. This is how you repeatedly insist upon interpolating my position; it has nothing to do with what I actually stand for or believe myself. Nowhere have I advocated "sitting back and doing nothing" nor "tying ... hands behind [the] back." These are purely figments of your imagination.

Quote:

Jesus may not have deposed Caesar, but He did cast out devils, publicly rebuked the Scribes and the Pharisees, and chased the money-changers out of the temple.

And not once did He seek public office -- or any other formal recognition of so-called "authority" from human beings -- to do it.

January 3, 2005

Nico--I appreciate your scriptural answer above. Really solidified my thinking in this issue. Somewhere, I believe EGW talks about "the church" looking for political power because it had lost the power of attracting people on its own merits (sorry, very poor paraphrase).

When I showed my husband the article and told him I was posting it here, he said, you know, the SDAs who support Dobson and his ilk are going to be REALLY surprised when Dr. D and his cronies are all "in power"--do these SDAs REALLY think that Dobson et al are going to support their religious liberties? Uh huh!

M

January 4, 2005

[:"brown"] 11 Then I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb and he spoke as a dragon.[/]

(Looks lamblike -- looks Christian, looks righteous, looks meek, looks in the image of The Lamb -- but speaks as a dragon. Have you heard the dragon's voice? smelled or felt his foetid breath? heard words that sounded righteous and moral on the surface but inside are full of rottenness, the self-justification of atrocities over which our Loving Lord would weep?)

[:"brown"]

12 He exercises all the authority of the first beast in his presence And he makes the earth and those who dwell in it to worship the first beast, whose fatal wound was healed.[/]

("Authority" of the first beast came from corrupt religion passed off as the one true way against which none other might stand before God and "married" to political, earthly power, the power that men grant one another to make war and dictate and lord over the people how to order their lives so that they may make of them slaves ... "makes" the earth and those who dwell therein = coercion, laws erected in violation of liberty of conscience, intrusion, justification for taking away privacy from decent, honest, law-abiding citizens; everyone is a potential criminal ... and treated as one ... anyone flown lately?)

[:"brown"]

13 He performs great signs, so that he even makes fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the presence of men.[/]

(Could this be the very engines of war in our modern times, this "fire from heaven"? Or perhaps spiritually speaking, the spreading wildfire of popular support on the basis of shared religious zeal and imagined moral goals?)

[:"brown"]

14 And he deceives those who dwell on the earth because of the signs which it was given him to perform in the presence of the beast, telling those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the beast who had the wound of the sword and has come to life.[/]

(Image to the beast: fashion your rule of law, your government and society, likewise as did the first beast; they believe they do this in service to God! Did not 9/11 deliver a "fatal blow" to our corporate-based western lifestyle? Not saying 9/11 has to be THE fulfillment of this passage, of course -- I cannot know that at this time -- but that it is fitting indeed as a "deadly wound" blow against the beast that seemed fatal and yet he lived. the greatest fatality suffered being the liberty upon which our government was founded ... just sharing some ruminations here. Let the Word speak to YOUR hearts, though ...)

[:"brown"]

15 And it was given to him to give breath to the image of the beast, so that the image of the beast would even speak and cause as many as do not worship the image of the beast to be killed.

16 And he causes all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free men and the slaves, to be given a mark on their right hand or on their forehead,

17 and he provides that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

[/]

-- Revelation 13:11-17, emphasis added.

So the beast causes ALL to take the mark? ALL? ... And YET ...

[:"brown"]

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."[/]

(Who is it that is so tormented? It is not the atheist worshipping no one. It is not the Muslim worshipping Allah. It is not the Hindu worshipping Brahma or Vishnu. It is not the Wiccan worshipping the Great Goddess, Mother Earth. It is not even the devil worshipper subjugating himself before the Prince of Darkness. It is whomever worships the beast and his image, and receives the mark.)

-- Revelation 14:9-11, emphasis added.

[:"red"]Hear the Word of the Lord![/]

[:"blue"]

5 Hear the word of the LORD,

you who tremble at his word:

"Your brothers who hate you,

and exclude you because of my name, have said,

'Let the LORD be glorified,

that we may see your joy!'

Yet they will be put to shame.

[/]

-- Isaiah 66:5, emphasis added.

[:"purple"]

1 “All this I have told you so that you will not go astray.[/]

(Jesus is specifically sharing these things to AVOID having us go astray; shouldn't we listen?)

[:"purple"]

2 They will put you out of the synagogue;[/] --

(Isn't this what the apostles began doing even while the canonical epistles were being written???) --

[:"purple"] in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God.[/] --

(News flash: that time is upon us now. We will NOT be cycling back for another round of waiting, folks. This is IT. The final movements will be rapid ones. Look up! Redemption draweth nigh!!!)

[:"purple"]3 They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me.[/] --

-- (So don't be deceived by them. Regardless of how holy they sound, no, says Lord Jesus Himself, they really don't know Him, or the Father.

[:"purple"] 4 I have told you this, so that when the time comes you will remember that I warned you.[/] --

-- once again the statement of intent from our Lord. His purpose is that we would have those words specifically to refer to, so we could know without a shadow of doubt, without a single uncertainty, what would be the nature of them, what to watch and be on guard about.

You don't need to hear me for my sake. Nico Kinney is nothing before God -- a sinner, a fool, a raving lunatic, a blind Samson on a suicide mission against the Philistines, a pathetic creature in desperate need of redemption. This, though, is the Word of the Lord. Hear ye Him!!!

January 4, 2005

Quote:

Nico--I appreciate your scriptural answer above. Really solidified my thinking in this issue. Somewhere, I believe EGW talks about "the church" looking for political power because it had lost the power of attracting people on its own merits (sorry, very poor paraphrase).

I am always pleased and greatly awed when God chooses to share His word through me. i'm glad you found the post helpful.

January 4, 2005

Scripture does not teach that Christians cannot become active in politics. Here again is an opportunity for me to show that I am in the middle and not to either extreame.

One extreame says that Christians should not get involved in politics. Some in this camp even go to the extreame of saying Chrisitians should not vote. They forget about two men of which the Bible never mentions any sin (but of course they were sinners). Both Joseph and Daniel were heavily involved in politics and used their offices to testify of their faith.

The other extreame says it is a Christian's duty to become involved in politics and a Christian's duty to vote. This extreame seems to forget Christ's words to Pilot about His kingdom not being of this world.

I find the center of the spectrum more in line with the Bible. The Bible does not compel the believer to become involved in the political process. While voting may be a civic duty, it is not a Christian duty. Just as God calls some to be doctors, others pastors, others teachers and still others to be managers, God also calls some to serve in a political role.

It seems that for much of his life Dr. Dobson felt called to serve as a pastor, teacher and counselor. Now at the sunset of his life he has felt called to get involved politically with the affairs of his country. I see no Biblical objection to that.

January 4, 2005

Something absolutely fascinating as I've watched these discussions/arguments/debates/brawls/? over the past months is that it seems as though allegiances have switched. In that, I mean that, when I hear the "conservatives" talk about the "liberals" it is that the "liberals" are trying to do away with a lot of the pillars of our church's belief system. However, at least in the case of Nico (whom no one would EVER accuse as being a conservative ), she is blowing the trumpet and sounding the alarm that was sounded at the founding of our church and has been rather dimmed lately, and the "conservatives" are the ones arguing against this clarion call.

It has taken me a while to wrap my brain around this and figure it out. Sidetracked by red herrings ("liberal" agenda vs "conservative" agenda, which is not the case at all). I'm still stunned at the arguments, though.

Shane, I NEVER said Dr. Dobson couldn't get involved with politics. I have repeatedly said that I'm just glad he's in the open now. He's done his political work in the past hiding behind his lawyers, and at least now now we can see what he's doing.

I also don't buy the argument that he had a newsflash from God after his stroke that he should now get involved in politics. Anyone who listened to him in the past 2-3 years knows that his programs, which are ostensibly about the family, have been increasingly focused on political lobbying and "taking back" our country. I, who usually turn him off when I hear his voice, have even heard this in the bits and pieces I've heard before I could reach the radio knob. My best friend, who listened to him faithfully, told me that she was really getting tired of his political speeches.

We have the freedom to do whatever we want in this country. Other Christians can do whatever they want to do. Do we need to follow or wonder after them? Do we need to support them?

M

January 4, 2005

At the begining of the Adventist movement the religious right of the time had two big issues. Does anyone know what they were and what the Adventist positions were?

The issues were slavery and prohibition. Sister White said slavery was our nation's greatest sin and that we should vote for prohibition even if it meant voting on Sabbath. So it seems Sister White favored legislating portions of Christian morality. It sounds like she had no issues with these Protestant religous movements of her time trying to get the civil government to enforce these issues.

A problem with many in the Adventist church is that they get their political views from sources outside the church without checking with what the church believes and why the church believes it. How many here know that the Adventist church does not oppose Sunday being designated as a day of rest by the civil government? That is right. Call our religious liberty department and ask them about that. Clifford Goldstein discusses that in his book, "One Nation Under God?"

I think too many just want to go to the extreames. They either want to be extreamely liberal or extreamely conservative. I think that the Adventist church tends to hold positions that are more in the middle of the spectrum.

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

I NEVER said Dr. Dobson couldn't get involved with politics. I have repeatedly said that I'm just glad he's in the open now.

I am very careful not to accuse my Christian brothers and sisters of lying. What Dr. Dobson is now doing is distinctly different from what he has been doing before. He has been open and upfront. Unlike Pat Robertson who lost his tax-exempt status for disguising politics as religion, Dr. Dobson has kept his religious ministry religious, and started a seperate organization for political lobbying.

January 4, 2005

Quote:

I am tired of doubting that I have what it takes to be a "good Christian", because it seems that to be a good Christian one must be a warmongering, Muslim-hating, homophobic, sexist, reactionary fundamentalist.

My computer tells me that you're not taking PM's at the moment, so I'll say this publicly -

You are an asset to ClubAdventist and your thoughts and perspectives are sorely needed here. Don't ever leave - and may you be abundantly blessed in your spiritual walk.

Aldona,

While I have caught up to this point in reading this thread, I just want to add a hearty "Amen" to this.

I am tired of being a "wimpy" Christian, where I have to roll over for largely mythicological "truths" are being broadcased as a type of reality when my own senses tell me otherwise. It is just a shame to me that others are putting forth a myth for some sort of reality.

Oh, and Nico, if you ever decide to leave this c/a, I will be extremely sadden by your departure. In fact, I will be so saddened, that I just might be motivated enough to seek you out and find you and insist that you come back. Your posts are honestly refreshing and are truth in the raw, and not sugar-coated nice sentamental clap. In my mind, you are like the MASH doctor, who surgically removes and debreds foreign material/diseases from the body. Please dont you ever leave without sending me a PM and letting me talk you out of it!. You tell it like it is, and, contrary to some people's opinion, you really don't go overboard in your remarks. They are pretty much right on.

January 4, 2005

Quote:

I also don't buy the argument that he had a newsflash from God after his stroke that he should now get involved in politics. Anyone who listened to him in the past 2-3 years knows that his programs, which are ostensibly about the family, have been increasingly focused on political lobbying and "taking back" our country.

During the 80's, Michelle, I used to listen to James Dobson during my lunch break, while at school. I enjoyed listening to him tell how to have a Christian family, and the hows and wherefores of interpersonal relationships between men and women and parents and children. But there were days where the lunch hour program would turn political and I would get very nervious.

I remember Dobson talking about how 3 generations of his family 'would be saved', as his grandfather and father were preachers and he had an angel tell him that in a dream. I got a bit nervious over that too. I got a bit nervious over his political involvment in attempting to bring "Christian values" into politics and how him and Lahay et al were financing the religious right movenment. I got very nervious over that.

Now I have them attempting to influence my kids with thier brand of Christianity. I have drawn a line, now and have asked them not to send my children thier political magazines. In fact, I have ask them to remove my children's names from thier mailing lists. It took about 3 months and some adiment discussion but it has been done...

I am sorry, but I have compartmentalized Dobson, now. Anytime he talks aobut family relationships, I listen. But when it comes to his brand of politics, I tune him out.

January 4, 2005

Quote:

Scripture does not teach that Christians cannot become active in politics.

I don't know if you meant this as just a general comment to lead into your own thoughts, Shane, or if you meant it to "counter" my statements, but if it was the latter, I just want to reiterate that I have not made such a claim. A careful reading of my posts will indicate where I stand on the matter.

Quote:

One extreame says that Christians should not get involved in politics. Some in this camp even go to the extreame of saying Chrisitians should not vote.

Again, I don't know if your intent was to try to portray me this way as a backdrop to how you represent your own stance, but I am not a member of this extreme either. I have made it plain where I believe the line is drawn on our involvement, and you ought to know by now that I am definitely not of the persuasion that says we should not vote.

Quote:

They forget about two men of which the Bible never mentions any sin (but of course they were sinners). Both Joseph and Daniel were heavily involved in politics and used their offices to testify of their faith.

Both Joseph and Daniel lived prior to the perfect witness of the life of Jesus Christ upon the earth, prior to the establishment of the New Covenant through His death and resurrection which set us free from the law as the vehicle for the attainment of righteousness, which righteousness it is revealed could not be obtained by that means anyway (cf. Romans). There are some who think this makes no difference, since "God changes not," as they say, but I perceive that scripture teaches otherwise.

Quote:

Just as God calls some to be doctors, others pastors, others teachers and still others to be managers, God also calls some to serve in a political role.

I think here you are conflating the list of spiritual vocations given for service to the Heavenly kingdom and the flock with the potential walks of life in the earthly kingdom. I find no such conflation (mingling together) in scripture.

Let not our hearts be darkened and turned back to confusion, O Lord! Let not the minds of Your faithful servants be confounded, but grant us grace and strength to cling to Thee, to honor and cherish all awareness of absolute clarity in Thy Word.

January 4, 2005

Quote:

Oh, and Nico, if you ever decide to leave this c/a, I will be extremely sadden by your departure. In fact, I will be so saddened, that I just might be motivated enough to seek you out and find you and insist that you come back. Your posts are honestly refreshing and are truth in the raw, and not sugar-coated nice sentamental clap. In my mind, you are like the MASH doctor, who surgically removes and debreds foreign material/diseases from the body. Please dont you ever leave without sending me a PM and letting me talk you out of it!. You tell it like it is, and, contrary to some people's opinion, you really don't go overboard in your remarks. They are pretty much right on.

Your prayers and encouragements are sorely needed and earnestly solicited, for mine is a weak vessel, and highly subject to infirmities, the likes of which have doubtless become apparent to some degree or another in the year that I've been posting here.

A word about encouragements, and why they are needed. The Bible exhorts us to encourage one another "in the Lord." It is not to pander to the vanity of ego, nor inflate the sense of self. It is, rather, an invocation for another to enter his or her right mind. In the moment of vibrant connection with God, through Christ, in Spirit and Truth, comes Clarity. And in the moment of Clarity comes Awareness, the breath of fresh air. This is what the darkness is after -- what it seeks to devour, destroy, suffocate -- and all other moments besides those in Absolute Clarity are spent either wrestling to retain it, or shut up in the dungeon without it, until liberty is declared to the captive once more.

An encouragement is a call to come out of the darkness and seek the light, and to remember where it was last seen. It is as "an altar to the Lord in the heart of Egypt, and a monument to the Lord at its border." (Isaiah 19:19) When we acknowledge the Word of God and the Spirit of God operative in one another, we provide a "second witness" -- an external confirmation of their private reality in perceived communion with God -- that acts as a formidable bulwark against darkness and confusion (two major weapons of the enemy) which is one of the main purposes of existing together in a community of faith at all. We provide a testimony of the witness borne by the Spirit in our hearts which meets the witness borne by the Spirit in another's heart, and thereby enter into "agreement together" in the Lord, establishing the matter.

And it is absolutely vital that we do this, and critical at this time in particular ("...encouraging one another; and all the more as you see the day drawing near" -- Heb. 10:25b) precisely because of the plethora of voices out there operative to discourage, to confuse, to confound, to play "one-upmanship", pretending a superior righteousness to what is revealed by the Word of Truth, and to form wicked alliances by performing a mockery of this unity in the Spirit by "agreeing upon" and "second witnessing" deceit and lies with one another, confirming one another in darkness, in an imitation of Spirit-led community even as the magicians in Pharaoh's court imitated the changing of their staves to serpents after the manner of Moses.

[:"blue"]

13 But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.

14 For this reason it says,

"Awake, sleeper,

And arise from the dead,

And Christ will shine on you."

15 Therefore be careful how you walk, not as unwise men but as wise,

16 making the most of your time, because the days are evil.

[/]

-- Ephesians 5:13-16

The time for sounding the loud cry of the third angel's message is now. It was your (the SDAs') awareness that this day would come that originally caught my attention and brought me to you when I was 16. This task was not given to me alone. It is the purpose for which this movement, this church, was raised in the first place.

The final movements will be rapid ones. Let's bear witness to the Truth together.

Sign In

At least he's in the open about it, finally

Recommended Posts

Michelle

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Top Posters In This Topic

Popular Days

Dr. Shane

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Michelle

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Michelle

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Dr. Shane

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Ron Lambert

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Kevin H

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Dr. Shane

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

aldona

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Ron Lambert

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Jeannieb43

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Michelle

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Dr. Shane

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Michelle

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Dr. Shane

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Neil D

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Neil D

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema

Link to comment

Share on other sites

Nicodema