Ron Lambert Posted January 4, 2005 Share Posted January 4, 2005 Good points you raise, Shane, about Adventist participation in the Abolition of Slavery Movement. Ellen G. White also endorsed Adventists' participation in the political crusade to bring about Prohibition of alcoholic beverages, because the Temperance Movement was of God, designed to save individuals and families which were being ruined by the ready availability of alcoholic beverages. (Here is one point today where the Muslims are superior to us in their moral standards, since our nation gave up on Prohibition after only 11 years.) I might point out that in the case of Abolition of Slavery, Adventists did more than just vote. Adventists are known to have been foremost in providing safe refuges along the way for escaping slaves. Most of the stops in the fabled "Underground Railroad" were in the homes of Adventist families, daring to defy the law and risk their property and their own freedom to aid a politicial cause they knew was right and in harmony with their Christian principles. Sojouner Truth, a black lady who escourted many groups of escaping slaves along the underground railroad, remained a friend of Adventists long after slavery was finally abolished, and even until the day of her death, often speaking at Adventist meetings attended also by Ellen G. White, even though she never became an Adventist herself. She was grateful to Adventists for their daring, bold, self-sacrificing role in providing a way for her people to find their way to safe havens in the northern free states. How many Adventists today would behave with the heroism of those Adventist families at the stops along the Underground Railroad? Well, there are similar causes today where such can prove themselves, causes just as important, which too many refuse to get involved in lest they dirty their hands with "politics." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Brother Ron, I suspect there are many Adventists today that are not so paranoid about the division of church and state that they sell out their morality. I know a number of Adventists that are liberal but are having a difficult time supporting pro-choice, pro-gay marriage democrats. We need to keep prespective that not all liberals are immoral. There are pro-life liberals that do not favor gay marriage. Being liberal simply means that one believes larger government can make a better society. One can believe in big government without selling out their morals. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 How many Adventists today would stand to defend the rights of a racially-profiled Muslim dragged off to prison camp, a witch, or a homosexual when those are attacked by so-called "good Christian folk" -- the way the rights of those slaves as human beings were disregarded by those who considered them a lesser species and themselves "good Christian folk"? (Before you "go there", defending human rights does not equate to selling out morality. Defending a [insert-pet-sin]er's human rights does not equate to one becoming a [insert-pet-sin]er, for example.) How many Adventists today would stand against the majority, against the tide of popular sentiment, to oppose the beast who roars his way through the earth trampling God's children for whom He gave His only begotten Son? Quote: Well, there are similar causes today where such can prove themselves, causes just as important Indeed. I can think of no greater (political) cause than that of liberty of conscience for those who might not use it the way we think they ought. What tremendous witness for truth we might bear as liberators of the captives just like our Master, as standing fast in the freedom wherewith Christ hath made us free, no longer needing to be entangled in the yoke of bondage. Quote: too many refuse to get involved in lest they dirty their hands with "politics." I find it curious that the strawman must constantly be employed. Thus far I have not seen anyone enter this discussion who even holds that position, so why does it keep getting invoked? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Quote: I suspect there are many Adventists today that are not so paranoid about the division of church and state that they sell out their morality. I know a number of Adventists that are liberal but are having a difficult time supporting pro-choice, pro-gay marriage democrats. Supporting these political sides does not mean one has "sold out their morals" Shane. It simply means one does not see the alternative as superior. Remember, often political choices are made on the basis of "the lesser of two evils". I believe it is more important -- in terms of bearing witness to Truth (the ultimate goal as stated by our Master) to defend the human rights and liberty of conscience for those who do not share Bible morals than it is to try to force them to live by Bible morals at the expense of their freedom of will. Remember God did not HAVE to put that tree in the garden, but He gave Adam a *choice*, even knowing which way it would go. Quote: We need to keep prespective that not all liberals are immoral. There are pro-life liberals that do not favor gay marriage. Being liberal simply means that one believes larger government can make a better society. One can believe in big government without selling out their morals. It is both unfair and inaccurate for you to infer an automatic assignment of immorality to those who support choice and want the government to keep out of peoples' private relationships. Defense of the civil rights and liberties of others who do not share one's values are not the same thing as scrapping one's own values. It is likewise inaccurate that liberals believe larger government makes a better society -- that is an inaccurate and deliberately unflattering portrayal of liberalism employed by conservatives which is then contrasted to the supposed conservativist stance against big government when anyone can see that conservatives are quite willing to have the government intrude on any and every area of private life and maintain tracking and dossiers on private citizens as though everyone were a potential criminal. The only reason conservatives spin this nonsense is because they oppose the liberal desire to see government execute discretion over areas where large corporations and big money interests are capable of running amok and not being accountable to anyone otherwise. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 Liberals do believe in bigger government. That is taught in political science 101. Conservatives believe in smaller government and Libertarians beleive in minimum government. You can twist the Word of God around all you want to meet your politcal agenda but I do not see that allowing a woman to murder her child or two gay guys to corrupt marriage is in any way advancing liberty or civil rights. I know many Christian liberals that refuse sell out their morality for gays and abortionists. The fact that some Christians actually support abortion rights and gay marriage is exactly the reason God calls forth men like Dr. Dobson. Praise God for He is worthy. Blessed be His name! Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 So be it, Shane -- if you must have the last word, and cannot leave things alone until you have driven it into the ground, then take it. I'm done here. I do not have the power to make blind eyes see. I wish I did. If it pleases you to think me an apostate, an abomination, a deceiver, a "seller out of morals", then go right ahead. It's not going to change REALITY one iota. I would rather sell out on morals than sell out on love. Praise God, they said the same things about Christ Himself which you attempt so slyly to imply of me, so I am fortunate to be in such good company. "This man receiveth sinners and EATS with them!" You dominionists have conveniently reinterpreted every act and teaching of Christ so as to saturate it with the yoke of bondage, thus recreating Christ in your own image -- a Pharisee obsessed with authoritarian constructs, a belligerent and pushy bully, and an imperialistic warmongerer. You are worshipping the new aeon god of war and vengeance -- not Christ. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 5, 2005 Share Posted January 5, 2005 A house divided against itself cannot stand. Grant me one last strength to grasp the pillar, O Lord, and bring it toppling down upon all within ... kill me with the Philistines! Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> If it pleases you to think me... <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> Sister Nico, this discussion (and any other) is not about you and me. This is about the free exchange of ideas. Some have the idea that Dr. Dobson is an apostate and working to bring about the mark of the beast. I challenge that idealogy and say, "Hey, wait a minute. Just because he is not Adventist and is getting involved with lobbying doesn't make him wrong." Why is it that the Left is only concerned when conservative clergy members get involved in politics? What about Al Frankin and Jesse Jackson? Both of them are ordained ministers and hide behind tax-exempt "ministries". At least Dr. Dobson has formed a taxable organization for his political lobbying and which seems to be a little more honest than the Reverand Jackson and Frankin. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michelle Posted January 6, 2005 Author Share Posted January 6, 2005 Quote: I live next door to Colorado Springs where the 'christian movement' is based. Dobson is now only about what he believes to be the 'right' christian perspective. Called of God, you don't know Dobson very well, Dobson has called himself!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 I would not like to face the Judgment and have to explain why I spoke up in opposition to those people who were opposing abortion on demand and fighting against attempts to redefine marriage to give full societal approval to homosexual behavior. Would all the rationalizations and qualifications that are being offered really persuade God to change His mind about what He has declared to be sin? Would any of us presume to lecture God on what love really means? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Apparently you would, Ron, since you have given it a definition that involves it's opposite, compulsion, and quite against a century and a half of good solid SDA understanding concerning God's respect for man's free will lying at the heart of the Great Controversy, insist it is a definition God Himself lives by exclusively. So perhaps you ought to turn your heady & haughty-minded question upon yourself (along with its tiresome quaver ... just how many years have you been a slave to fear, by the way???) Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 You seem like a very unhappy person, Nicodema, so utterly judgmental, so totally mistaken in how you view me and misinterpret my words, or anyone else who would contradict and correct you. You are still manifesting that huge chip on your shoulder I warned you about after your very first post in this forum. But if you prefer to be wise in your own eyes at all costs, then you are stuck with yourself and the limits of your understanding. That is your apt punishment. As for what I have said, as the saying goes, "Wisdom is known of her children." Obviously you are not one of them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 6, 2005 Share Posted January 6, 2005 Bwahahahahahahaaaa ... nice try ... let us know when you return to not just reality but some semblance of intelligence. Or shall we send you a nice bouquet of daisies and a fruit basket? Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 His is a tiresome refrain: a stale pretense at imitating a dragon's roar in the absence of knowledge, truth, or love from on High. It is the telltale cadence of a fear slave seeking to virally reproduce itself. Gross. God please grant me compassion even unto the vermin and the virus. Amen. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Lambert Posted January 7, 2005 Share Posted January 7, 2005 That is a very dangerously self-righteous prayer for you to pray, Nicodema. God likely does not appreciate you attempting to use prayer to Him as an excuse to insult people. You have not accepted any of the other wise counsel I have given you, so you likely will not receive this either. But I had to say something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Fundamentals of Christian Education, page 483 "There is a large vineyard to be cultivated; but while Christians are to work among unbelievers, they are not to appear like worldlings. They are not to spend their time talking politics or acting as politicians; for by so doing, they give the enemy opportunity to come in and cause variance and discord. Those in the ministry who desire to stand as politicians should have their credentials taken from them; for this work God has not given to high or low among His people." This council is applicable, not only to SDA ministers but to all ordained servants of Christ who are to supposed to be furthering His Eternal Kingdom, not furthering the temporal political kingdoms of men. Here’s more: “God calls to His people, saying, "Come out from among them, and be ye separate." His children are to separate themselves from politics, from any alliance with unbelievers. They are not to link their interests with the interests of the world. "Give proof of your allegiance to Me" He says, "by standing as My chosen heritage, as a people zealous of good works." Do not take part in political strife. Separate from the world, and refrain from bringing into the church or school ideas that will lead to contention or disorder. True Christian influence, exerted for the accomplishment of the work God has appointed, is a precious agency, and it must not be united with politics, or bound up in a confederacy with unbelievers. God is to be the center of attraction. Every mind that is worked by the Holy Spirit will be satisfied with Him.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Quote: That is a very dangerously self-righteous prayer for you to pray, Nicodema. Depends on who is referred to by "the vermin and the virus," and who's doing that referring. It also depends on whether or not it might set a precedent or example for any who think of me in those terms, that they might learn their duty before God even unto "the least of these" and/or their "enemies", which duty is Compassion. If you are comparing it to the two famous prayers of the Pharisee and the publican, you're going to have a rough go of it, for it conforms to neither. The Pharisee thanked God he was not as other men, freely trumpeting his own "good works" as righteousness. The publican smote his breast begging mercy upon himself as a sinner for he could see no good in himself in that moment. If Christ asks us to love our enemies, I see no wrong in praying that God grant me that ability where it is lacking. To do so is both a confession of my own sin and lack, as well as a plea to be changed. If it is also "insulting", well, that makes it no less authentic a representation of my own spiritual condition -- imperfect -- and therefore intrinsically cannot be "self-righteous" in nature, for it clearly demonstrates a point of unrighteousness. Quote: You have not accepted any of the other wise counsel I have given you You have offered me no such thing at any time. All you have ever done is attempt to force your way into my core and into my conscience like a rapist, without my consent, so that you can try to increase my sickness and woe by telling me to look at myself in various shades of filthy and worthless. There is no "wisdom" in such counsel -- none at all. I have to keep you out because you have presented yourself as an Hostile, and I am commanded to GUARD this Fortress; that is my job. That is ALL of OUR JOBS, to protect the Citadel of the Sleeping One from being taken by the Enemy until the Hour is Come. If you come wearing the face of an enemy we MUST keep you OUT as surely as the virgin must beat against the rapist must we keep you OUT. Only those showing the True Coin of the Realm may be granted access, and the minting of "I want you to feel bad about yourself for my pleasure" is not the true coin of the Kingdom. It does not have the face of the Christ upon it, nor His inscription. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Amen Rosie - thank you for sharing those quotes! Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosie Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 And thank you, Nico, for posting a very Biblical response to the concerns raised by this thread. I receive daily "Citizen Alerts" from Dobson. What I see more and more in these "alerts" is power to be gleaned and gained. Less and less do I see Jesus proclaimed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Rosie I really believe God is saying to me -- and not just to ME but to US, to all who will hear Him -- that it is time to sound the Third Angel's message, and "give the trumpet a certain sound" (not an uncertain one). This nation has reached a point of no return in its history. Some think it is just the cyclical rise and fall of nations, that they are born, they mature, and they fall into corruption, tyranny and disintegration from within, but we really don't have enough human history to regard such a thing as an inevitable pattern in my view. What we DO have, curiously enough, is the pattern of Rome which went this route, and the United States following as a modern imperialistic imitation thereof on a number of levels. And the book of Revelation clearly predicts these things. And too many folk out there just plain don't know what's going on around them or what it means. Imagine not only being frightened, confused and shocked, but not having these great Truths to anchor you during such upheaval in the world. No wonder the younger generation is so confused. It is so much harder for them to be coming of age in this world than it was even for me during the early 1980s. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Sister Rosie, I see your Christian Education quote and up it one MYP quote. </font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr /> Have you thoughts that you dare not express, that you may one day stand upon the summit of intellectual greatness; that you may sit in deliberative and legislative councils, and help to enact laws for the nation? There is nothing wrong with these aspirations. You may every one of you make your mark, You should be content with no mean attainments. Aim high, and spare no pains to reach the standard. <hr /></blockquote><font class="post"> I guess I would have to say that Dr. Dobson is aiming high and sparing no pain to reach the standard. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Shane where is this quote found in MYP? I'd like to read it in context. When I read that, my automatic interpretation is, of course, having influence to maintain liberty of conscience (civil & religious) in this land and stay the hand that would remove it -- not contribute to the hand that would destroy it. My automatic interpretation is also to advocate for the cause of the fatherless, the widow, the sick, the infirm, the poor, those who are in general less fortunate, as the gospel calls us to do, against the interests of those who can never be satisfied with plenty but continually seek to increase their storehouses and profit margins until the people are beaten down and the faces of the poor are ground into the dust. Additionally with matters pertaining to the spread of diseases, the health of the nation and the public, temperance, moderation, and the widespread interrelated problems of addiction, poverty, homelessness, etc. we need wise and compassionate souls who know true medicine, true healing, the best of both faith AND science, far beyond the calloused voices in this world who are wolves in sheep's clothing -- social darwinists pretending to be servants of the Most High God -- whose advice and counsel amounts to trampling down those they deem "the wretched and the weak" without a modicum of comprehension about the complexities of their needs, sufferings, and issues. Yes, I would agree tenfold that a strong voice of Compassion, filled with the Holy Ghost, is desperately needed to "sit in deliberative and legislative councils, and help to enact laws for the nation." However, I would seriously argue against any contention, suggestion, or insinuation, that the present-day "right wing" provides that voice or serves those purposes, and is free of a darker agenda riding the train of its Rome-inspired robes. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 The quote is on page 36. However not every word that came out of the mouth of EG White was from the mouth of God. Yes, I believed she was inspired but not every word. So I am not big on the "gotcha" quotes from Sister White. Although when she writes, "God showed me in vision..." I do pause and take in the message of the Lord. Howeven many of those messages were for specific people in specific circumstances. You neglect to deal with the pastors that are on the Left. It seems that since their political positions are more like yours, you see no threat from them. Could it be the only reason you see a threat from clergy on the Right is because their political views are not the same as yours? I don't know how much you know about Jesse Jackson but reports have him doing everything you are afraid Dr. Dobson is doing. The difference is Dr. Dobson is in the open. Jackson's Rainbow Coalition should have lost its tax-exempt status years ago. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicodema Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Quote: The quote is on page 36. However not every word that came out of the mouth of EG White was from the mouth of God. Yes, I believed she was inspired but not every word. So I am not big on the "gotcha" quotes from Sister White. Understood -- I am of a similar mind myself. I find her writing interesting and often inspired, particularly as appropriate to guiding this particular church, but like you said, often that guidance was toward particular individuals, and not everyone is good at extracting a "general life lesson" from a set of particularities. Quote: You neglect to deal with the pastors that are on the Left. It seems that since their political positions are more like yours, you see no threat from them. Could it be the only reason you see a threat from clergy on the Right is because their political views are not the same as yours? I'd have to give this some thought; I don't have an answer other than to say my first instinct is to take up for the poor, the oppressed, and the downtrodden. Like Jesus, when He was here, said, He had not come for the righteous but for sinners. That's kind of how I feel. I do realize that trying to "be all things to all people" is more or less futile. We have to pick our battles, so to speak; there is only so much to each of us and it does not do us or those we serve any good to spread ourselves too thinly. Christ might have spent time going to bat against the moral decline of Caeser's empire in His day but He chose to remain focused on His mission, as I feel I am required to remain focused on mine. However, I will give your question more thought, and if anything else occurs to me about it which is helpful to share, I will let you know. Quote "After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 8, 2005 Share Posted January 8, 2005 Quote: Jackson's Rainbow Coalition should have lost its tax-exempt status years ago. Jackson's Raimbow Coalition is limited to the Blacks, not a national movement. Know the difference, Shane. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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