The Auto Industry...

[Robert]

1. Corporations are in business to make a profit.

[Robert]

Poverty in America

[Dr. Shane]

Free trade is fair trade. That means other countries do not charge import taxes on our products and we don't charge import taxes on their products. I believe strongly in free trade. As I stated above, our trade situation with China does need to be adjusted. Our trade agreement with Mexico is much closer to being a fine example of fair trade.

There is a churning in the job market in America. That means people are losing their jobs and switching to other jobs. Until this past year, more jobs were being created than lost. While many unskilled jobs were being lost, the demand for illegal immigrant labor continued to increase because most Americans are have not been interested in many of the unskilled jobs. Since the economy has been slowing, illegal immigrants are actually going back to Mexico due to the lack of available work in the US. When the economy is strong, the churning in the job market is a sign of health. Many of the unskilled workers that lose their jobs receive vocational training which allows them to go back into the workforce in a different industry often at higher pay.

[Sulla]

Robert you still have not told us your plans for how things should work. Please do that because its hard to understand what you want unless you give us the big picture. And the more details the better.

[Robert]

Free trade is fair trade.

This is more nonsense. Unless everyone is under the same rules there's enormous room for corruption, greed and exploitation. Let me give you an example:

I own a burger joint. I comply with the local labor laws; pay my employees at least minimum wages and I follow the DHEC regulations. I have other competition, but we all abide by the same laws.

Then along comes Shane's burger joint. You have friends in high places and they bend the rules for you. Your burgers are cheaper and you use illegal workers.

No longer is the competitive field fair because you have an advantage. So I try to complete, but since my cost in following the law puts me at a disadvantage I'm forced to go out of business.

That, my narrow-minded friend, is unethical and immoral!

[Robert]

Robert you still have not told us your plans for how things should work.

We need to have the same rules apply to all parties. Otherwise you have the corrupt situation we are in now.

Rob

[Robert]

Until this past year, more jobs were being created than lost.

[Robert]

I own a burger joint. I comply with the local labor laws; pay my employees at least minimum wages and I follow the DHEC regulations. I have other competition, but we all abide by the same laws.

Then along comes Shane's burger joint. You have friends in high places and they bend the rules for you. Your burgers are cheaper and you use illegal workers.

No longer is the competitive field fair because you have an advantage. So I try to complete, but since my cost in following the law puts me at a disadvantage I'm forced to go out of business.

James 2:6 ...you have dishonored the poor man. Do not the rich oppress you and drag you into the courts? 7 Do they not blaspheme that noble name by which you are called?

8 If you really fulfill the royal law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you do well; 9 but if you show partiality, you commit sin....

[Sulla]

Quote:

We need to have the same rules apply to all parties. Otherwise you have the corrupt situation we are in now.

Sorry thats not really a good answer. I would like your plan. On exactly how goverment and commerce should be setup if you were in charge.

[Robert]

Quote:

We need to have the same rules apply to all parties. Otherwise you have the corrupt situation we are in now.

Sorry thats not really a good answer. I would like your plan. On exactly how goverment and commerce should be setup if you were in charge.

That's the basics....Look at my "burger joint" illustration. If you are going to have fair trade then you must be under the same rules, period! That's not too hard to understand, is it?

Rob

[Joe_in_RP]

Well its easy to Bash Detroit. They have made many mistakes in marketing and customer service. It appears they have not learned their lesson. I understand why people attack them here.

But people need to understand some economics.

1) The Japanese nameplates build many of their cars here. If any of the big three go bankrupt many suppliers will also go bankrupt. The Japanese nameplate's will have big trouble because they also buy from these suppliers.

2) There are only two manufacturing systems left in North America. Weapon's and Autos. If we lose the autos, life here will change, as it already has for the furniture industry, clothing, food processing and others. Enormous jobs are being lost.

As someone who travels to Asia often and has many friends in Asia, I can tell you wealth is being transferred to Asia.

I don't have the answers but I am not cheering the death of the North American auto industry.

[Dr. Shane]

I absolutely want the American auto industry to survive and prosper. I don't know the means to make that happen.

Free trade is fair trade. All things do not have to be equal for that statement to be true. Each country has its own sovereignty. We can send our navy to block the ports of another nation or we can refuse to trade with them. Both are means to infringe on their sovereignty. Sometimes such actions are justified due to their human rights violations or anti-American activities. However in such situations the right thing to do is not trade with them at all. If they deserve to be traded with it should be free trade going both ways.

Besides weapons and autos, the US also has huge agricultural, pharmaceutical, entertainment, mining and energy industries. So we are not on the edge of collapse. That said, I still believe we need to do what it takes to save the auto industry. I don't know if that means a bailout, loans or chapter 11. I am not convinced of anything along those lines. I am also not convinced that the industry needs to stay in the Detroit-Chicago area.

[Joe_in_RP]

Detroit's thinning population is vividly -- some would say disturbingly -- illustrated in a new map that is creating a buzz in local planning circles...

The photo should have said about 30% of Detroit is now vacant land.

Detroit, where the population peaked at 2 million in the early 1950s, is home to about 900,000 today and is still losing people. The depopulation and demolition of abandoned properties has left the city dotted with thousands of vacant parcels, ranging from single home lots to open fields of many acres....

To see for yourself: Use Google Earth or a similar computer program to fly over the city and see how many vacant parcels you can find. Pitera estimates that all that empty land adds up to about 40 square miles -- nearly the land mass of San Francisco...

Opportunity to evolve

Something, though, must be done.

"We're looking at a city that's over 50% vacant within the next five to 10 years. It's this huge, huge issue," Atkinson says.

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To me its worse that mexico.

This video was two years ago. Its worse now.

[Robert]

Something, though, must be done.

Nothing will be done until the Corporate Lobbyist has no power in Washington. We vote these politicians in and then the Corporate Machine takes over.

[Dr. Shane]

Michigan needs to become a right-to-work state and then it will attract business again. As long as they allow the corrupt unions to reign, business will not choose to build there.

Right-to-work laws turn the Southeast U.S. into a factory for the world.

Quote:

Even as governors in the Northeast and Midwest bemoan the loss of manufacturing jobs to overseas locations, the American South reaps a whirlwind of factory activity. Experts who study these trends say that the impact of labor legislation in the South -- while not usually credited with swaying a corporate decision to locate there -- is often the driving site selection factor...

One look at the map shows the difference between North and South. Every state below the Mason-Dixon line has enacted right-to-work legislation. In the Midwest and Northeast, only one state has made it law: Iowa. Vitner calls it a productivity issue, not just a matter of wages and hours.

"If companies cannot find ways to increase productivity, they are going to shut down and relocate, particularly in a time when they are facing increasing competition from China and India," Vitner says. "In the Southeast, businesses, workers and government all seem to be working together, while in other areas they pull apart."

One expert who has spent decades studying labor trends throughout the South concurs. David Brandon, president of The Pathfinders, a Dallas-based consulting firm, says there is a clear reason why the South is the predominant choice for factory locations.

"Number one is productivity," Brandon says. "Without exception, the productivity you find in manufacturing and export sectors is very, very high. It is six-to-seven percent on average higher than what you experience in the Northeast and certain Midwest states, in terms of worker output per hour and wage dollar. You can expect better labor performance and presumably higher profitability in that region."

[Sulla]

Robert yes I do want more than your simplistic answer.

[Robert]

Michigan needs to become a right-to-work state and then it will attract business again. As long as they allow the corrupt unions to reign, business will not choose to build there.

Yo! Unions came into existence because of corrupt business practices. You see only with tunnel vision, Shane.

[Robert]

Robert yes I do want more than your simplistic answer.

Oh, so you would like me to make it complicated?

[Sulla]

Robert you talk about more than just trade agreements. So yes I would like a detailed answer.

[Robert]

“There’s no such thing as free trade with dictators and oligarchs in these countries, because the market doesn’t determine the costs. There’s no free collective bargaining for workers. That’s a crime, de facto, in many countries, to try to form an independent trade union. There’s no rule of law, bribery. These companies can go there and pollute at will. There’s no judicial independence to make these companies accountable, and they abuse workers and consumers and communities, as the oil companies and the timber companies have on many occasions. Second, these—NAFTA and WTO have to be scrapped. Under those treaties, we can withdraw in six months and give notice of withdrawal and renegotiate these agreements for the following purpose: no more trade agreements that subordinate consumer, union, worker and environmental rights. These are pull-down trade agreements that are allowing fascist and corporate dictators to pull down our standards of living, because they know how to keep their workers in their place at fifty cents an hour. So, any new trade agreements should stick to trade. Any other treaty should be labor, environment and consumer on a level playing field. These trade agreements also have to be open, democratic. They cannot undermine our courts, our regulatory agencies and our legislature.” RN

[Dr. Shane]

Yo! Unions came into existence because of corrupt business practices. You see only with tunnel vision, Shane.

That is not entirely true, but even if it was, two wrongs don't make a right. Would corrupt corporations justify corrupt unions? What is undeniable is that the manufacturing industries in the right-to-work states are better able to compete with foreign competition.

[Dr. Shane]

There’s no free collective bargaining for workers... There’s no rule of law, bribery. These companies can go there and pollute at will. There’s no judicial independence to make these companies accountable, and they abuse workers and consumers and communities, as the oil companies and the timber companies have on many occasions.

This really sounds like propaganda from someone that has never been to these countries, talked with the workers in these factories and seen the change to the communities that these factories bring.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

There’s no free collective bargaining for workers... There’s no rule of law, bribery. These companies can go there and pollute at will. There’s no judicial independence to make these companies accountable, and they abuse workers and consumers and communities, as the oil companies and the timber companies have on many occasions.

This really sounds like propaganda from someone that has never been to these countries, talked with the workers in these factories and seen the change to the communities that these factories bring.

You need to talk with Ralph Nader.

[Dr. Shane]

Ralph Nader is full of propaganda. He is exactly the type of person my "someone" was referring to. I have seen how these factories transform Mexican communities. I have seen how people that could only live in tar-paper shacks with dirt floors have been able to build themselves masonry homes with concrete foundations after getting a job at an American factory. These people went from living with no running water to having flushing toilets and showers. Before the American factories they had outhouses and bathed in wash tubs. They had ant hills in their homes. The American factories transformed their lives. They would by no means claim to being exploited. The idea that they are exploited is prosperous.

[Robert]

Ralph Nader is full of propaganda.