Woody Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Reminded me of CSI. But with CSI ... the victims don't know it is coming. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 ...with out provocation....right, selective thinking! Death and dying is exactly the consequences Hamas was seeking by rocketing Israel. Kick the giants toe log enough and you get stepped on. Innocent bystanders death is terrible and why do the Palestinians continue to blame Israel and not Hamas? They both have the same hate, so it blinds them to reality. The death of the innocent is always used to provoke anger and outrage, it is a tool. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2009 Yes, that is reality, and it is tragic and unfortunate, but real reality requires showing both sides, including the rockets from Hamas killing people in Israel. That situation won't be solved until Hamas accepts the right of Israel to exist and stops shooting its rockets into Israel. I believe Israel has a right to defend itself against constant harassment and attack. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 It is Hamas that wants war, killing, and bombing. Get rid of Hamas and you have peace. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2009 A major problem there is that too many people benefit from violence between Israel and the Palestinians. Hamas, as well as some of the Muslim countries, such as Iran and Syria, don't want permanent peace with Israel. They* never will. Even if the Palestinians had their own state, I believe they would continue to make war against Israel because they don't accept Israel's right to exist there. * Referring to governments, not necessarily to all the people in those countries. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 4, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 4, 2009 Get rid of Hamas and you have peace. That's what is said about most terrorist groups but in the end Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas! Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted January 4, 2009 Share Posted January 4, 2009 Originally Posted By: Redwood Get rid of Hamas and you have peace. That's what is said about most terrorist groups but in the end Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas! Not if they get rid of them by VOTING them OUT. It is up to the voters. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 5, 2009 Members Share Posted January 5, 2009 And where are the pictures of the destruction in Israel. Again as I have mentioned many times!!!! Nothing is said about the bombing of Israel, all the human bombs, the rockets that have been sent into Israel for the last 50 years,etc. But as soon as Israel says enough we have to stop this, than all and even here on the adventistforum speak out against what Israel is doing. I was against the US going into Iraq on the flimzist of evidence, but with Israel going into Gaza there is so much evidence of bombing and the killing of Israelis beyond a shadow of doubt. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2009 There has been extensive coverage of the effects of the rocket attacks on Israel. Just google it and you will see. To say that "nothing is said is at best a stretch at worse a lie. How many Israelis were killed in the last 8 years due to rocket attacks? 20, 30, 40, 100? I'm sure you know. Does this justify the death of 500 Palestinians in just over a week. Let say 50% of those were terrorists. 250 civilians slaughtered is ok then. Its like the UK government bombing South Armagh after the bombings in the 70's! Its OK then for India to bomb Kashmir in retaliation for Mumbai. Lets say 2,500 lives in a bombing campaign. I suppose that would be reasonable. Israelis are simply ensuring more pain and trouble for its children. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 5, 2009 Members Share Posted January 5, 2009 i watch the news every day and only in the past 2 weeks has there been anything on the news about the conflict between the 2 parties. In the previous 6 months I think I can count on my 2 hands. And pretty much nothing on this forum. Which is fine but when we only start talking now only to condemn Israel that bothers me. And I don't condone what Israel is doing, and I think I have said that enough times also. And nothing justifies the death of the Palestinians or any other group. But nothing is mentioned about a group of people that purposely hind behind civilians. And set up there places of operations in hospitals etc. So that whoever decides to retaliate will have to kill innocent people. I am with the president elect and the present president in what they have to say about Hamas. Many Israelis have been killed not just from the rocket attacks but many more from the suicide bombers that have been going into Israel for 50 years. I wonder how many Israeli suicide bombers there have been in gaza or the west bank? How many Israeli terrorists have we heard of? I work in printing and we used to deal with the company that was from Israel, they had Israelis and Palestinians working for them side by side with no problem. I used to talk with them and to a man they said that they need to get rid of the terrorists who just preach the killing of all Jews. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: Israelis are simply ensuring more pain and trouble for its children. This is upside-down logic. Israel does not cause the attacks on it. Hamas attacks Isreal simply because Israel exists. As long as Israel exists, Hamas or other extremist Muslims will attack it. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Originally Posted By: lazarus That's what is said about most terrorist groups but in the end Israel will have to negotiate with Hamas! Not if they get rid of them by VOTING them OUT. It is up to the voters. Ahhh red. Can you vote against a gun? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: Israelis are simply ensuring more pain and trouble for its children. This is upside-down logic. Israel does not cause the attacks on it. Hamas attacks Isreal simply because Israel exists. As long as Israel exists, Hamas or other extremist Muslims will attack it. So, what's your solution? Get rid of the fifth of the population on this planet? You say that if Muslims wanted peace there would be peace, but why do they have to compromise? The same could be said about Israeli. Does a piece of land really worth lives of millions? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 The Muslims have a lot of land. This idea that the Palestinians have no where to live is only true because no place in the Arab world wants to open their doors to them. The lines drawn in the Middle East are artificial lines drawn by colonial powers. Palestinians are not a peculiar race of people different from other Arabs in the area. What is the solution? Until the Arabs decide they want a solution there will be no solution. As long as Arabs continue to want war there will continue to be war. The solution is in the hands of the Arabs - there is is a solution. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 So, why should they suffer? Why wouldn't Israel pick a fight with someone near their military strength. The even bigger problem is that Muslim world implicates US by default, because Israel could not have function both financially and militarily without US support. So, in terms of a Blow back situations... Muslims will eventually seek the retaliation on US. I think it's fair to say that US almost unilaterally supports Israel even in moments like these, where hundreds of people who had nothing to do with the attacks are dying, which does not solve anything but only pours oil in the fire of the conflict. So, if Arabs decide that there is no solution and compromise... it justifies completely marginalizing and starving out a nation of people? I don't see your logic in that. It is obvious that Muslim world will not cave in... it is likewise obvious that Israel will not pull back. Why 3 billion a year for Israel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2009 So, why should they suffer? Why wouldn't Israel pick a fight with someone near their military strength. It has to do with the fact that the rockets are falling on them from the Palestinians in Gaza. Actually, if they find proof that Iran provided the rockets, they might decide at some point to bomb Iran. How long would we put up with rockets come into San Diego from Tijuana? Not as long as Israel has put up with them. Nor would I expect the Mexicans to put up with rockets coming from the US into Mexico. If we allowed it to happen and didn't stop it, Mexico would have every right to invade in order to stop it. And so Israel has every right to defend itself against those kinds of attacks. Either Hamas stops the attacks or they get destroyed. Hamas has to decide if they want peace or not. If they want it, then they must stop the attacks. Quote: The even bigger problem is that Muslim world implicates US by default, because Israel could not have function both financially and militarily without US support. I favor supporting Israel. It doesn't matter what the Muslims want the US to do. We don't go by what Muslims want when it comes to what nations we are friends with. Quote: So, in terms of a Blow back situations... Muslims will eventually seek the retaliation on US. Do you think then that the US should allow Muslims to determine who our friends are, which nations we support? I don't think so. We've never allowed that kind of thing before. We don't consult other nations who they think we ought to be allies with. Quote: I think it's fair to say that US almost unilaterally supports Israel even in moments like these, where hundreds of people who had nothing to do with the attacks are dying, which does not solve anything but only pours oil in the fire of the conflict. Why shouldn't we support Israel? Israel was attacked by rockets coming from an enemy that has sworn to destroy them. Israel has a right to defend itself. You can't ask a people and nation to put up with constant rocket attacks. Israel is certainly not trying to kill innocent people. That is what Hamas does. Hamas complains of the innocent dying, yet Hamas itself knew the consequences of its rocket attacks on Israel. That would be like striking someone on the cheek and acting surprised when he strikes back. Hamas knew exactly what the response would be to those rocket attacks. In fact, people who have worked with Hamas say that Hamas wanted to provoke a strong, violent reaction from Israel in order for the world to condemn Israel. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Why 3 billion a year for Israel? Well,,, the US is not a source of unlimited funds. I favor giving Israel all the money they need to defend themselves. If 3 billion isn't enough we probably need to give them more. One of the great things about Israel is that they fight their own battles. All we have to help them with is money. That is a good ally. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 John, I don't think your comparison of Mexico is fair. Mexico is a resourceful country that can deal with rogue military groups on their own. If a rogue military group kept attacking US, and US would bomb Mexico City... there probably would be a WWIII on our hands. The issue here is quite different. Palestinian people are being used by Muslims as a buffer zone and to inflict the pain and fear on Israeli, there's no doubt about that. That's why the borders remain closed for the refugees. Otherwise no one would want to live in Palestine. At the same time Israel plays right into that tactics by bombing innocent civilians. While I'm not justifying the former... but you do. And that's what saddens me. That's why I say, if Israel does have bones with Hamas... why not fight Hamas by means of ground invasion? But they don't even let the Red Cross in in fear of accidentally bombing the paramedics. These people are starving to death. It's inhumane. All you can say is that Israel has right to defend itself, but do Palestinian refuges have right to live? Why not US pressuring Egypt to open borders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2009 I don't think your comparison of Mexico is fair. Mexico is a resourceful country that can deal with rogue military groups on their own. If a rogue military group kept attacking US, and US would bomb Mexico City... there probably would be a WWIII on our hands. I didn't make the comparison because I believed the comparison is exact in every particular. I might have just as well compared it to rockets coming from Canada into Seattle, or from the American side into Canada. My only point is that a nation has a right to stop such attacks and to invade if that is necessary. These rocket attacks on Israel have been going for a long time. They stop for a while, then start up again. Quote: The issue here is quite different. Palestinian people are being used by Muslims as a buffer zone and to inflict the pain and fear on Israeli, there's no doubt about that. That's why the borders remain closed for the refugees. Then why isn't there condemnation of the Muslims who are doing it? Here is what the news reports say, Quote: Israel's military chief said Hamas fighters were trying to draw soldiers deeper into Gaza's sprawling, densely packed urban areas, where the military said militants were shielding themselves behind civilians. "You entered like rats," Hamas spokesman Ismail Radwan told Israeli soldiers in a statement on Hamas' Al Aqsa TV. "Gaza will be a graveyard for you, God willing," he said. Israeli forces have not yet entered urban areas, said Brig. Gen. Avi Benayahu, the chief army spokesman. He warned, however, that the operation was not a "school trip" and would be long and demanding. The ground invasion risks turning into intense urban combat, with house-to-house fighting, sniper fire and booby-traps. Hamas is believed to have some 20,000 gunmen and has had time to prepare. Seems like that would be a crime against humanity, to use civilians as a shield. Quote: At the same time Israel plays right into that tactics by bombing innocent civilians. Israel is not intentionally trying to kill innocent civilians, like Hamas has done and is doing. Yet Israel can't allow Hamas' tactics to keep them from stopping the rocket attacks. That is why Hamas is trying to use the civilians as a shield. They hope that Israel will be forced by to stop, and if they keep up the invasion, they hope that Israel will do such damage that the world will oppose Israel and sympathize with the Palestinians and Hamas. Quote: That's why I say, if Israel does have bones with Hamas... why not fight Hamas by means of ground invasion? Israel is making a ground invasion right now. And people are calling for Israel to stop the ground invasion, even as they refuse to demand that Hamas stop attacking Israel. As long as Hamas attacks Israel, Israel will be right to do what it can to stop the attacks against it. If Hamas wants peace, let them declare that Israel has a right to exist and let Hamas stop attacking Israel. Let Hamas discourage suicide bombings instead of encouraging hatred against Israel. It's well known that Hamas teaches Palestinian children to hate Israel from the time they are very young. Let them put a stop to that. That would go a long ways towards bringing about peace. The reports are that, "Israel has four main demands: and end to Gaza rocket fire, a halt to Palestinian attacks, international supervision of a truce and an agreement to stop Hamas from re-arming. Hamas demands a cessation of Israeli attacks and opening of vital Gaza-Israel cargo crossings, Gaza's main lifeline." It seems to me that Israel's demands are very reasonable. They're demanding what any nation would demand. It says that Hamas is demanding that Israel cease the attack, yet the report elsewhere says that Hamas is continuing to rain down rockets on Israel even as Israel is invading Gaza. They should realize that Israel can't stop the invasion as long as Hamas is continuing to send its rockets into Israel. If Hamas is serious about peace and really expects Israel to cease their attacks, Hamas must first stop their rocket attacks. Quote: All you can say is that Israel has right to defend itself, but do Palestinian refuges have right to live? Why not US pressuring Egypt to open borders? Why don't Egypt as well as Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iran open its borders to the Palestinians? They have the territory. If they all shared the responsibility of taking those people in, it would be fairly easy to absorb them. They could have done it decades ago. I believe the evidence is that they haven't done it because they really don't want peace with Israel. Those nations find it useful to keep the hostilities in that region going between Israel and the surrounding nations over the Palestinian question. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2009 As he so often does, Glenn Greenwald has something illuminating to say on the question: http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/04/terrorism/ Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fccool Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 Quote: If you see Palestinians as something less than civilized human beings: as "barbarians" -- just as if you see Americans as infidels warring with God or Jews as sub-human rats -- then it naturally follows that civilian deaths are irrelevant, perhaps even something to cheer. For people who think that way, arguments about "proportionality" won't even begin to resonate -- such concepts can't even be understood -- because the core premise, that excessive civilian deaths are horrible and should be avoided at all costs, isn't accepted. Why should a superior, civilized, peaceful society allow the welfare of violent, hateful barbarians to interfere with its objectives? How can the deaths or suffering of thousands of barbarians ever be weighed against the death of even a single civilized person? Quote: So many of these conflicts -- one might say almost all of them -- end up shaped by the same virtually universal deficiency: excessive tribalistic identification (i.e.: the group with which I was trained to identify is right and good and just and my group's enemy is bad and wrong and violent), which causes people to view the world only from the perspective of their side, to believe that X is good when they do it and evil when it's done to them. X can be torture, or the killing of civilians in order to "send a message" (i.e., Terrorism), or invading and occupying other people's land, or using massive lethal force against defenseless populations, or seeing one's own side as composed of real humans and the other side as sub-human, evil barbarians. As George Orwell wrote in Notes on Nationalism -- with perfect prescience to today's endless conflicts (h/t Hume's Ghost): All nationalists have the power of not seeing resemblances between similar sets of facts. A British Tory will defend self-determination in Europe and oppose it in India with no feeling of inconsistency. Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them, and there is almost no kind of outrage — torture, the use of hostages, forced labour, mass deportations, imprisonment without trial, forgery, assassination, the bombing of civilians — which does not change its moral colour when it is committed by ‘our’ side ... The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them I think that's exactly my plight that is completely being dismissed as "well that's a reality of war". I think it's quite ironic when people argue for the "defenseless human shields" and at the same time justify bombing these human shields because of some "God given right" of defense. It's disappointing to see this coming from Christians likewise? Don't we suppose to hold human life to a higher standard than the rest of the world? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted January 5, 2009 Share Posted January 5, 2009 John, I don't think your comparison of Mexico is fair. Mexico is a resourceful country that can deal with rogue military groups on their own. If a rogue military group kept attacking US, and US would bomb Mexico City... there probably would be a WWIII on our hands. Actually Mexico has rogue military groups, they are called drug lords. Sometimes they pay off Mexican military officers so that real Mexican Army soldiers help them bring drugs across the boarder. On more than one occasion these soldiers have shot at our Border Patrol trying to stop them. The Mexican/US boarder is a very hot zone with a lot of violence. This is especially true in West Texas in the El Paso zone. So what is the difference between Mexico and its drug lords and Palestine and Hamas? The Mexican government is actually cracking down on its drug lords and trying to put them out of business. The Palestinian people are electing Hamas to be their government. Big difference. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 5, 2009 Members Share Posted January 5, 2009 Excellent Posts John317, what most people are not seeing in all this, is that is exactly what Hamas and Hezbolah wants, is that everybody see Israel as the aggresah. And the other thing that people seem to be unwilling to see is the Arab worlds intention of the complete destruction and annilation of Israel. This is something that has been in effect even before Israel was even declared a nation. Like I mentioned above and also in your example of bombs being sent in from Mexico and or Canada how long would we wait before we retaliate. Look how we went into Iraq with only flimsey evidence. But yet Israel waits 6 months with rockets being shot into there country almost if not every single day. And how many times have they done cease fire truces only to have the terrorist restock and start the cycle all over again. I don't think that you can count them on your hands and feet. Itsw one thing to have a disagreement with your neighbors but to live knowing that your neighbors want you died is something else. But Israel has done that since 1948, just after they lost 6 million jews to the nazi's, and yet they were and are willing to live with the palestinians. They even have palestinians in there government. How many Arab countries allow Jews into there governments? absolutely none, a big 0. Again very good posts john317. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted January 5, 2009 Members Share Posted January 5, 2009 Exactly Shane. And not only that the poor palestinians are lead to believe that Hamas is going to do them good. It was Israel that was taking care of them in the beginning of all this until the PLO, and than the other terrorist groups started to play that card with them. Pretty sad. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 5, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 5, 2009 Actually Mexico has rogue military groups, they are called drug lords. Sometimes they pay off Mexican military officers so that real Mexican Army soldiers help them bring drugs across the boarder. On more than one occasion these soldiers have shot at our Border Patrol trying to stop them. The Mexican/US boarder is a very hot zone with a lot of violence. This is especially true in West Texas in the El Paso zone.... Hey Shane, it's the same in Tijuana, extremely violent, with the violence spilling over onto the American side. I live pretty close and my family crosses the border all the time. I have relatives going both ways every day. The state police are involved with the gangs. My wife's brother lost a son because of a shoot-out between the police and the cartel. He was just in the wrong place. Every week they find heads and bodies in plastic bags. The Mexican military has taken over because no one can trust the state police. Last week the police stole one of my nephew's trucks and only returned it after he paid a ransom. This is the police! And since only the police are permitted to have guns, the only ones who are armed are the police and the gangs. The ordinary citizens are helpless to do anything. The media often doesn't report anything because too many reporters are being killed by the gangs. Over 85% of these crimes are never solved, and many are not even seriously investigated because the government officials are intimidated by the gangs. I'm sure you know about these things and are not surprised, but many people don't realize just how terrible it is. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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