Striking Deep Into Israel, Hamas Employs an Upgraded Rocket Arsenal

[John317]

... yet Israel waits 6 months with rockets being shot into there country almost if not every single day..... Its one thing to have a disagreement with your neighbors but to live knowing that your neighbors want you died is something else. But Israel has done that since 1948, just after they lost 6 million jews to the nazi's, and yet they were and are willing to live with the palestinians. They even have palestinians in there government. How many Arab countries allow Jews into there governments? absolutely none, a big 0.

Those are really good points, pk. It's good you point these things out because it's common for these facts to go unmentioned or be forgotten.

[fccool]

Quote:

... yet Israel waits 6 months with rockets being shot into there country almost if not every single day..... Its one thing to have a disagreement with your neighbors but to live knowing that your neighbors want you died is something else.

Don't speak for the entire country or populations. Entire populations should not suffer because of the actions of few... especially if the population is not in power to do anything about it. There is ALWAYS a diplomatic way of solving problems. Even Olmert stated that Israel should retrieve from the occupied land and abandon the settlements if they want any chance at peace. Apparently Israeli ex-prime minister does not know what he is talking about.

Quote:

But Israel has done that since 1948, just after they lost 6 million jews to the nazi's, and yet they were and are willing to live with the palestinians. They even have palestinians in there government. How many Arab countries allow Jews into there governments? absolutely none, a big 0.

So, what you are saying is that Palestinians hate Jews, but they are willing to participate in Jewish government ? Jewish population is an insignificant minority, which may explain lack of governing positions. Granted that in many Muslim countries being a Muslim is a pre-requisite... just like being a believer is a pre-requisite to sit on a church board. I think it's fair to say that these countries are openly run by Muslim law and make no bones about telling you that in advance.

Yet, even when given an opportunity to leave, many Jews in Iran are not willing to do so... read this article:

http://www.forward.com/articles/iranian-jews-reject-outside-calls-to-leave-1/

Quote:

HIAS declined to comment on its efforts to promote emigration, but some observers claim that the main reason Iranian Jews have chosen to stay is that they are, for the most part, free to practice their faith. “Iranian Jews have a comfortable Jewish life,” said Meir Javedanfar, an Iranian-born Middle East analyst now living in Israel.

So, I think it would be an unfair statement that all Jews are hated in Iran. Zionist Jews are, but for reasons that I've mentioned before.

[lazarus]

i watch the news every day and only in the past 2 weeks has there been anything on the news about the conflict between the 2 parties. In the previous 6 months I think I can count on my 2 hands.

pk

That's simply because there was a cease fire between Hamas and Israel that started in June. Both parties negotiated the cease fire.

Both sides will have to talk sooner or later. Can somebody tell me the name of one terror organization that has been defeated militarily?

[lazarus]

As usual Bravus (see his earlier post) finds some good stuff! I have to post a paragraph or two so that we didn't miss it.

There are few concepts more elastic and subject to exploitation than "Terrorism," the all-purpose justifying and fear-mongering term. But if it means anything, it means exactly the mindset which Goldfarb is expressing: slaughtering innocent civilians in order to "send a message," to "deter" political actors by making them fear that continuing on the same course will result in the deaths of civilians and -- best of all, from the Terrorist's perspective -- even their own children and other family members.

To the Terrorist, by definition, that innocent civilians and even children are killed isn't a regrettable cost of taking military action. It's not a cost at all. It's a benefit. It has strategic value. Goldfarb explicitly says this: "to wipe out a man's entire family, it's hard to imagine that doesn't give his colleagues at least a moment's pause."

That, of course, is the very same logic that leads Hamas to send suicide bombers to slaughter Israeli teenagers in pizza parlors and on buses and to shoot rockets into their homes. It's the logic that leads Al Qaeda to fly civilian-filled airplanes into civilian-filled office buildings. And it's the logic that leads infinitely weak and deranged people like Goldfarb and Peretz to find value in the killing of innocent Palestinians, including -- one might say, at least in Goldfarb's case: especially -- children.

[Bravus]

Thanks Laz.

The concentration on the part of those supporting Israel here is on the length of time the rocket attacks had been going on, and the number and kind of rockets fired (hence the topic title). What's often ignored is that all those rockets had killed one person in all that time. Just one. Every death is a tragedy, but are bombing raids that have killed over 400 and injured hundreds more and a full scale invasion really a proportionate response to *one* death?

[fccool]

Just change the colors and words to reflect Israel, and perhaps you'll get the mentality. Nationalism mentality of "WE" and "US" overshadows individual misery and suffering. Thus a death of 1 American/Israeli is enough to seek revenge on thousands, and perhaps millions.

Quote:

American girls and American guys, will always stand up and salute.

We'll always recognize, when we see ol' glory flying,

There's a lot of men dead,

So we can sleep in peace at night when we lay down our heads.

My daddy served in the army where he lost his right eye,

But he flew a flag out in our yard 'til the day that he died.

He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me.

To grow up and live happy in the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love is fallin' under attack.

A mighty sucker-punch came flying in from somewhere in the back.

Soon as we could see clearly through our big black eye,

Man, we lit up your world like the fourth of July.

Hey, Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,

And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.

And the eagle will fly and it's gonna be hell,

When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell.

And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you.

Ah, brought to you, courtesy of the red, white and blue.

Instrumental break.

Oh, justice will be served and the battle will rage:

This big dog will fight when you rattle his cage.

An' you'll be sorry that you messed with the U.S. of A.

'Cos we'll put a boot in your ass, it's the American way.

Hey, Uncle Sam put your name at the top of his list,

And the Statue of Liberty started shaking her fist.

And the eagle will fly and it's gonna be hell,

When you hear Mother Freedom start ringing her bell.

And it'll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you.

Ah, brought to you, courtesy of the red, white and blue.

Oh, oh.

Of the red, white and blue.

Oh, hey, oh.

Of my Red, White and Blue.

How does ideas of nationalism be consistent with ideas of Christianity? When someone asks you to shoot another human being, or bomb a neighbourhood that you know will result in civilian casualties... how can you live with knowing that?

[Dr. Shane]

Entire populations should not suffer because of the actions of few... especially if the population is not in power to do anything about it.

But they do and have since the beginning of the world. That is just ugly reality. I never ate a forbidden fruit from any tree but I am suffering.

[Dr. Shane]

are bombing raids that have killed over 400 and injured hundreds more and a full scale invasion really a proportionate response to *one* death?

Responding proportionally Israel would make absolutely no sense. That would be like batting a bee hive. It would just make them angrier. If Israel is going to respond they have to hold nothing back and go full bore.

[John317]

... How does ideas of nationalism be consistent with ideas of Christianity? When someone asks you to shoot another human being, or bomb a neighbourhood that you know will result in civilian casualties... how can you live with knowing that?

Depends on how you define nationalism. I am a nationalist to the extent that I love my country and wouldn't do anything to harm my fellow countrymen. I would not betray my country and the government that the people of this country elected. It means that as long as it doesn't tell me to do something contrary to God's commandments, I will obey the laws of my community and of the government where I live. If I lived in Mexico, I would feel the same obligation to be a good citizen there as well.

I wouldn't take up a weapon to kill anyone even if the government told me to, because I believe that such an order would contradict the commandments of God.

But I respect the decisions of other Christians who do take up weapons for the government and fight in the military. I wouldn't say they are "lost" because they make a decision different from mine.

My love for my country doesn't mean I don't care about or like other countries or the people who live in those other nations. I have relatives living in Mexico, for instance, and I wouldn't do anything to harm them. I feel the same for other countries. I believe we should do what we can to help other nations and people who are less fortunate than we are.

But I do recognize the necessity of nations being able to defend themselves against bombings and attack, and I support their right to do it, and that includes the right of Israel to do what they have to in order to protect its citizens.

[phkrause]

I didn't say Iran hated Jews. I said Arabs hated Jews. Iranians are not Arabs. The Arab countries I believe are Jordan, Lebanon, especially Saudi Arabia more than any of the rest, but all the countries in the area including Iran and Iraq are muslims. I checked out that link it was very interesting and its been a long time since I've heard the name "HIAS". I didn't realize that they were still in business, they are the Jewish organization that brought my family over to the US from germany back in 1951. I think you missed one of my posts about the jews and palestinians that work and live side by side in many Israeli cities. I used to know a number of them when they came over to the US to fix there equipment at our printing company. They had mutual respect for each other. The Jews had no problem with the Palestinians, and the Palestinians had no problem with the Jews. But they both had there problems with the Palestinians that lived in Gaza or the west bank allowing the terrorist group Hamas to so easily munipulate them. Yes I agree that the Jews need to retreat from gaza and the west bank and so do all if not most of the jews. But the problem is that the terrorist groups won't let them. The Palestinians themselves want peace but anytime that they have a cease fire Hamas says they don't have to abide by that.

pk

[phkrause]

That's not completely correct. Were not talking about just rockets alone. How many suicide bombers have come into Israel and killed not just 1 or 2 people but hundreds of people in the last 50 years. Why do you think that Israel was building those stupid walls, it was to limit the suicide bombers. And it was working. So than they had to come up with something else did they not. That's when they went to bombing Israel. There will be no peace as long as one group wants the other group annilated. Israel has never said that they wanted the Palestinians died, but Hamas and Hezbollah want all Israelis died. Or have you not heard that?

pk

[John317]

What's often ignored is that all those rockets had killed one person in all that time. Just one...

What time period are you describing when you say only one person was killed?

During the recent rocket attacks, prior to Israel's invasion of Gaza, there were far more than one person killed-- unless the news reports were wrong, and I don't think they were. There were at least 3 people killed in Israel from rocket attacks last Monday alone.

But even so, Israel can't just sit and watch such attacks happen, simply because those attacks didn't kill a lot of people. If people are shooting at your house or family, you don't wait until they kill a substantial number before you do what you can to stop the shooting.

Put yourself in the position of the Israeli government. Let us suppose they didn't didn't take any action because the rockets only killed 3 or 4 people. Then a week later, a rocket blows up a church or school and kills dozens or more people. Wouldn't the people have a right to protest the lack of action on the part of the government to protect them and stop the rockets BEFORE the worst attack? After all, they have had plenty of warning that there are people trying to kill them with rockets. Why wait like a sitting duck?

[aldona]

Just sticking my head in here, not a reply to anyone specifically...

The whole situation in the Middle East just makes me really sad. I refuse to demonize one side or another (I have both Jewish and Muslim friends/neighbors/colleagues) but I just recall what Proverbs 16:7 has to say...

Quote:

When a man's ways are pleasing to the LORD, he makes even his enemies live at peace with him.

aldona

[Dr. Shane]

So I guess neither the Jewish or Islamic ways are pleasing to the Lord. I suspect that comes as no newsflash the God's remnant Seventh-day Adventist people.

[fccool]

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But that was exactly what I was asking about reconciling one's faith with nationalism. Can you support Israel's actions knowing that thousands of people who had little to do with attacks will be killed? [/quote']

How do you define "nationalism"? Does what I say about my viewpoint constitute "nationalism" in your thinking? Are patriotic people the same as "nationalists" to you?

I don't know that thousands of people are going to be killed in this invasion by Israel of the Gaza territory. I hope that doesn't happen, and it wouldn't if Hamas would stop fighting now and recognize the right of Israel to exist as a nation. (I'm hearing that Hamas is even now urging Palestinians to make Gaza a graveyard for Israel.)

But why don't people who support the Palestinians think of that when Hamas is sending rockets into Israel? Why don't you hear as much protest and anger over the rockets as you do over the Israeli reaction to the rockets? Maybe if people would be as outraged about the rocket attacks as they are about the Israeli response, there wouldn't need to be a response because the rockets would have stopped flying.

Would you be willing to demand that Hamas recognize the right of Israel to exist and that Hamas disarm and stop shooting rockets into Israel? Stop teaching children to hate Israel? Stop digging tunnels under the borders for the purpose of smuggling weapons? And stop strapping bombs on children and women and young men in order to randomly kill innocent Israelis? These are some of the things that have to be stopped if there's going to be permanent peace in that area.

[fccool]

John, "recognition" is not at stake here. If it would be that easy, then this conflict would be over by now. To quote Hamas:

"The sticking point of 'recognition' has been used as a litmus test to judge Palestinians. Yet as I have said before, a state may have a right to exist, but not absolutely at the expense of other states, or more important, at the expense of millions of human individuals and their rights to justice. Why should anyone concede Israel's 'right' to exist, when it has never even acknowledged the foundational crimes of murder and ethnic cleansing by means of which Israel took our towns and villages, our farms and orchards, and made us a nation of refugees?"

Such recognition will not cause Israel to withdraw from Palestine territory, and to quit marginalization and segmentation of Palestinians. It's merely a "what If" justification via conditions that Israel knows Hamas will not accept.

Now, both sides are guilty of blatant nationalism of worse kind. Nationalism ussually puts the movement, a nation above individual freedom/desires. A good example would be "Ask now what your country can do for you, but ask what you can do for your country"(I suggest that unquestionability is implied).

A patriot may rebel against the status quo... seeing if the current governments are decremental to the community and cultural values that he adores. While, nationalism usually does not even question the superiority of such values, because to a nationalist these are "self evident".

For example, if Barak Obama is accused of not wearing flag pins around the world, or not saluting to a flag, or not holding his hand to the heart when national anthem plays... he is accused of not being a nationalist, not being a patriot. Not that patriot can not do the same things, but there's a difference in reasoning.

Patriots recognize the wrongdoings of their own countries and try to correct it. Nationalists do not, because whatever happens... their nation is still #1 and loyalty to their nation remains solid.

I with all honesty can tell you that in my view, a life of American is not worth more than a life of a Jew, or life of a Muslim. And why should it.

I guess the question is not whether you love your country. I love my country in a sense that I was born there, and I love the people and communities where I grew up... YET, I despise the corrupt system that the government of that country is running, which is nothing short of legalized thievery. Am I not being patriotic?

[lazarus]

I've got this growing feeling that this attack on Gaza will go the way of the recent war with Lebanon. A lot of people will die, the rockets will keep coming, Hamas will be damaged but will claim victory!!! This will be another failed attempt to destroy terror will military might.

[John317]

I think you're right, Lazarus. Very tragic all the way around.

Why doesn't Hamas stop the rockets and acknowledge the right of Israel to exist? The problem, as I see it, is that Hamas encourages people to attack Israel through suicide bombings and whatever other means are at their disposal.

Hamas realizes that as long as they continue to send rockets into Israel, Israel isn't going to recall its military from Gaza. So if they want peace and if they really want Israel to stop killing people in Gaza, why don't they stop sending the rockets?

It seems to me that Hamas' intention was to provoke the invasion and to keep Israel in Gaza because they know the world will condemn Israel for its response.

What do you believe it would take for Hamas and the other Palestinian paramilitary groups, to lay down their arms, accept Israel, and live in peace with the Jews?

[fccool]

It's like asking you... Why won't you renounce your faith . They believe it's the way to go. Of course from our perspective it's hard to understand, but I doubt Hamas will lay down the arms until the last one of them is dead.

Still, it's no reason for Palestinian suffering the "blowback" from Israel.

[John317]

John, "recognition" is not at stake here. If it would be that easy, then this conflict would be over by now...

Has Hamas ever acknowledged the right of Israel to exist as a state in Palestine? If it is not such a big deal, then why don't they do it?

[John317]

It's like asking you... Why won't you renounce your faith . They believe it's the way to go. Of course from our perspective it's hard to understand, but I doubt Hamas will lay down the arms until the last one of them is dead.

Still, it's no reason for Palestinian suffering the "blowback" from Israel.

I think it would help if the Palestinians let it be known that they don't accept Hamas and its practices. They should do to Hamas what the Iraqi people did to al-Qaeda-- reject them and their violence.

I have no doubt that Israel itself wants to live in peace with its neighbors, including the Palestinians. Warfare and conflict don't work to the advantage of most Israelis but it does work to the advantage of organizations like Hamas.

Did you see the program on Fox called, "Escape from Hamas"?

[phkrause]

Good post aldona. It is very sad that people that are related thru there father Abraham just can't seem to get along. I believe that's because neither party looks to Jesus. Unfortunately the Jews don't accept him as the Messiah that they are still looking for. And the Arabs don't accept him as the true son of God. Not saying that this would make a big difference but at least they would have someone to look up to, not just there hatred for each other.

pk

[John317]

A few years before Arafat died, he was quoted as saying, "There's not enough land on earth for the children of Ishmael and the children of Isaac to live side by side. One or the other has to go."

The Qur'an says Ishmael was the son of promise and that he was the one that God asked Abraham to offer as a sacrifice. Of course the Jews and Christians say just the opposite.

[phkrause]

Yes I've heard that. I also recall YA saying that, before he died of course, he wished that he had taken the deal that President Clinton had brokered between the Palestinians and the Jews, a number of years ago now.

pk