In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel

[John317]

In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel

By Shashank Bengali, McClatchy Newspapers – Fri Jan 9, 5:03 pm ET

RAMALLAH , West Bank — Since the war in Gaza began two weeks ago, Rami Hamdan has oscillated between two emotions: sadness at the deaths of Palestinian civilians and anger, not only at Israel but also at its Palestinian foe, the militant Islamist group Hamas .

"Of course I am unhappy about the killings," said Hamdan, a 30-year-old building inspector in Ramallah , the de facto capital of the West Bank . "But Hamas is also responsible. They breached the truce. Israel is an aggressive entity at the end of the day, and Hamas knew this could happen."

Not many Palestinians will say that out loud in the West Bank these days. Most people voice outrage about Israel's offensive in the Hamas -controlled Gaza Strip , which by Friday had killed nearly 800 people, two-fifths of them women and children.

Below the surface, however, many in the West Bank are conflicted. A violent rift between Hamas and the secular Fatah party, which controls the West Bank , has left many unsure of their political future and fearful that their own territory could be engulfed in yet another round of battles with Israel .

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/mcclatchy/20090109/wl_mcclatchy/3141171

[phkrause]

Absolutely the Palestinians need to be upset with Hamas. They have lied to them from the beginning. I think that the longer this goes on the more they will see what Hamas is doing. The are hiding behind women and children. The have been launching their missiles from places that if the Israeli army fires back will hit places were the Palestinians are hiding. And that goes for Hezbollah too. The do the same thing. But they go even further, they give there people food at least, work to do, but still are lying to the Lebonese anyway. It is sad and I pray for the fighting to stop.

pk

[fccool]

The following is excerpt from transcript of an ex Zionist Jew, Benjamin Friedman. I hope it will shed some light behind the conflict... German and Muslim view on it. Currently any literature contained Friedman's writings/speeches is banned in Germany today. This speech was made in 1960s in case you are wondering, and Friedman was one of those guys who were pals with many important people of the day on international level.

[fccool]

World War I broke out in the summer of 1914. Nineteen-hundred and fourteen was the year in which World War One broke out. There are few people here my age who remember that. Now that war was waged on one side by Great Britain, France, and Russia; and on the other side by Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey. What happened?

Within two years Germany had won that war: not alone won it nominally, but won it actually. The German submarines, which were a surprise to the world, had swept all the convoys from the Atlantic Ocean, and Great Britain stood there without ammunition for her soldiers, stood there with one week's food supply facing her -- and after that, starvation.

At that time, the French army had mutinied. They lost 600,000 of the flower of French youth in the defense of Verdun on the Somme. The Russian army was defecting. They were picking up their toys and going home, they didn't want to play war anymore, they didn't like the Czar. And the Italian army had collapsed.

Now Germany -- not a shot had been fired on the German soil. Not an enemy soldier had crossed the border into Germany. And yet, here was Germany offering England peace terms. They offered England a negotiated peace on what the lawyers call a status quo ante basis. That means: “Let's call the war off, and let everything be as it was before the war started.”

Well, England, in the summer of 1916 was considering that. Seriously! They had no choice. It was either accepting this negotiated peace that Germany was magnanimously offering them, or going on with the war and being totally defeated.

While that was going on, the Zionists in Germany, who represented the Zionists from Eastern Europe, went to the British War Cabinet and -- I am going to be brief because this is a long story, but I have all the documents to prove any statement that I make if anyone here is curious, or doesn't believe what I'm saying is at all possible -- the Zionists in London went to the British war cabinet and they said: “Look here. You can yet win this war. You don't have to give up. You don't have to accept the negotiated peace offered to you now by Germany. You can win this war if the United States will come in as your ally.”

The United States was not in the war at that time. We were fresh; we were young; we were rich; we were powerful. They [Zionists] told England: “We will guarantee to bring the United States into the war as your ally, to fight with you on your side, if you will promise us Palestine after you win the war.”

In other words, they made this deal: “We will get the United States into this war as your ally. The price you must pay us is Palestine after you have won the war and defeated Germany, Austria-Hungary, and Turkey.”

Now England had as much right to promise Palestine to anybody, as the United States would have to promise Japan to Ireland for any reason whatsoever. It's absolutely absurd that Great Britain -- that never had any connection or any interest or any right in what is known as Palestine -- should offer it as coin of the realm to pay the Zionists for bringing the United States into the war.

However, they made that promise, in October of 1916. October, nineteen hundred and sixteen. And shortly after that -- I don't know how many here remember it -- the United States, which was almost totally pro-German -- totally pro-German -- because the newspapers here were controlled by Jews, the bankers were Jews, all the media of mass communications in this country were controlled by Jews, and they were pro-German because their people, in the majority of cases came from Germany, and they wanted to see Germany lick the Czar.

The Jews didn't like the Czar, and they didn't want Russia to win this war. So the German bankers -- the German-Jews -- Kuhn Loeb and the other big banking firms in the United States refused to finance France or England to the extent of one dollar. They stood aside and they said: “As long as France and England are tied up with Russia, not one cent!” But they poured money into Germany, they fought with Germany against Russia, trying to lick the Czarist regime.

Now those same Jews, when they saw the possibility of getting Palestine, they went to England and they made this deal. At that time, everything changed, like the traffic light that changes from red to green. Where the newspapers had been all pro-German, where they'd been telling the people of the difficulties that Germany was having fighting Great Britain commercially and in other respects, all of a sudden the Germans were no good. They were villains. They were Huns. They were shooting Red Cross nurses. They were cutting off babies' hands. And they were no good.

Well, shortly after that, Mr. Wilson declared war on Germany.

The Zionists in London sent these cables to the United States, to Justice Brandeis: “Go to work on President Wilson. We're getting from England what we want. Now you go to work, and you go to work on President Wilson and get the United States into the war." And that did happen. That's how the United States got into the war. We had no more interest in it; we had no more right to be in it than we have to be on the moon tonight instead of in this room.

Now the war -- World War One -- in which the United States participated had absolutely no reason to be our war. We went in there -- we were railroaded into it -- if I can be vulgar, we were suckered into -- that war merely so that the Zionists of the world could obtain Palestine. Now, that is something that the people in the United States have never been told. They never knew why we went into World War One. Now, what happened?

After we got into the war, the Zionists went to Great Britain and they said: “Well, we performed our part of the agreement. Let's have something in writing that shows that you are going to keep your bargain and give us Palestine after you win the war.” Because they didn't know whether the war would last another year or another ten years. So they started to work out a receipt. The receipt took the form of a letter, and it was worded in very cryptic language so that the world at large wouldn't know what it was all about. And that was called the Balfour Declaration.

The Balfour Declaration was merely Great Britain's promise to pay the Zionists what they had agreed upon as a consideration for getting the United States into the war. So this great Balfour Declaration, that you hear so much about, is just as phony as a three dollar bill. And I don't think I could make it more emphatic than that.

Now, that is where all the trouble started. The United States went in the war. The United States crushed Germany. We went in there, and it's history. You know what happened. Now, when the war was ended, and the Germans went to Paris, to the Paris Peace Conference in 1919, there were 117 Jews there, as a delegation representing the Jews, headed by Bernard Baruch. I was there: I ought to know. Now what happened?

[fccool]

The Jews at that peace conference, when they were cutting up Germany and parceling out Europe to all these nations that claimed a right to a certain part of European territory, the Jews said, “How about Palestine for us?” And they produced, for the first time to the knowledge of the Germans, this Balfour Declaration. So the Germans, for the first time realized, “Oh, that was the game! That's why the United States came into the war.” And the Germans for the first time realized that they were defeated, they suffered this terrific reparation that was slapped onto them, because the Zionists wanted Palestine and they were determined to get it at any cost.

Now, that brings us to another very interesting point. When the Germans realized this, they naturally resented it. Up to that time, the Jews had never been better off in any country in the world than they had been in Germany.

You had Mr. Rathenau there, who was maybe 100 times as important in industry and finance as is Bernard Baruch in this country. You had Mr. Balin, who owned the two big steamship lines, the North German Lloyd's and the Hamburg-American Lines. You had Mr. Bleichroder, who was the banker for the Hohenzollern family. You had the Warburgs in Hamburg, who were the big merchant bankers -- the biggest in the world. The Jews were doing very well in Germany. No question about that. Now, the Germans felt: “Well, that was quite a sellout.”

It was a sellout that I can best compare -- suppose the United States was at war today with the Soviet Union. And we were winning. And we told the Soviet Union: “Well, let's quit. We offer you peace terms. Let's forget the whole thing.” And all of a sudden Red China came into the war as an ally of the Soviet Union. And throwing them into the war brought about our defeat. A crushing defeat, with reparations the likes of which man's imagination cannot encompass.

Imagine, then, after that defeat, if we found out that it was the Chinese in this country, our Chinese citizens, who all the time we thought they were loyal citizens working with us, were selling us out to the Soviet Union and that it was through them that Red China was brought into the war against us. How would we feel, in the United States against Chinese? I don't think that one of them would dare show his face on any street. There wouldn't be lampposts enough, convenient, to take care of them. Imagine how we would feel.

Well, that's how the Germans felt towards these Jews. "We've been so nice to them"; and from 1905 on, when the first Communist revolution in Russia failed, and the Jews had to scramble out of Russia, they all went to Germany. And Germany gave them refuge. And they were treated very nicely. And here they sold Germany down the river for no reason at all other than they wanted Palestine as a so-called “Jewish commonwealth.”

Now, Nahum Sokolow -- all the great leaders, the big names that you read about in connection with Zionism today -- they, in 1919, 1920, '21, '22, and '23, they wrote in all their papers -- and the press was filled with their statements -- that "the feeling against the Jews in Germany is due to the fact that they realized that this great defeat was brought about by our intercession and bringing the United States into the war against them."

The Jews themselves admitted that. It wasn't that the Germans in 1919 discovered that a glass of Jewish blood tasted better than Coca-Cola or Muenschner Beer. There was no religious feeling. There was no sentiment against those people merely on account of their religious belief. It was all political. It was economic. It was anything but religious.

Nobody cared in Germany whether a Jew went home and pulled down the shades and said “Shema' Yisrael” or “Our Father.” No one cared in Germany any more than they do in the United States. Now this feeling that developed later in Germany was due to one thing: that the Germans held the Jews responsible for their crushing defeat, for no reason at all, because World War One was started against Germany for no reason for which they [Germans] were responsible. They were guilty of nothing. Only of being successful. They built up a big navy. They built up world trade.

You must remember, Germany, at the time of Napoleon, at the time of the French Revolution, what was the German Reich consisted of 300 -- three hundred! -- small city-states, principalities, dukedoms, and so forth. Three hundred little separate political entities. And between that time, between the period of. . . between Napoleon and Bismarck, they were consolidated into one state. And within 50 years after that time they became one of the world's great powers. Their navy was rivalling Great Britain's, they were doing business all over the world, they could undersell anybody and make better products. And what happened? What happened as a result of that?

There was a conspiracy between England, France, and Russia that: "We must slap down Germany", because there isn't one historian in the world that can find a valid reason why those three countries decided to wipe Germany off the map politically. Now, what happened after that?

When Germany realized that the Jews were responsible for her defeat, they naturally resented it. But not a hair on the head of any Jew was harmed. Not a single hair. Professor Tansill, of Georgetown University, who had access to all the secret papers of the State Department, wrote in his book, and quoted from a State Department document written by Hugo Schoenfelt, a Jew who Cordell Hull sent to Europe in 1933 to investigate the so-called camps of political prisoners. And he wrote back that he found them in very fine condition.

They were in excellent shape; everybody treated well. And they were filled with Communists. Well, a lot of them were Jews, because the Jews happened to be maybe 98 per cent of the Communists in Europe at that time. And there were some priests there, and ministers, and labor leaders, Masons, and others who had international affiliations.

Now, the Jews sort of tried to keep the lid on this fact. They didn't want the world to really understand that they had sold out Germany, and that the Germans resented that.

So they did take appropriate action against them [against the Jews]. They. . . shall I say, discriminated against them wherever they could? They shunned them. The same as we would the Chinese, or the Negroes, or the Catholics, or anyone in this country who had sold us out to an enemy and brought about our defeat.

Now, after a while, the Jews of the world didn't know what to do, so they called a meeting in Amsterdam. Jews from every country in the world attended in July 1933. And they said to Germany: “You fire Hitler! And you put every Jew back into his former position, whether he was a Communist, no matter what he was. You can't treat us that way! And we, the Jews of the world, are calling upon you, and serving this ultimatum upon you.” Well, the Germans told them. . . you can imagine. So what did they [the Jews] do?

[fccool]

They broke up, and Samuel Untermyer, if the name means anything to people here. . . (You want to ask a question? --- Uh, there were no Communists in Germany at that time. they were called 'Social Democrats.)

Well, I don't want to go by what they were called. We're now using English words, and what they were called in Germany is not very material. . . but they were Communists, because in 1917, the Communists took over Germany for a few days. Rosa Luxembourg and Karl Liebknecht, and a group of Jews in Germany took over the government for three days. In fact, when the Kaiser ended the war, he fled to Holland because he thought the Communists were going to take over Germany as they did Russia, and that he was going to meet the same fate that the Czar did in Russia. So he left and went to Holland for safety and for security.

Now, at that time, when the Communist threat in Germany was quashed, it was quiet, the Jews were working, still trying to get back into their former -- their status -- and the Germans fought them in every way they could, without hurting a hair on anyone's head. The same as one group, the Prohibitionists, fought the people who were interested in liquor, and they didn't fight one another with pistols, they did it every way they could.

Well, that's the way they were fighting the Jews in Germany. And, at that time, mind you, there were 80 to 90 million Germans and there were only 460,000 Jews. . . less than one half of one percent of Germany were Jews. And yet, they controlled all of the press, they controlled most of the economy, because they had come in and with cheap money -- you know the way the Mark was devalued -- they bought up practically everything.

Well, in 1933 when Germany refused to surrender, mind you, to the World Conference of Jews in Amsterdam, they broke up and Mr. Untermeyer came back to the United States -- who was the head of the American delegation and the president of the whole conference -- and he went from the steamer to ABC and made a radio broadcast throughout the United States in which he said:

"The Jews of the world now declare a Holy War against Germany. We are now engaged in a sacred conflict against the Germans. And we are going to starve them into surrender. We are going to use a world-wide boycott against them, that will destroy them because they are dependent upon their export business."

And it is a fact that two thirds of Germany's food supply had to be imported, and it could only be imported with the proceeds of what they exported. Their labor. So if Germany could not export, two thirds of Germany's population would have to starve. There just was not enough food for more than one third of the population.

Now in this declaration, which I have here, it was printed on page -- a whole page -- in the New York Times on August 7, 1933, Mr. Samuel Untermyer boldly stated that: “this economic boycott is our means of self-defense. President Roosevelt has advocated its use in the NRA" . [National Recovery Administration] -- which some of you may remember, where everybody was to be boycotted unless they followed the rules laid down by the New Deal, which of course was declared unconstitutional by the Supreme Court at that time.

Nevertheless, the Jews of the world declared a boycott against Germany, and it was so effective that you couldn't find one thing in any store anywhere in the world with the words "made in Germany" on it.

In fact, an executive of the Woolworth Company told me that they had to dump millions of dollars worth of crockery and dishes into the river; that their stores were boycotted. If anyone came in and found a dish marked "made in Germany," they were picketed with signs: "Hitler", "murderer", and so forth, and like -- something like these sit-ins that are taking place in the South.

R. H. Macy, which is controlled by a family called Strauss who also happen to be Jews. . . a woman found stockings there which came from Chemnitz, marked "made in Germany". Well, they were cotton stockings. They may have been there 20 years, because since I've been observing women's legs in the last twenty years, I haven't seen a pair with cotton stockings on them. So Macy! I saw Macy boycotted, with hundreds of people walking around with signs saying "MURDERS" and "HITLERITES", and so forth.

Now up to that time, not one hair on the head of any Jew had been hurt in Germany. There was no suffering, there was no starvation, there was no murder, there was nothing.

Now, that. . . naturally, the Germans said, "Why, who are these people to declare a boycott against us and throw all our people out of work, and our industries come to a standstill? Who are they to do that to us?" They naturally resented it. Certainly they painted swastikas on stores owned by Jews.

Why should a German go in and give their money to a storekeeper who was part of a boycott who was going to starve Germany into surrender into the Jews of the world, who were going to dictate who their premier or chancellor was to be? Well, it was ridiculous.

That continued for some time, and it wasn't until 1938, when a young Jew from Poland walked into the German embassy in Paris and shot one of the officials [a German official] that the Germans really started to get rough with the Jews in Germany. And you found them then breaking windows and having street fights and so forth.

Now, for anyone to say that -- I don't like to use the word 'anti-Semitism' because it's meaningless, but it means something to you still, so I'll have to use it -- the only reason that there was any feeling in Germany against Jews was that they were responsible: number one, for World War One; number two, for this world-wide boycott, and number three -- did I say for World War One, they were responsible? For the boycott -- and also for World War II, because after this thing got out of hand, it was absolutely necessary for the Jews and Germany to lock horns in a war to see which one was going to survive.

In the meanwhile, I had lived in Germany, and I knew that the Germans had decided [that] Europe is going to be Christian or Communist: there is no in between. It's going to be Christian or it's going to be Communist. And the Germans decided: "We're going to keep it Christian if possible". And they started to re-arm.

And there intention was -- by that time the United States had recognized the Soviet Union, which they did in November, 1933 -- the Soviet Union was becoming very powerful, and Germany realized: "Well, our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong." The same as we in this country are saying today, "Our turn is going to come soon, unless we are strong."

And our government is spending 83 or 84 billion dollars of your money for defense, they say. Defense against whom? Defense against 40,000 little Jews in Moscow that took over Russia, and then, in their devious ways, took over control of many other governments of the world.

Now, for this country to now be on the verge of a Third World War, from which we cannot emerge a victor, is something that staggers my imagination. I know that nuclear bombs are measured in terms of megatons. A megaton is a term used to describe one million tons of TNT. One million tons of TNT is a megaton. Now, our nuclear bombs have a capacity of 10 megatons, or 10 million tons of TNT. That was when they were first developed five or six years ago. Now, the nuclear bombs that are being developed have a capacity of 200 megatons, and God knows how many megatons the nuclear bombs of the Soviet Union have.

So, what do we face now? If we trigger a world war that may develop into a nuclear war, humanity is finished. And why will it take place? It will take place because Act III. . . the curtain goes up on Act III. Act I was World War I. Act II was World War II. Act III is going to be World War III.

The Jews of the world, the Zionists and their co-religionists everywhere, are determined that they are going to again use the United States to help them permanently retain Palestine as their foothold for their world government. Now, that is just as true as I am standing here, because not alone have I read it, but many here have read it, and it's known all over the world.

[fccool]

Now, I don't want you to believe what the man says. Do some research for yourself.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balfour_Declaration_of_1917

In 1917 England had as much claim on Palestine as Friedman would put it, USA would claim Japan for Koreans.

That's why this conflict will not be resolved, because Muslims are aware of the above side of the story. It's really a matter of ideology.

[Dr. Shane]

Wow! We got some serious antisemitism here. If it is on the internet it has to be true. Right?

[fccool]

Again, this is coming from a Jew... who by definition can not be against himself. If you prefer better source:

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/50162/Balfour-Declaration

I guess Encyclopedias can not be trusted, right?

[Dr. Shane]

this is coming from a Jew... who by definition can not be against himself.

Wrong.

[fccool]

What is wrong? That Friedman is a Jew, or that he can not be considered anti-Semite?

[Dr. Shane]

It will be interesting to see if the Palestinian people re-elect Hamas after this. Israel is trying to teach them a lesson and hopefully that learn something from it.

The anti-Israel crowd wants to focus backwards by looking at history and putting their antisemitic spin on it. That doesn't help anyone. The past is not the key to a peaceful future. The key is both sides accepting reality. The reality Israel needs to accept is that Arab nations are never going to allow the Palestinians to immigrate into their nations because to do so would make the issue of a Palestinians homeland mute. Obviously the Palestinians don't need a homeland if granted citizenship in Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Egypt. Israel needs to accept the fact that the Arab nations love death, hate and want war. That is the reality that Israel needs to accept. Palestinians need to accept the fact that the Arab nations around them do not want Palestinians to prosper and live happily. They want Palestinians to be miserable so that they will be able to stir the hate pot and recruit more people to kill themselves in suicide attacks. If the Palestinians want peace they need to accept the fact that the only peace is going to come by sitting down with Israel, recognizing Israel as a legitimate state and negotiating borders and terms of peace.

[fccool]

Israel needs to accept the fact that Arabs love death, hate and want war.

I hope you understand what you are saying.

[Bravus]

How is Shane's statement there anything other than the most extreme and ugly form of racism? I love and respect you, Shane, but you *seriously* need to rethink that statement and attitude.

[Dr. Shane]

These past two posts were made while I was editing mine. The edited version places my comments in context with the following sentence: "Palestinians need to accept the fact that the Arab nations around them do not want Palestinians to prosper and live happily." When I used the word "Arab" I was not referring to individuals but to the nations surrounding Israel. Those nations love death. They fund suicide bombers and suicide parties. They love war because they fund terrorist groups that provoke Israel to war. They love hate because they fuel anti-Israel hatred in the schools and media. What I said, taken in proper context, hits the nail on the head. The individual Palestinians need to accept the fact that the Arab governments around them are not looking out for the best interests of the Palestinians as a people.

[phkrause]

Thanks for the link. Its very interesting. I'm not so sure how honest he is. A lot of the stuff he speaks about I have heard, but he puts a little spin on some of it. Have you ever read the book "With Lawrence of Arabia" by Lowell Thomas? He has a little bit different view. I think he is a little bit less bias or pregidice not being Jewish or Arab. You know one of things that separates the Israelis and the Arab terrorists that I see is the Jews do not want to kill all Arabs, while the terrorists want to kill all Jews.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

How is Shane's statement there anything other than the most extreme and ugly form of racism?

I can easily give you a more extreme and ugly form of racism than what some perceived my statement to say before I edited it.

How about this form of racism?

Man puts on suicide vest, gets onto bus filled with Jews, kills himself and many others.

Is that a more extreme form of racism? To me it doesn't get any worse. When a man hates another race so much that he takes his own life in order to kill people of that other race, what is worse than that?

How about this? After said man kills himself, his mom throws a party for all the family and friends and they all celebrate the Jews that died with the terrorist. Is that a worse form of racism? Is that ugly?

Yes, I hate racism and I understand how ugly it is but the worst of it is seen in the actions of the extremist Muslims toward the peace-loving Jewish civilians.

[phkrause]

Unfortunately they say it all the time. And its in there Charter. I'm speaking of the terrorists not the Arabs as a whole. I believe that both sides need to look at what they are doing. Even if they like it or not they are all family.

pk

[Bravus]

Your statement is still racist, though slightly less so. You are making a broad and sweeping negative statement about an entire race of people, based on their race. That is the very definition of racism. I did not say that there are no racist Arabs, or that suicide bombing attacks might not be interpreted as racist actions. The point is, you are not accountable for Arab racism, to the extent it exists, but for your own racism. You can say that there are racist Arabs, and Arabs who love war and death, but to extend that to an entire race, as you originally did, or to entire nations as you are now, is wrong both factually and morally.

My point is not about the rights and wrongs of this war - there is ample blame to go around on all sides - but about being careful that opinions and debates don't push us into becoming what we abhor.

[olger]

War runs in the blood of Islam. If you haven't seen it, then your eyes aren't open.

`og

[fccool]

hmm. Would you say that war runs in blood of Christianity based on acts of Roman Empire or Catholic inquisition? That's another broad statement, that is uttered without any thought or supporting evidence.

[olger]

Good luck equating New Testament apostolic believers with Islam. That'll be more'n a days work for you.

On the other hand, it requires very little effort to equate Islam with apostate Israel in the Old Testament.

regards,

og

[fccool]

Hmm, Isn't Israel of the OT and today would be considered apostate ?

PS. I was not talking about NT Apostolic Believers, just like you are not talking about an average Muslim.

[olger]

Exactly. The average Muslim compares well to the Old Testament Jews.

Here is the spiritual genetic, Islam is a daughter of Apostate Christianity. Thus they are a judgement upon the Roman Church. Both are false systems.

og

[fccool]

Your point is not quite that Islam is apostate, which I share this view with you... but that it is inherently rooted violence. It it is so, can you please share some examples of Muslim beliefs with some substantial evidence (outside of the extremists that I equate with Roman Inquisition) that Islam calls for violence as it is taught today?