In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel

[olger]

Dear Fred; Muslims may not have Christians or Jews for friends (Sura 5:54). To oppose Islam is punishable by either death, crucifixion, cutting off of the hands and feet, or exile from the land (Sura 5:36). In Muslim dominated countries there are no opposition parties allowed (Surah 4:59), and no separation between church and state (Surah 2:193). Under Islam a man may beat his wife (Surah 4:34). A Muslim who converts to Christianity must be killed (Sura 9:12). The Koran of Mohammed teaches that the Muslims should be patient and courteous with the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) when the Muslims are weak. But once they are strong, then they may act as described in Sura 2:191, which tells them to "Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out..." Muslims are bound to follow the example of Mohammed who changed his position from one of acquiesence to one of attack as soon as he became strong enough to launch the Jihad (holy war).

All for now..I have to go wash the blood off of my keyboard for writing this.

og

[Bravus]

Quote:

War runs in the blood of Islam. If you haven't seen it, then your eyes aren't open.

Shane wasn't talking about Islam, he was talking about Arabs. One is a religious group, one a racial group. There are many Arabs who are not Muslim, including many Christians. The assertion that Islam is about war, while debatable, is not racist. The assertion that all Arabs are, is.

[fccool]

Quote:

Muslims may not have Christians or Jews for friends (Sura 5:54)

No such thing in 5:54

[5:54] O you who believe, if you revert from your religion, then GOD will substitute in your place people whom He loves and who love Him. They will be kind with the believers, stern with the disbelievers, and will strive in the cause of GOD without fear of any blame. Such is GOD's blessing; He bestows it upon whomever He wills. GOD is Bounteous, Omniscient.

But even if there was... almost all religions are exclusive when it comes to beliefs of others.

23:31 And I will set thy bounds from the Red sea even unto the sea of the Philistines, and from the desert unto the river: for I will deliver the inhabitants of the land into your hand; and thou shalt drive them out before thee.

23:32 Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods. Stay away from those that believe differently than you. Do not make treaties with them or allow them to live in your land.

Exodus 23:31

1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.

1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:

1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.

2nd John 1:9-11

Quote:

To oppose Islam is punishable by either death, crucifixion, cutting off of the hands and feet, or exile from the land (Sura 5:36)

Now, of course I would expect you to at least read the Quran to verify that at least your references are correct.

[sura 5:36] Certainly, those who disbelieved, if they possessed everything on earth, even twice as much, and offered it as ransom to spare them the retribution on the Day of Resurrection, it would not be accepted from them; they have incurred a painful retribution.

[sura 5:37] They will want to exit Hell, but alas, they can never exit therefrom; their retribution is eternal.

But, I'll give you a benefit of the doubt, and say that you are talking about Sura 5:38. Which does say that:

Quote:

The thief, male or female, you shall mark their hands as a punishment for their crime, and to serve as an example from GOD. GOD is Almighty, Most Wise.

Notice that the text does not call for cutting of the hands of disbelievers, neither it does call for cutting of the hands of the thief. It calls for marking the hand of a criminal, just like we have a criminal record today. You can consult with any knowledgeable Muslim and they will be glad to confirm.

Quote:

In Muslim dominated countries there are no opposition parties allowed (Surah 4:59)

Again, I don't think you even read what you are referencing.

[sura 4:59] O you who believe, you shall obey GOD, and you shall obey the messenger, and those in charge among you. If you dispute in any matter, you shall refer it to GOD and the messenger, if you do believe in GOD and the Last Day. This is better for you, and provides you with the best solution.

[surah 2:193] Say, "Do you argue with us about GOD, when He is our Lord and your Lord? We are responsible for our deeds, and you are responsible for your deeds. To Him alone we are devoted."

The latter one is not in any state-religion context. It's in context of defending Muslim faith (not violently, of course, but by reason) from people who coming back and claiming that they have the truth such as Jews and Christians.

Quote:

Islam a man may beat his wife (Surah 4:34)

The whole Sura 4 is actually describing relationship to Muslim women and Men. I grew up in the culture, so I can assure you that beating the wives is hardly the position of Islam.

[sura 4:34] The men are made responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment, and honor their husbands during their absence. If you experience rebellion from the women, you shall first talk to them, then (you may use negative incentives like) deserting them in bed, then you may (as a last alternative) beat them. If they obey you, you are not permitted to transgress against them. GOD is Most High, Supreme.

First of all, the verse is talking about righteous wife in terms of fidelity... not "unquestionable obedience" that people would like you to believe. In context it is dealing with marital fidelity in absence of the husband. Although it does allow beating as the last resort... it is to be done so as last resort. Although I've known many Muslims that misuse this verse, the general teaching nevertheless is in context of marital fidelity.

Quote:

A Muslim who converts to Christianity must be killed (Sura 9:12) The Koran of Mohammed teaches that the Muslims should be patient and courteous with the people of the Book (Christians and Jews) when the Muslims are weak. But once they are strong, then they may act as described in Sura 2:191, which tells them to "Kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out..." Muslims are bound to follow the example of Mohammed who changed his position from one of acquiesence to one of attack as soon as he became strong enough to launch the Jihad (holy war).

This in fact only shows me your complete lack of understanding of Muslim faith. First of all, the verse that you quote is not found in Sura 2... it's found in Sura 9...

2:191 talks about defense from those who wage a war against you....

[2:191] You may kill those who wage war against you, and you may evict them whence they evicted you. Oppression is worse than murder. Do not fight them at the Sacred Masjid, unless they attack you therein. If they attack you, you may kill them. This is the just retribution for those disbelievers.

Yet the entire 9th chapter is dealing with Idol Worshippers (unbelievers, or pagans as they are called).

[sura 9:5] ... fight and slay the pagans (or infidels or unbelievers) wherever you find them....

This is perhaps the most quoted verse that supposedly proves that Islam is violent, because it calls for "killing of the infidels"

First of all, if that would be the case historically... I think Muslim followed the advice very poorly. Mainly because you don't observe the perceived genocide of faith that would have resulted from such belief... neither you observe such attitudes today... even among the most Muslim extremists.

Take historical India for example. For many centuries, the Muslims controlled greater part of it... and yet you will find much of the population holding to the Hindu faith, and even to the extend that the highest officials were Hindus.

On the other hand, when Queen Isabella made a choice for Jews... be baptized or be deported. Where do you think the Jews went? The Ottoman Empire. Why would they do that if Muslims were so intolerant and were "fighting and killing the infidels wherever they found them?"

I'll explain why. Quran is highly contextual as it is taught. The same Quran that reads, "Whoever then acts aggressively against you, inflict injury on him according to the injury he has inflicted on you" (2:194), also reads, "Goodness and evil are not the same. So repel evil with goodness, then the one who had enmity between you becomes a trusted and dear friend" (41:34).

Now, taking 9... in context of 60... you will be shocked to find:

(60:8-9), "God does not forbid you respecting those who have not made war against you on account of your religion, and have not driven you forth from your homes, that you show them kindness and deal with them justly; surely God loves the doers of justice. God only forbids you respecting and loving those who made war upon you on account of your religion, and drove you forth from your homes and backed up others in your expulsion, that you make friends with them, and whoever makes friends with them, these are the unjust."

The Quran does not present Islam as a religion of nquestionable pacifism or relentless aggression. Those who do not transgress should be treated humanely and benevolently with complete respect. Those who transgress should be fought, "And fight in the cause of God those who fight against you, and do not commit aggression. Indeed God does not love those who are aggressors," (2:190). In other words, Islam is a religion of peace, not in the sense that it is pacifist, but in the sense that Muslims can and should co-exist peacefully with others who respect them. Neither transgression is permitted nor forcing others to espouse Islam as the Quran says

2:256 Let there be no compulsion in religion: Truth stands out clear from Error: whoever rejects evil and believes in Allah hath grasped the most trustworthy hand-hold, that never breaks. And Allah heareth and knoweth all things.

So far you demonstrated to me complete ignorance when it comes to knowledge of Muslim faith... thus why should I take anything that you say about Islam seriously?

I don't endorse Islam, but I've studied it enough to know a politically motivated propaganda from reality.

[Bravus]

Thanks for that, fccool. I've tried to stay out of this whole discussion, but this kind of thoughtful, scholarly fact-checking is essential. Not because I largely agree with you, but because, as I keep saying repeatedly here, lies do not and cannot serve the truth.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

Your statement is still racist, though slightly less so

My statement was not racist because it was about governments not races of people. The Arab governments in the middle east are not democracies. I have no idea what the individual Arabs believe there. I have had many Arab friends over the years here that have had no problem peacefully existing with Christians and Jews.

Quote:

You are making a broad and sweeping negative statement about an entire race of people, based on their race.

No, I am making specific comments about specific governments in regard to the types of behavior they support and encourage.

My original comment was a typo. I went back and changed it immediately and before my changes were posted I was already accused of being racist. However even if I were to make a racist comment they would only be words and words are the most mild form of racism. To somehow say that words are an extreme form of racism does not do justice to forms of racism that are extreme like denying employment, threatening violence, doing personal harm and actually murdering other people. I do not have a racist bone in my body or a racist hair on my head. I understand how bad racism is. If all racists ever did was talk or make posts on the internet we really wouldn't have to worry about them at all.

[Bravus]

Fair enough points, but it is the kind of attitudes that you were and are exhibiting that also perpetuate these wars. If Americans *believe* that about the Arab nations, then there's no point engaging in any diplomacy at all. The only possible response is war. That's dangerous nonsense. There are ways to contain and avoid wars, and those include dealing with legitimate and genuine grievances.

You did make it more precise, but even then you said 'nations', and are now saying 'governments'. Big difference.

Look, playing the 'that's racist' card is not a rhetorical move I'm pulling to win an argument here. You're a friend and I hate to see you spreading ignorant and hateful things.

Do whatever you want with it, but it's ignorance about the rest of the world that gets America into the wars it gets into. Knowledge is the only antidote that can take us forward.

[Dr. Shane]

I was specifically talking about Arab nations allowing Palestinians to immigrate and granting them citizenship. That was the entire context of my post. Immigration and citizenship laws are determined by government. Those governments do not want peace. That is why they will not allow Palestinians to immigrate and nationalize. What those governments do is support and encourage terrorism.

I am not talking about America here. America is not in a war with Palestinians or with Jordan, Syria, Lebanon or Egypt. I am talking about the war between Hamas and Israel. The Arab governments in the region have the power to make peace. Monday they could take political action that would bring a long-lasting peace to the region. Israel doesn't have the power. There is nothing Israel can do that will make peace.

[fccool]

Have you ever read the book "With Lawrence of Arabia" by Lowell Thomas?

pk

No, I have not heard of this book. I'll check it out though.

... Looks like they've made a film too.

[phkrause]

I'm with bravus. I also enjoy your posts, even when we do disagree on occasion, hahahaha. I just finished watching the series on Islam with Steve Wohlberg, on 3abn. Very informative.

pk

[olger]

Something is wrong here..

"Sura 5:54= "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." More to come :)

[Bravus]

Want to link a source for that?

[Gerr]

Yes, there is!!! First and foremost: they should stop settling on Palestinian lands! While they play the victim, they continue to settle on Palestinian lands either by outright confiscation or buying them. I believe it was former Pres. Carter who brought this out into the open, and he was derided by the press, some even calling him anti-semitic.

[Gerr]

Want to link a source for that?

Bravus, I have a copy of the Koran, a translation by A.J. Arberry. This is how it reads:

O believers, take not Jews and Christians as friends; they are friends of each other. Whoso of you makes them his friends is one of them. God guides not the people of the evildoers. Sura V:56.

[Bravus]

Ah, it's just a referencing issue, then - verse 54 vs 56. Thanks.

[fccool]

Something is wrong here..

"Sura 5:54= "O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors; they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust." More to come

Actually that would be vs 51:

[5:51] O you who believe, do not take certain Jews and Christians as allies; these are allies of one another. Those among you who ally themselves with these belong with them. GOD does not guide the transgressors.

But yet again you are taking it out of context and ignore the prevailing practice of Islam... especially in the US and Europe.

The immediate context is:

[5:57] O you who believe, do not befriend those among the recipients of previous scripture who mock and ridicule your religion, nor shall you befriend the disbelievers. You shall reverence GOD, if you are really believers.

I think it's obvious from the context above that this is not the case. What you choose to do is to pick and choose which verses you'd like to present in order to prove your premise, without examining the prevalent practice.

I don't think it's a fair representation. I can easily go through Bible and Torah in search for the "make no friend" statements and present these to you in a likewise twisted manner.

Either way, if you want to know what Muslims believe... why won't you go to one and actually talk?

PS. I'm sure that you aware of the multitude of statements in Torah that would make for a very unpleasant and uncomfortable discussion... yet somehow you choose to avoid these to support your premise of bad Muslims and righteous Jews.

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

There is nothing Israel can do that will make peace.

First and foremost: they should stop settling on Palestinian lands!

[Dr. Shane]

[ I can easily go through Bible and Torah in search for the "make no friend" statements and present these to you in a likewise twisted manner.

Yea, especially that Good Samaritan parable. That is a good one to twist.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: fccool

[ I can easily go through Bible and Torah in search for the "make no friend" statements and present these to you in a likewise twisted manner.

Yea, especially that Good Samaritan parable. That is a good one to twist.

[fccool]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Quote:

There is nothing Israel can do that will make peace.

First and foremost: they should stop settling on Palestinian lands!

Dismantlement of settlements

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/01/new-israeli-settlements-t_n_104536.html

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/jun/16/israelandthepalestinians.usa

What's this about then? Are they trying to make Pat Robertson happy? :)

[Dr. Shane]

Israel has never given any indication that they plan to give back Jerusalem. In their mind, that is not Palestinian territory. I think it is pretty clear what they consider Palestinian territory because they are building a wall around it.

And even if they did give it back, does anyone think that would result in peace?

[Dr. Shane]

Quote:

If anyone comes to me and does not hate his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, and sisters, as well as his own life, he can't be my disciple.

That is why I have forbid my mother-in-law from visiting us.

[fccool]

Israel has never given any indication that they plan to give back Jerusalem. In their mind, that is not Palestinian territory. I think it is pretty clear what they consider Palestinian territory because they are building a wall around it.

And even if they did give it back, does anyone think that would result in peace?

[Dr. Shane]

Look at all the refuge camps in Syrian, Jordan and Lebanon and tell me Palestinians don't want to leave Palestinian areas. These countries should open their doors and let the refuges immigrate and nationalize.

[nuff sed]

These countries should open their doors and let the refuges immigrate and nationalize".

Why should they?

[Dr. Shane]

For the same reason the US has opened our doors for refuges. Notice that in the US we don't set up refuge camps for those fleeing other countries. We allow refuges to immigrate and nationalize here. We don't pen them up like animals.