In West Bank, there's anger at Hamas as well as at Israel

[Gerr]

Dismantlement of settlements

It would be interesting to REALLY find out how many settlements they have ACTUALLY dismantled, and how many Palestinian lands

they have actually occupied during that same period of time. Yes, I have read about some settlements being dismantled, but I

wonder how much of that is propaganda for US & European consumption.

[phkrause]

Here is a link to what you are asking about: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article7

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I suspect that the Palestinians could get more settlements dismantled if they would quit electing terrorists to their government.

[fccool]

Couldn't the same demand made by the opposite side? We'll stop electing terrorists, if you stop marginalizing our nation...

[Dr. Shane]

The Arabs have lots of land. The Palestinian issue is an Arab-made crisis. If Jordan, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon and other Arab nations allowed immigration and naturalization we would hear about Israel "marginalizing" anyone. The fact that they have as their stated goal the total destruction of Israel simply invites a defensive posture on the part of Israel. The keys to peace are in the hands of the Arabs. There is simply nothing Israel can do which will cause an enduring peace.

[fccool]

How about leave? You make it an issue of Palestinians to simply abandon their heritage. The point of Arabs is that if the rest of the world mistreated Jews so much, why do Palestinians have to suffer? Why not give them a piece of land in Germany, or even US... where nobody would mind that? But, of course, the pressure is on Arabs to do what we want them to. Because they are the violent ones, they are wrong. Right?

[Dr. Shane]

First, the Jews do have land in the US. The Jews have freely immigrated to the US even prior to the US breaking away from England. So that is a dead argument.

Second, the Arabs do not have to abandon their heritage. They can continue to kill their daughters that get raped and kill women that commit adultery. No one is telling them to abandon their heritage. They have lots of land. There are lots of places that Arabs have to call home.

Third, Jews started moving to Palestine when it was under the rule of the Ottoman empire. They did not raid the nation like crusaders, killing the people and stealing their land. They migrated to the land and purchased lots from the land owners. If the Arabs were like the Americans they would be able to peacefully co-exist with the Jews.

Fourthly, playing the heritage game doesn't work either. Both Jews and Arabs trace their heritage back to that area. That said, Muslims have much more heritage in the Saudi Arabia area than the Israel area. And Jews have stronger heritage to the Israeli area than the Saudi Arabia area. So it only makes sense that the Jews control Jerusalem and the Muslims control Meca.

[fccool]

I would argue that Arabs are more peaceful than Americans (governmental level that is). I don't want to fall into the same generalization game that you are engaging in.

[John317]

I would argue that Arabs are more peaceful than Americans.

Explain the ones we are concerned with-- the few who are not peaceful. Why do they strap bombs on their own children and send them off to blow themselves up for the sake of killing someone they don't even know, maybe another child or a mother or grandfather?

Would you catch an American or Jewish parent doing that? If not, why not? Even during WW2, no Jew would have considered blowing up their child in order to kill their worst enemies. Why will some Arabs do it gladly and joyfully? Does the Qur'an have anything to do with it?

[fccool]

Quote:

Why will some Arabs do it gladly and joyfully?

When you treat people like animals, they act as such. I don't think it has anything to do with Quran. There were farm people who boiled and ate their kids in times of famine.... American farm people.

To me it is a sign desperation, not the fact that somehow they don't love their children... they just don't see any future for their children, and in Gaza it is a dark reality, that these kids will likely to die young.

The fact is that 60% of the Palestinians in occupied territories are under 19 years old. 50% of them are under 15 years old. What we are looking is essentially a nation of fatherless children growing up wowing revenge.

I don't expect you to understand it. But I do expect a Christian to see compassion above justice... just like we have received compassion, instead of justice.

[Bravus]

"Greater love hath no man, than that he lay down his life for his friends"

[Dr. Shane]

The fact is that 60% of the Palestinians in occupied territories are under 19 years old. 50% of them are under 15 years old. What we are looking is essentially a nation of fatherless children growing up wowing revenge.

This is all the more reason the Arab nations should open their doors and let the Palestinians immigrant and nationalize. Give those kids a job and home where they feel welcome and part of society and may be they won't be so angry and want so much revenge.

Oh, but, wait... the Arab nations want the Palestinians to be angry and want revenge. Happy Palestinians won't strap bombs on themselves and kill Jews.

[fccool]

I don't defend that. But neither I'm willing to shift the burden of action on Arabs and waiting for something to come out of it.

Shane, realistically... it won't. There are more than one ways out of the situation. Even in US we negotiate with people who take other people hostage. We bargain with them, in many cases we meet their demands. Why? Because we value human life above the money and trinkets (or at least claim to in that situation).

How is that any different? Why should we just abandon Palestinian children for Arabs to take care of... especially if they hate them (based on what you are saying).

[phkrause]

Unfortunatlly they are taught that from birth. I'm talking about the terrorists, not the majority, a very small group that twist the Quran to there liking. Just like christians at least SDA christians who like to distort EGWs writings. Of cousre they don't kill but you get what I'm saying.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I am not saying Arab Muslims hate their children. I am saying they love their children differently than we do. What we think of as love isn't the same as what they think of as love. An American would never murder their daughter that got raped to preserve the family honor. An American might murder the rapist but not the daughter. An American would consider the daughter to be a victim.

[fccool]

Shane, what bothers me is that you take an instance and stick to it like it's an everyday occurrence without understanding the underlying culture at all.

I'll read for you from the OT:

Quote:

If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her; Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city...

Quote:

22:13 If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her, 22:14 And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

22:15 Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

22:16 And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

22:17 And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

22:18 And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

22:19 And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

22:20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

22:21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

In Judges Chapter 19(I'm not going to paste the entire chaper) a Levite lets his concubine be raped in order to protect himself. He then cuts her up into pieces and sends her to all corners of Israel.

There are many cultures that esteem maintenance of Family honor as one of the highest duties. This is not unique to Arabs only. It is practiced in India, Mongolia, North Korea, China, and even parts of the modern Japan.

Americans will largely find these kinds of extreme examples as barbaric and inhumane (which these are), but for the most part I don't think Neo-Western civilizations have any higher concept of family honor. They(Arabs and etc) view immorality as a factor that eventually destroys families. That's why they go to extreme to protect it (Just like God in OT gave extreme laws and statutes to the OT Israel).

Now, I certainly would not justify such actions. Yet, you can observe our different attitudes towards family values with one simple issue of pornography. In US, pornography is almost embraced by much of the population and even some Christians as a norm. You will not find any openly practiced pornographers in most countries in Middle East (outside of Israel) simply because of the issue of family values. I lived in predominately Muslim country in my early childhood years, and rape was almost a non-issue, because women would rather jump out of the balcony, and men knew that if they were caught... they are likely to have their genitals cut off, and subsequently killed for marring the family honor.

PS. Honor killings are observable among conservative Georgians (ex-Soviet Republic), which US has allied with and helped.

Nevertheless, this is not something that happens every day, and was a practice of the OT Israel. Yet, I can make the same point of people in US or Russia not loving their children or wives as they sell them into child sex slavery, or force them into child pornography.

In fact, I am ashamed for being associated with Russian people who shamelessly sell their wives on the street and web cites today. It's horrible.

Nevertheless, I think what you are doing is taking an extreme cases and applying them without exception to the entire nation... and then searching for comparable behavior in the US to somehow gain a moral high ground. I have a friend who simply refuses to talk about these issues because in his mind America is all just and beacon of freedom. He does not see it in its current state of moral decadence that I see it today.

So, I invite you from abstaining of grouping people based on national identity and look at them as people first, and citizens second. Arabs need understanding and compassion just like any other people would. They do love their children, and I can attest to that. And (in their view) that's why they hold family high moral standards to be paramount in light of preserving family. While many of them go to extreme, such cases are more rare than pornography related rape murders in the US and Russia. And then these cases get multiplied by the US media repetition for political agenda.

[Dr. Shane]

Instead of comparing apples with oranges we might want to compare apples with apples.

What is so horrendous about "honor" killings isn't that the families are trying to protect their honor. It is horrendous that they are killing the victim instead of the perpetrator! I think most Americans can identify with the concept of family honor and see it as a noble thing to protect it. But Americans do not grasp how killing the victim of a crime preserves the family honor. We don't love our children like that. When our children are victimized we come to their assistance and go after the perpetrator.

[fccool]

Shane,

You pick one extreme example, and you stick to it like it's an every day occurrence. I'm showing you Bible verses that basically telling you that Jews practiced this same things a while ago, yet you keep coming back to the "don't love their children" deal. Do you think Jews did not love their children when they stoned them for breaking Sabbath. That would be on the same page extremism. Who is the victim in that case, God? Can God really be victimized. Think, man! Don't cling to extremes to defend your prejudice. You are better than that.

[phkrause]

That's because those Jews did like the pagans. Just exactly what God told them through Moses that they should not do. I think that's back in the time of the Judges. Where that statement in Bible says: "And the people did what was right in there own sight." Or something to that effect. Pretty sad no matter who is doing that.

pk

[Dr. Shane]

I am talking about things that take place today in modern society. I am not talking about things that took place 4,000 years ago in ancient societies. I am dealing with apples not oranges.

[fccool]

I take those extreme fanatics to be a rarity... or a minority. Just like child molesters and child rapists are minority in the US. Granted that there are plenty of extremists in Arab world... yet I would not pin blame on the entire Arab race because of these extremists.

[Dr. Shane]

I don't think it has anything to do with their race being Arab. I think it has more to do with their religion being a radical sect of Islam. Regardless how much of a minority they are, they are the ones causing the problem. They are the ones strapping bombs on their children and sending them out to kill Jewish grandmothers and innocent children.

[Bravus]

But fccool has it right. You've been saying 'Arabs blow up their children and then have a party'. It's equally accurate to say 'Americans rape their children and then share the video on the internet'. Both things happen, neither are representative of an entire group.

[John317]

But fccool has it right. You've been saying 'Arabs blow up their children and then have a party'. It's equally accurate to say 'Americans rape their children and then share the video on the internet'. Both things happen, neither are representative of an entire group.

Here's the difference, Bravus.

Not too many Americans celebrate when people rape their children. Those men don't become heroes. In fact, men who do that have to be protected once they go to prison because if they are not, they are killed. They are very unpopular in American society as a whole, even among criminals who have few other scruples.

On the other hand, Muslims who strap bombs on their children and have them blow themselves up in order to kill Jews or anyone else who happens to be there are generally viewed in the Muslim community as having done a good thing. When was the last time you heard of a Muslim going to prison for it or being threatened by a Muslim prison population?

I have Muslim friends who dislike Palestinians but they wouldn't say so in public. They whisper, "Palestinian no good." There are also Muslims who dislike parents who strap bombs on their children or use children for protection in times of war, but they would seldom dare say so. Why? Because they realize they are going against the general Muslim community.

How do you explain it?

[fccool]

John,

A couple things I want you to have no mistake about. And I apologize in advance if I stir up some controversy.

1) I don't know you that well, but I suspect that you have not lived in an Arab country, or known Arab people long enough to understand the mindset.

2) What you are describing is not something Arabs do universally wherever you find them. Only the marginalized ones that are being caged in a Ghetto where you have to pass 10 checkpoints just to get to a hospital, which many times you are denied to take your pregnant wife for delivery... so you have to deliver yourself near the checkpoint.

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article5820.shtml

3) Most of the news you are getting are filtered through American propaganda machine that is extremely critical of Muslim faith and Arab world. Mostly because of their political conformity to Israel.

You are not looking at causes, you just look at the results and then somehow pin it on a religious view that does not advocate such actions (unless provoked). Muslim world has been in relative peace historically compared to the "Christian" world.

If Chinese would treat Christians somewhere in Taiwan in the same manner the Palestinian population is being treated today... I can guarantee you that your attitude would be pro-Christian, and against Chinese. Even if Christians would be resorting to acts of extremism... mostly because you are willing to look and consider the flock of the feather.

I guess I'm tired of repeating it, because you are asking for explanations.... but what part of DESPERATION don't you understand? People do much worse things when they are hopeless and desperate... especially when you mix a little bit of Islam, which tells yo to fight back anyone who is driving you off your land. And when desperation becomes inbred in your culture you know what happens? People embrace radical lifestyle. So, please, what you are peddling is not understanding and what you want is not explanation.

What you want is someone to agree with you. And frankly... I really don't care if you agree or disagree with me on this issue. But it really shows propaganda machine at work when you keep repeating the same thing over and over without looking at underlying causes and you go on painting the FOX "24" style terrorists that have no other history or motives other than sending their children to be blow up to shreds just so they can celebrate some Jewish deaths.

I think the only thing that would change your mind is to actually try living in Palestine for a couple weeks with these people. I wonder what you'd think about it all then.