Moderators Bravus Posted January 14, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 14, 2009 But you are setting up a hierarchy based on this: a prophet is higher than a pastor or teacher. This is not the same as what pk said. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 A church does not choose a prophet; God does. How do I know God choose EGW as a prophet? This is complete conjecture. Am I to believe a bunch of legalistic, self-righteous hypocrites? Let me tell you what the SDA church needs to do with EGW: Burn every book she ever wrote and turn to the Bible. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 But you are setting up a hierarchy based on this: a prophet is higher than a pastor or teacher. This is not the same as what pk said. Who chooses a prophet? Is a church or human involved in choosing a prophet, according to the Bible, and according to how Ellen White was chosen? I don't think it's a matter of anyone being "higher". It's a matter of having different roles in the church. A prophet by definition is one who speaks forth for God to the church and the world. A pastor is elected by a congregation or church in order to represent the church to the local congregations or to individual members. I think you'll agree that a prophet is accountable only to God and not to the church, whereas a church officer to accountable to men as well as to God. For instance, a conference leader or church board may decide to fire a pastor; but no conference leader or church board may fire a prophet. Again, a church may tell a pastor and teacher or elder what to teach, but no church has the authority to tell the prophet what to say or teach. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 A church does not choose a prophet; God does. How do I know God choose EGW as a prophet? The question is, who chose the prophets in the Bible? Were they selected by men or by God? In the case of Ellen White, did any person choose Ellen White as one to be given visions and dreams? Quote: This is complete conjecture. It may seem so you, but the Seventh-day Adventist Church is firmly convinced of it. I personally am also convinced of it, on the basis of years of study and reflection. I have absolutely no doubt of it, but I respect others who do not think as I do on this issue, as on all other issues. Quote: Am I to believe a bunch of legalistic, self-righteous hypocrites? Let me tell you what the SDA church needs to do with EGW: Burn every book she ever wrote and turn to the Bible. We need both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Certainly the Bible is first and we need to spend far more time studying it than studying the writings of Ellen White. We agree on that point. Personally I probably spend about 5 hours in Bible study for every hour that I spend studying Ellen White's writings. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 The truth is that the Church doesn't hold to John317's opinion. It consistently, in reliance on Scripture and statements by EGW, understand ministers to be "called by God". Of course ministers and all other church officers may be "called of God." I'm not denying that at all. That's why I said a little earlier that "none of this means that God is not involved in the work of a pastor or teacher or any other church officer. What it does mean, though, is that God directly calls a prophet, without any selection being made or verified by any other person. For instance, when Ellen White was selected by Jesus Christ as his messenger, no one was asked to verify her work by ordaining her or voting for her. See Early Writings. This is not the case with pastors, elders, teachers, and other church officers." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 According to John, men only are qualified for the lower calling of pastor and that women are not because they are to be subservient/submissive to men, etc... But a woman is qualified for the higher calling of prophet... You see where I am going with this. That's not my belief, Tom. You're putting words in my mouth, which is against the rules of the board. I don't view being called to pastor as a "lower calling" than the calling to be a prophet. All the gifts in the church are necessary, and none are to look upon their gift as less important than any other gift. 1 Cor. 12. My point here is that God is free to choose anyone He wants to be His prophet, or to speak for Him. The NT contains standards for the selections of church officers, but when God chooses a prophet and gives someone dreams and visions, He obviously is free to choose whoever He selects without regard to any rules at all. The church must still abide by the standards set by the NT for church officers, including pastors and elders. In various ways, the church votes for its church officers, but it does not vote for a prophet. A true prophet's authority comes from God and doesn't rest on the authority of the church. For instance, a pastor is hired and fired by a church, whereas a prophet is selected by God and can therefore only be "fired" by God. If no one listens to a true prophet of God, it doesn't change the fact that he or she is a prophet. But if no one listens to the pastor, it won't be long before he ceases to be a pastor. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 How do I know God chose EGW as a prophet? The question is, who chose the prophets in the Bible? Were they selected by men or by God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Ellen White was selected by Jesus Christ as his messenger... I consider this blasphemy. Now Jesus did chose Paul directly, but according to you I must place EGW on the same level of authority as Paul. One word: NEVER! Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Personally, I'm amazed that God didn't just leave us to rot. The simple fact that He gave us His Word and His prophets speaks volumes about who He is. I don't NEED to look for inconsistancies. I'm eternally greatful to Ellen White. I welcome her experience and wisdom. Anyone who's had a direct glimpse of Heaven and direct communication from God HAS to be changed in some way or another, and I would say for the better. If I remember correctly, there were others who received the same visions as Ellen, but they didn't have the guts to take them to the world. Can you imagine the courage that this frail little girl had to muster? While others are looking for a "legalistic" way out, I'll enjoy my life aiming at the high standard that she set. I agree with you, bygjymbo. Like you, one of the first people I'll want to find in heaven is Sister White. I'll want to tell her how much I loved her messages and what they meant to me. If I could now, I'd want to tell her how sorry I am for the trouble she had to go through. During her life she had to endure a lot of groundless accusations, the same as she does today. You're right about the two others who received visions: Hazen Foss and William E. Foy. It appears that they were given some of the same early visions that Ellen White was shown. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 That's not my belief, Tom. You're putting words in my mouth, which is against the rules of the board. How many rules do you break, John? He that is without sin... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Like you, one of the first people I'll want to find in heaven is Sister White. And if she is not there? Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 Ellen White was selected by Jesus Christ as his messenger... I consider this blasphemy. I'm simply going by what Ellen White wrote, that the Lord commissioned her as His messenger. One of the quotes-- "From the year 1844 till the present time I have received messages from the Lord and have given them to His people. This is my work--to give to the people the light that the Lord gives me. I am commissioned to receive and communicate His messages. I am not to appear before the people as holding any other position than that of a messenger with a message." Testimonies for the Church Volume Eight (1904), page 237, paragraph 4 Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 That's not my belief, Tom. You're putting words in my mouth, which is against the rules of the board. How many rules do you break, John? He that is without sin... Here's the rule about what members may do if they feel that moderators are themselves breaking rules: Quote: If it is believed that any moderator is not abiding by the rules, the issue may be taken up in the moderators forum where all moderators can discuss the issue and come to a resolution. Any moderator may introduce a question or issue to the moderator's forum for a general discussion. If members believe a moderator has treated them unfairly, they may appeal to a moderator by means of PM, and if a moderator decides that the appeal has merit and should be heard by all the moderators, he may bring the appeal to the attention of a second moderator. If both moderators agree that it is an issue deserving of the attention of all the moderators, they should then move the issue to the moderator's forum for all the moderators to discuss and resolve. While it will not be necessary for all the moderators to take part in the discussion, yet in order to ensure fairness and objectivity, there should be no less than 4 moderators and 1 administrator who understand the issue and agree as to a solution. The issue should be resolved within 3 days of the time that it is introduced on the moderator's Forum. No one should lose their posting privileges, or moderator's privileges, until the issue is decided on the moderator's forum. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted January 15, 2009 Moderators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert The question is' date=' who chose the prophets in the Bible? Were they selected by men or by God? Nope...I'm not going there. EGW is not part of the Bible. End of discussion. [/quote'] We both agree that Ellen White is not part of the canon. Quote: We [Adventist?] need both the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Quote: And the other 2nd classes Christians need only the Bible, right? The SDA church teaches--and I believe-- that Ellen White was raised up by God specifically to communicate God's messages to Seventh-day Adventists. We have a particular work to do that is different from the rest of the Christian denominations; and to help us do that work, the church definitely does need the Spirit of Prophecy. But that doesn't mean that other Christians are "second class." God loves all Christians. God is calling the whole world to join us in accepting, practicing, and giving the Three Angels Messages. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 The SDA church teaches--and I believe-- that Ellen White was raised up by God specifically to communicate God's messages to Seventh-day Adventists. This is the markings of a cult! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: John317 A church does not choose a prophet; God does. How do I know God choose EGW as a prophet? This is complete conjecture. Am I to believe a bunch of legalistic, self-righteous hypocrites? Let me tell you what the SDA church needs to do with EGW: Burn every book she ever wrote and turn to the Bible. Rob "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Heresy: When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. [F&W 50] This is what Roman Catholicism teaches! You see the gospel is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. This is what saves. Any genuine fruit comes from accepting the gospel. But above we have the fallible EGW equating salvation to be faith plus works - a subtle form of legalism. In other words I do my best (let's say 20% law keeping) and Christ will give me credit for the 20% and make up the rest with His own merit (80%). Like I said, this is pure heresy. Roman teaches the same. Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert How do I know God choose EGW as a prophet? This is complete conjecture. Am I to believe a bunch of legalistic' date=' self-righteous hypocrites? Let me tell you what the SDA church needs to do with EGW: Burn every book she ever wrote and turn to the Bible. Rob [/quote'] "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." I believe what Robert is saying is that our church relies upon the writings of EGW too much and not enough on the bible.....Which is not a bad position to be in, don'tcha think, Olger? But I also see the other side of the coin....EGW does say a lot of things that are good and profitable for the church.....and she says something much simpler and without any imagination... Which I believe is the very polint that Robert is attempting to point out....perhaps a bit too crass, but his point is valid... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert How do I know God choose EGW as a prophet? This is complete conjecture. Am I to believe a bunch of legalistic' date=' self-righteous hypocrites? Let me tell you what the SDA church needs to do with EGW: Burn every book she ever wrote and turn to the Bible. Rob [/quote'] "Out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." You are no different than the Catholic who depends upon the Pope. You are going outside the Bible to develop your doctrines and truths. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Heresy: When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. [F&W 50] This is what Roman Catholicism teaches! You see the gospel is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. This is what saves. Any genuine fruit comes from accepting the gospel. But above we have the fallible EGW equating salvation to be faith plus works - a subtle form of legalism. In other words I do my best (let's say 20% law keeping) and Christ will give me credit for the 20% and make up the rest with His own merit (80%). Like I said, this is pure heresy. Roman teaches the same. Rob Robert, what is the context of this passage? Is it talking about the Christian? or is it talking about the unconverted man? If the latter, and the man has not heard the Gospel, how is he to be saved? If he is lost, it occurs to me that the situation is a bit unfair? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Robert Heresy: When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man’s best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. [F&W 50] This is what Roman Catholicism teaches! You see the gospel is what Christ did in our humanity 2000 years ago. This is what saves. Any genuine fruit comes from accepting the gospel. But above we have the fallible EGW equating salvation to be faith plus works - a subtle form of legalism. In other words I do my best (let's say 20% law keeping) and Christ will give me credit for the 20% and make up the rest with His own merit (80%). Like I said, this is pure heresy. Roman teaches the same. Rob Robert, what is the context of this passage? Is it talking about the Christian? or is it talking about the unconverted man? If the latter, and the man has not heard the Gospel, how is he to be saved? If he is lost, it occurs to me that the situation is a bit unfair? Look, I believe EGW has good things to say...no doubt, but these Historic/Traditional Adventists place her on the throne of infallibility! If, as she states, she is fallible, then as the gospel is restored we are going to find errors. The reason I call them "heresies" is because of the mindset of Historic/Traditional Adventists. If I go with their theology then EGW is a false prophet. If I go with her own statements then she is simply in error. Been there, done that... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 You are no different than the Catholic who depends upon the Pope. You are going outside the Bible to develop your doctrines and truths. heheh, thanks friend. I have come to expect such sweeping generalizations from you, and now I must patiently counsel you to get another broom. love in Christ, og Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil D Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Neil D Robert, what is the context of this passage? Is it talking about the Christian? or is it talking about the unconverted man? If the latter, and the man has not heard the Gospel, how is he to be saved? If he is lost, it occurs to me that the situation is a bit unfair? Look, I believe EGW has good things to say...no doubt, but these Historic/Traditional Adventists place her on the throne of infallibility! If, as she states, she is fallible, then as the gospel is restored we are going to find errors. The reason I call them "heresies" is because of the mindset of Historic/Traditional Adventists. If I go with their theology then EGW is a false prophet. If I go with her own statements then she is simply in error. Been there, done that... Regarding the Historic/traditional adventist: Same here..been there and done that...And just because I agree with the principle doesn't mean that I am going to let you get away with making some blanket statements without some concessions from you as to what you think she means..... I am NOT going to make this easy for you [hehehehe]... I suspect that the passage is talking about the natural man, not the converted one...You agree? And as for that crack about "this is what the Catholic Church teaches".....Come on,...aren't you being abit hard here? Sure, the gulf between man and God is HUGE....but even the bible says that when the prodigal was a "LONG WAY OFF", the father ran to him....Granted, the prodigal at that point was more converted than he was a natural man...but God does make up the difference...And in much of our wretched lives, as we realize that what efforts we make are worth less than the organic fertilizer we put on our gardens, nevertheless, there is still value to it. [Ok, maybe I am exagerating a bit like you have been]......And remember, all those other parables show that God went searching....the Woman for her lost coin, the Shepard for the lost sheep.... Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.  George Bernard Shaw  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 15, 2009 Administrators Share Posted January 15, 2009 But you [John317] are setting up a hierarchy based on this: a prophet is higher than a pastor or teacher... Precisely my point! And thus the inconsistency regarding the role and function of women in the church... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 15, 2009 Administrators Share Posted January 15, 2009 Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore According to John, men only are qualified for the lower calling of pastor and that women are not because they are to be subservient/submissive to men, etc... But a woman is qualified for the higher calling of prophet... You see where I am going with this. That's not my belief, Tom. You're putting words in my mouth, which is against the rules of the board. I don't view being called to pastor as a "lower calling" than the calling to be a prophet... I am invoking the rule of common sense here and would suggest that your response falls short in that department. I hardly see how I am putting words in your mouth by what I said. If you are refering to "lower calling" it is rather obvious to others (see above) and I would suggest a tad disingenous to try to dispute the obvious implications of what you have said. I have only summarized the obvious implications of your own statements. But if you are disputing my short summary of the thousands of words you have posted disputing the Biblical qualification of women to be pastors and presenting no argument nor agreeing with any Biblical evidence in support of women in pastoral ministry, then you, sir, are sadly mistaken. A sampling: Originally Posted By: John317 It's clear to me that the NT church did not have women pastors or elders. On the basis of the overwhelming, consistent pattern of male leadership throughout both the OT and NT periods, it's difficult for me to see how our church can defend the view that women should be leaders of local congregations. Originally Posted By: John317 When we use the idea of social progress as the support of women being elders and pastors, it must be understood that we are going outside the Bible for our support. Support for it must be found within the Bible, as it must be for all of the practices and teachings of our church. It must be shown, at the very least, that it does not contradict the teachings of the NT. Tom Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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