Dems Should Object Today

[Neil D]

[:"blue"] Nico, well, the objections over the handling of the elections is coming out into major media. This was taken from google and it should be rather helpful to bringing irregularitys to the notice of voters. [/]

John Nichols

American elections never play out perfectly. But the dramatic imperfections in the 2004 presidential election in Ohio, as detailed in a new report (see below) circulated by Representative John Conyers (news, bio, voting record) Jr., D-Michigan, deserve a more serious response than they received from the majority of Congressional Democrats. When Ohioans began to raise concerns about troublesome irregularities in the approach of Republican Secretary of State Ken Blackwell -- a Bush campaign apparatchik -- to conducting the November 2 election and counting the votes in the contest that ultimately decided the race between Bush and Democrat John Kerry (news - web sites), they initially got more encouragement from Greens and Libertarians than from national Democrats. But Conyers, the ranking Democrat on the House Judiciary Committee (news - web sites), took the complaints seriously enough to go to Ohio. There, he and minority staffers for the Judiciary Committee conducted hearings and investigations that cut through the hyperbole and got down to two basic conclusions: first, voting and vote counting procedures in Ohio were so flawed that they created circumstances where citizens were disenfranchised and, second, that legitimate questions about the problems with the Ohio election had not been resolved at the point when the state's electoral votes were cast for Bush. Accordingly, Conyers has announced that he will object to the certification of the results from Ohio when Congress is scheduled to review and approve Electoral College (news - web sites) votes this afternoon.

web page

[Neil D]

President Bush talks about pressuring Congress to pass legislation limiting jury awards for medical malpractice, during a visit to Collinsville, Ill., Wednesday, Jan. 5, 2005. In his first speechmaking trip of the new year and the first ever of a sitting president to Collinsville, Bush said that large malpractice awards have increased the cost of business so much that doctors have to close their businesses or scale back services. He said it also drives up the cost of personal health insurance.(AP Photo/Charles Rex Arbogast)

The Associated PressThe Associated Press

WASHINGTON Jan 6, 2005 — A small group of Democrats agreed Thursday to force House and Senate debates on Election Day problems in Ohio before letting Congress certify President Bush's win over Sen. John Kerry in November.

While Bush's victory is not in jeopardy, the Democratic challenge will force Congress to interrupt tallying the Electoral College vote, which had been scheduled to begin at 1 p.m. EST Thursday. It would be only the second time since 1877 that the House and Senate were forced into separate meetings to consider electoral votes.

Sen. Barbara Boxer, D-Calif., signed a challenge mounted by House Democrats to Ohio's 20 electoral votes, which put Bush over the top. By law, a protest signed by members of the House and Senate requires both chambers to meet separately for up to two hours to consider it. Lawmakers are allowed to speak for no more than five minutes each.

"I have concluded that objecting to the electoral votes from Ohio is the only immediate way to bring these issues to light by allowing you to have a two-hour debate to let the American people know the facts surrounding Ohio's election," Boxer wrote in a letter to Rep. Stephanie Tubbs Jones, D-Ohio, a leader of the Democratic effort.

The action seems certain to leave Bush's victory intact because both Republican-controlled chambers would have to uphold the objection for Ohio's votes to be invalidated. But supporters of the drive hope their move will shine a national spotlight on the Ohio voting problems.

Checkhere

for the complete ABC news story.

[Ron Lambert]

There is a serious need for thorough overhaul of our election mechanics. But the tactics Democrats are talking about using are going to reflect badly on them, making it look to most people like they are just being poor sports about the election they just lost. It is not just Ohio, which was one of the crucial deciding states; it is everywhere in the country, where the election system needs to be completely reviewed and better methods with better authentications implemented.

[Dr. Shane]

To be fair, it wasn't all Democrats but only a few extreamists. John Kerry wouldn't even join them. First time this has been done in over 100 years. It does make them look like sore losers. There are better ways to get reform passed - and it needs to be passed. Photo ID needs to be required when voting. That would end over 99% of voter fraud.

[Neil D]

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That would end over 99% of voter fraud.

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And a paper trail of the vote so as if there is a recount. As it is, there is far too many holes in the system.

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There are better ways to get reform passed - and it needs to be passed.

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I am glad to hear that you finally feel the need for this reform to go forward. It is too bad that you don't appreciate this for what it truely is...a vote for every American who registers, and a fair election and a fair election process.

[Nicodema]

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the tactics Democrats are talking about using are going to reflect badly on them, making it look to most people like they are just being poor sports about the election they just lost.

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That might be an accurate statement in this particular case. However, the problem I have with that statement is that this is the same line of thinking that was used to squelch and silent legitimate concerns over the 2000 election which was much more nose-to-nose critical in terms of raw numbers. The problem I have with this statement is that there are those who will spin it that way no matter WHAT tactics are used -- and already successfully have. If they can't socially engineer people OUT of contending against something by brandishing the fearsome spectre of how they will "look," the spinmeisters will gladly become the self-fulfilling prophecy and spin everything to look that way regardless of actual goals, motives or intents.

It's catch-22, d*mned whether you do or don't. In that light, and strictly in that light, it makes sense to say "d*mn the torpedoes, full speed ahead" and not care how one is perceived so long as the objective is accomplished.

[Dr. Shane]

I have been in favor of voting reform since I began voting. However the machines have limitations. The machines in tests, where all are told to vote "yes" still have a 1% error rate. Even with a paper trail there is human error and bias in recounting. So there is no perfect system. But we can get it down to less than 1% error. That wouldn't have been good enough for the 2000 election. However if we require picture IDs at least we will know that only living, regestared voters were allowed to vote.

[Neil D]

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hat might be an accurate statement in this particular case[:"red"]Regarding:the tactics Democrats are talking about using are going to reflect badly on them, [/] . However, the problem I have with that statement is that this is the same line of thinking that was used to squelch and silent legitimate concerns over the 2000 election which was much more nose-to-nose critical in terms of raw numbers

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I believe the name of the senator from California, Barbara Boxer, addressed this issue specifically in her opening statements over this. While she is talking about the need for every legitament vote to be counted and a paper trail established for recount purposes, the talking heads [ie Rush, O'Reily, Hana-wannabe] are pushing this [rush limbaugh voice over mode-on]"It's looking bad for the democrates, people" [mode-off]. Air America and each of thier talking heads give thier 15 minutes at various times, where as the republicans give 2 hrs out of thier 3 hour show on this....Tell me, if you are a radio listener, which is gonna reach the ears of the average radio listener?

[Dr. Shane]

How do we know if a vote is legitimate if the voter doesn't need picture ID? We don't. Voter fraud is so easy. However it is done more often in local elections than in national elections. Either way it needs to end and requiring a picture ID will end 99% of it.

I think talk-show hosts can talk about whatever they want, as long as they want. If they don't lose ratings they will keep doing it. However I wouldn't lump O'Reilly in with Limbaugh, Drudge or Hannity. O'Reilly is much closer to the middle and tries to be objective while being open about his bias.

[Neil D]

Ohio Election and Recount: Congress/Legal Experts weigh in on Ohio Election & Lawsuits

As Seen on TV!

1/7/05 - 4:30pm

Yesterday's unprecedented action by congressional Democrats may not have changed the ultimate outcome of the Electoral College, but it halted the process for four hours and forced the spotlight on glaring issues with the vote in Ohio and perhaps throughout the nation. “We’re here today, not as partisans for one presidential candidate or another, but because we want to do our duty under the Constitution to protect our Democracy,” Rep. John Conyers (D-Mich.) said before the House Judiciary committee. Conyers seemed to sum up well the overall position of Democrats, whether or not they voted to object to Ohio's electoral votes, they all agree that the process of voting in this country has a long way to go before it can stand up to scrutiny. Conyers went on to discuss “numerous, serious election irregularities in the Ohio presidential election” particularly voter disenfranchisement in predominantly Black areas, the transfer of voting machines from Black neighborhoods to suburban neighborhoods, and many instances where voters spent as much as 10 hours in the rain.

Wednesday, I spoke for some time on the phone with Daniel Tokaji, an Assistant Professor of Law at the Ohio State University's Moritz College of Law and an oft cited expert on Ohio election law. His areas of expertise include civil rights, freedom of speech, voting rights, disability rights, and civil procedure. He graduated summa cum laude from Harvard University and went on to Yale Law School where he obtained his J.D. Asked for some general comments regarding the vote in Ohio, Dan said there were 'clearly a lot of problems' but Dan added quickly that it was 'unlikely that any were large enough to swing the election. The only one that possibly could have was the long lines.' The long lines to which Tokaji was referring were the same ones discussed by Rep. Conyers.

Click here for the full story as to what the discussed discreptancys were....

[:"blue"] The article ended with these words, which I am sure will irk some of us who voted democratic.... [/]

Asked for any last comments, Professor Tokaji’s finished our conversation by letting me know that he thought “The Kerry campaign handled this in a good and rational way.”

[Neil D]

While I am posting, I thought I would point out just exactly what I am complaining about in the last 2 elections.

And for Shanes benefit, I will only post the URL so that this post is short.

Voting irregularities in Ohio

[Dr. Shane]

Go back in past elections and see how acurate exit polls have been. It is all conspiracy theories and paranoia. I am glad I never made a fool out of myself by not being able to accept election results. Hey, that just made me think. I bought some green grapes this evening and they are a little sour. I think I will go enjoy my sour grapes.

[bevin]

What about all the other reported irregularities?

You should not dismiss the whole argument just because you think one of the points raised may be not 100% convincing.

/Bevin