National ID?

[Rosie]

Anyone done research about the Intelligence Reform Bill that passed a few weeks ago? The national ID implementation and it's ramifications seem to be a main concern about this bill.

The press said little about this bill passing Congress, and the American people seem to be sleeping. What say you?

Bush Signs Intelligence Reform Bill Into Law:

http://globalsecurity.org/intell/library/news/2004/intell-041217-afps01.htm

It Can't Happen Here

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst122004.htm

HOMELAND INSECURITY?

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41828

McCain, 9/11 panel want national ID debate:

http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040816-061940-3291r

"Someone has to stand up and say, `Stop! We should not rush to implement a system that endangers the civil liberties of American citizens when there are better ways to combat terrorism without endangering the freedom that has defined the American way of life.' We will be working wholeheartedly to convince the administration and the public that a national ID card system is the absolute wrong turn to take," explained Jansen.

Said Lisa S. Dean, director of the Center for Technology Policy: "A national ID is a typical governmental 'baby and the bathwater' type of solution. You don't jeopardize the Constitutional rights of innocent law-abiding citizens just to bring foreign criminals to justice. That's not the way the U.S. justice system has traditionally worked and despite our national security concerns, we should not change the system now."

"Those in the government who claim that al-Qaeda despises the freedom and liberty that we enjoy here in the U.S. are being hypocritical because while they claim to love liberty, they are acting very quickly to take it away. You can't protect the Constitution by throwing it away," Dean said.

[Nicodema]

Rosie, expect the squawkers who cry "Chicken Little Syndrome!" to come bounding out of the woodwork now to try to naysay what you just posted. Funny how they never realized how ridiculous they sounded when they flapped and squawked about impending doom when someone other than their own ilk was at the reins, though Liberty herself were still sound for us all in those days. Yet the moment there are real threats to freedom, brought by their dumb idols of human flesh, and anyone stands up to caution as much, they are flapping their gums hurling insults calling you "chicken little" (the one who went around saying 'the sky is falling').

Well, we shall have to let Scripture answer their deceitful charges. I have said it before and will say it again: TIME IS to sound the Third Angel's message.

[:"green"]

9 Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.

11 "And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

13 And I heard a voice from heaven, saying, "Write, 'Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on!'" "Yes," says the Spirit, "so that they may rest from their labors, for their deeds follow with them."

[/]

-- Revelation 14:9-13

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

It Can't Happen Here

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst122004.htm

---

• "Undoubtedly many Americans and members of Congress don’t believe America is becoming a police state, which is reasonable enough.  They associate the phrase with highly visible symbols of authoritarianism like military patrols, martial law, and summary executions.  But we ought to be concerned that we have laid the foundation for tyranny by making the public more docile, more accustomed to government bullying, and more accepting of arbitrary authority -- all in the name of security."

[:"blue"]This is what I have been saying all along: that the foundation has indeed been laid in an unmistakable fashion and to an alarming degree, over the past four years and most notably post-9/11. The latter statement above reminds me of the old (but valid) analogy about the frog being slowly boiled to death as he simply adjusted to the new temperature each time the heat was turned up. In this case we are practically to 451* F., figuratively speaking (yes I realize "boiling" is 212* F; I was making a point here.)[/]

• Our love for liberty above all has been so diminished that we tolerate intrusions into our privacy that would have been abhorred just a few years ago.  We tolerate inconveniences and infringements upon our liberties in a manner that reflects poorly on our great national character of rugged individualism.  American history, at least in part, is a history of people who don’t like being told what to do.  Yet we are increasingly empowering the federal government and its agents to run our lives.

[:"blue"] -- All the while said federal government and agencies are becoming increasingly run and/or influenced by the supposed party of "less government". No self-respecting Republican would affiliate with such a bombastic mockery of his own party operating these days, except that politics is so often like college ball anymore. No one cares that the old alma mater is full of boozing fratboy ne'er-do-wells anymore, churning out mediocrities who bring shame upon its previously sterling academic reputation. All they care about is that the name attached to themselves is the one listed on the scoreboard as winning. [/]

• Terror, fear, and crises like 9-11 are used to achieve complacency and obedience, especially when citizens are deluded into believing they are still a free people.  The loss of liberty, we are assured, will be minimal, short-lived, and necessary.  Many citizens believe that once the war on terror is over, restrictions on their liberties will be reversed.  But this war is undeclared and open-ended, with no precise enemy and no expressly stated final goal.  Terrorism will never be eradicated completely; does this mean future presidents will assert extraordinary war powers indefinitely?

[:"blue"]Yes, these are their bald-faced lies, for it has even been reported that they have said themselves this war (the "war on terror") CANNOT be won and HAS no end. It is like declaring war on war itself -- there will always be someone to rise up and do violence to someone and as long as there is, these ilk will use it to justify seizing abusive levels of intrusive power over others which cannot halt the tide of terrorism or violence in the first place because you cannot fight Satan with Satan, you cannot fight fire with fire, you cannot destroy evil with more evil.[/]

• After all, proponents argue, the government is doing all this to catch the bad guys.  If you don’t have anything to hide, they ask, what are you so afraid of?  The answer is that I’m afraid of losing the last vestiges of privacy that a free society should hold dear.  I’m afraid of creating a society where the burden is on citizens to prove their innocence, rather than on government to prove wrongdoing.  Most of all, I’m afraid of living in a society where a subservient populace surrenders its liberties to an all-powerful government.

[:"red"]And well he should be, as should you and I be, afraid to live in that kind of society. Not hiding in our closets kind of afraid, but out in the streets raising our voices kind of afraid. Making a noise, making a stink, not caring what others will think. We have got to lose this self consciousness of constantly worrying about, caring about, what others will think. SOMETIMES IT JUST PLAIN DOESN'T MATTER, LET THEM THINK WHAT THEY WILL!! Just SPEAK OUT and PRAY!!![/]

• It may be true that average Americans do not feel intimidated by the encroachment of the police state.  Americans remain tolerant of what they see as mere nuisances because they have been deluded into believing total government supervision is necessary and helpful, and because they still enjoy a high level of material comfort.

[:"brown"] Do we see the hand of "rich and increased with goods" in this equation? Hmmm? Praise God I was freed from my job last April. Praise God I can work freelance and tend to the child He has "loaned" to me through another to love and care for when I wanted a baby in my life but could not have any more of my own. Praise God HE supplies ALL my needs. He has found me a good therapist and psychiatrist to help me with my mental health as well, and He has helped me to understand on my level what purpose my mental afflictions might play in His plan. Everything I ask Him for He gives me, like a good Father, all good gifts, all that is good FOR me. And of course He loves me and forgives my sins and weaknesses and promises me in the New Earth I won't have to want things that are bad or destructive for me, or have no control over my thoughts and become confused over that. He has promised I won't be a bad child but a good one, because He will remake me.[/]

• That tolerance may wane, however, as our standard of living falls due to spiraling debt, endless deficit spending at home and abroad, a declining fiat dollar, inflation, higher interest rates, and failing entitlement programs.  At that point attitudes toward omnipotent government may change, but the trend toward authoritarianism will be difficult to reverse.

[:"blue"] It has already become impossible to reverse at this point short of armed revolution, and armed uprising simply will not happen. The government controls citizens' access to arms and ability to organize ALREADY. Nope, this is it, folks: the final movements will be rapid ones indeed. "Will be"? Make that ARE.[/]

• Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history.  Every government, democratic or not, is capable of tyranny.  We must understand this if we hope to remain a free people."

[:"purple"] I fully and completely intend to protest this on a personal level as a violation of my religious liberties based on Revelation 13 and 14. I don't CARE if they think I'm deluded or fanatical. I DON'T CARE. I DO NOT FEAR BEING THOUGHT INSANE, THAT IS PART OF THE FREEDOM OF BEING MENTALLY ILL!!! If I am wrong, I am wrong -- so be it. It harms no one else for me to protest this, it only harms myself, right?

So I invite others to do likewise. Then we will see whether this government is really so "faith based" as it wants everyone to believe it is, or whether in truth it cannot abide someone saying "Jesus told me not to do this, and it's in His word, and this is the land of religious liberty and I am asking for a Christian liberty specifically -- not the liberty to be homosexual or practice witchcraft but the liberty to follow the Bible -- will you grant it to me OR NOT??" -- Of course we ALL know what the answer is going to be!!![/]

[Rosie]

More:

Congressman Ron Paul Denounces National ID Card:

December 7, 2004

Washington, DC- Congressman Ron Paul today denounced the national ID card provisions contained in the intelligence bill being voted on in the U.S. House of Representatives, while urging his colleagues to reject the bill and its new layers of needless bureaucracy.

“National ID cards are not proper in a free society,” Paul stated. “This is America, not Soviet Russia. The federal government should never be allowed to demand papers from American citizens, and it certainly has no constitutional authority to do so.”

“A national identification card, in whatever form it may take, will allow the federal government to inappropriately monitor the movements and transactions of every American,” Paul continued. “History shows that governments inevitably use such power in harmful ways. The 9-11 commission, whose recommendations underlie this bill, has called for internal screening points where identification will be demanded. Domestic travel restrictions are the hallmark of authoritarian states, not free nations. It is just a matter of time until those who refuse to carry the new licenses will be denied the ability to drive or board an airplane.”

“Nationalizing standards for drivers licenses and birth certificates, and linking them together via a national database, creates a national ID system pure and simple. Proponents of the national ID understand that the public remains wary of the scheme, so they attempt to claim they’re merely creating new standards for existing state IDs. Nonsense! This legislation imposes federal standards in a federal bill, and it creates a federalized ID regardless of whether the ID itself is still stamped with the name of your state.”

“Those who are willing to allow the government to establish a Soviet-style internal passport system because they think it will make us safer are terribly mistaken,” Paul concluded. “Subjecting every citizen to surveillance and screening points actually will make us less safe, not in the least because it will divert resources away from tracking and apprehending terrorists and deploy them against innocent Americans! Every conservative who believes in constitutional restraints on government should reject the authoritarian national ID card and the nonsensical intelligence bill itself.”

http://www.house.gov/paul/press/press2004/pr120704.htm

Be sure to bookmark his page if you want updates. He's not afraid to speak up on issues affecting the liberties of the American people. Too bad he's such a rarity among our representratives.

http://www.house.gov/paul/legis.shtml

[Neil D]

Rosie,

I just got thru looking over those links, and to be quite honest, they are somewhat scary.

The concept of a free society and that same free society requiring a national identification system, ie a national card, does carry with it some strong arguements on both sides of the issue. And if there were some microchip implant on the right hand or in the forehead, there are sure to be some red flags that many fundelmentalists groups are gonna protest about.

And then there is the question of why do we need this identification system, especially if members of the free society are prone to forget thier drivers license occasionally? What if you live in a metro area and don't need a drivers liscence? Is there a second shadow goverment within our current goverment that really dictates the moves of society?

Some truely heavey duty questions that portend of conspiracy theorys galore.....

[Rosie]

I just wrote a long post in answer to Nico's great comments above and lost it all.

I'm getting adjusted to this board and hit the wrong button or something.

"Poof"

[Rosie]

It Can't Happen Here

http://www.house.gov/paul/tst/tst2004/tst122004.htm

"Undoubtedly many Americans and members of Congress don’t believe America is becoming a police state, which is reasonable enough. They associate the phrase with highly visible symbols of authoritarianism like military patrols, martial law, and summary executions. But we ought to be concerned that we have laid the foundation for tyranny by making the public more docile, more accustomed to government bullying, and more accepting of arbitrary authority -- all in the name of security."

Quote:

---

This is what I have been saying all along: that the foundation has indeed been laid in an unmistakable fashion and to an alarming degree, over the past four years and most notably post-9/11. The latter statement above reminds me of the old (but valid) analogy about the frog being slowly boiled to death as he simply adjusted to the new temperature each time the heat was turned up. In this case we are practically to 451* F., figuratively speaking (yes I realize "boiling" is 212* F; I was making a point here.)

---

Good analogy. The American people don’t even realize they are in hot water, how will they notice when it’s too hot to bear? The media is basically silent on this issue, only telling the American people what they want to hear. Court trials, pop culture, Hollywood scandal, weather reports, that’s the news we want! The truth about what’s happening to our Constitution behind our backs? Nah. Who want’s to hear about that?

Our love for liberty above all has been so diminished that we tolerate intrusions into our privacy that would have been abhorred just a few years ago. We tolerate inconveniences and infringements upon our liberties in a manner that reflects poorly on our great national character of rugged individualism. American history, at least in part, is a history of people who don’t like being told what to do. Yet we are increasingly empowering the federal government and its agents to run our lives.

[:"black"] [/]

Quote:

---

All the while said federal government and agencies are becoming increasingly run and/or influenced by the supposed party of "less government". No self-respecting Republican would affiliate with such a bombastic mockery of his own party operating these days, except that politics is so often like college ball anymore. No one cares that the old alma mater is full of boozing fratboy ne'er-do-wells anymore, churning out mediocrities who bring shame upon its previously sterling academic reputation. All they care about is that the name attached to themselves is the one listed on the scoreboard as winning.

---

While our nation and it's people are losing.

Terror, fear, and crises like 9-11 are used to achieve complacency and obedience, especially when citizens are deluded into believing they are still a free people. The loss of liberty, we are assured, will be minimal, short-lived, and necessary. Many citizens believe that once the war on terror is over, restrictions on their liberties will be reversed. But this war is undeclared and open-ended, with no precise enemy and no expressly stated final goal. Terrorism will never be eradicated completely; does this mean future presidents will assert extraordinary war powers indefinitely?

[:"black"] [/]

Quote:

---

Yes, these are their bald-faced lies, for it has even been reported that they have said themselves this war (the "war on terror") CANNOT be won and HAS no end. It is like declaring war on war itself -- there will always be someone to rise up and do violence to someone and as long as there is, these ilk will use it to justify seizing abusive levels of intrusive power over others which cannot halt the tide of terrorism or violence in the first place because you cannot fight Satan with Satan, you cannot fight fire with fire, you cannot destroy evil with more evil.

---

There is no going back.

After all, proponents argue, the government is doing all this to catch the bad guys. If you don’t have anything to hide, they ask, what are you so afraid of? The answer is that I’m afraid of losing the last vestiges of privacy that a free society should hold dear. I’m afraid of creating a society where the burden is on citizens to prove their innocence, rather than on government to prove wrongdoing. Most of all, I’m afraid of living in a society where a subservient populace surrenders its liberties to an all-powerful government.

[:"black"] [/] .

Quote:

---

And well he should be, as should you and I be, afraid to live in that kind of society. Not hiding in our closets kind of afraid, but out in the streets raising our voices kind of afraid. Making a noise, making a stink, not caring what others will think. We have got to lose this self consciousness of constantly worrying about, caring about, what others will think. SOMETIMES IT JUST PLAIN DOESN'T MATTER, LET THEM THINK WHAT THEY WILL!! Just SPEAK OUT and PRAY!!!

---

So many believe these "war on terrorrism" tactics by our government are nothing for law-abiding citizens to worry about. Only the guilty need fear restrictions imposed on all, right?

When liberties, such as the right to a fair trial, are lost to a select few, and we allow this to go on under our noses, we all become losers. How do we know who the next targets might be? "Terrrorists" now, sabbathkeepers later?

I was elected Religious Liberty leader for our church last month, so I feel a great responsibility, not only to wake others up, but myself as well. Those quotes I posted on the other thread last night about men of God becoming involved in politics were in connection to the “Houses of Worship Free Speech Restoration Act”. The union of church and state is what mainstream churches are demanding. And we, who have been warned of the dangers ahead, are fast asleep.

It may be true that average Americans do not feel intimidated by the encroachment of the police state. Americans remain tolerant of what they see as mere nuisances because they have been deluded into believing total government supervision is necessary and helpful, and because they still enjoy a high level of material comfort.

That tolerance may wane, however, as our standard of living falls due to spiraling debt, endless deficit spending at home and abroad, a declining fiat dollar, inflation, higher interest rates, and failing entitlement programs. At that point attitudes toward omnipotent government may change, but the trend toward authoritarianism will be difficult to reverse.

[:"black"] [/]

Quote:

---

It has already become impossible to reverse at this point short of armed revolution, and armed uprising simply will not happen. The government controls citizens' access to arms and ability to organize ALREADY. Nope, this is it, folks: the final movements will be rapid ones indeed. "Will be"? Make that ARE.

---

Remember Waco. The American government turning on it’s own citizens has precedents we too soon forget.

Those who believe a police state can't happen here are poor students of history. Every government, democratic or not, is capable of tyranny. We must understand this if we hope to remain a free people."

[:"black"] [/]

Quote:

---

I fully and completely intend to protest this on a personal level as a violation of my religious liberties based on Revelation 13 and 14. I don't CARE if they think I'm deluded or fanatical. I DON'T CARE. I DO NOT FEAR BEING THOUGHT INSANE, THAT IS PART OF THE FREEDOM OF BEING MENTALLY ILL!!! If I am wrong, I am wrong -- so be it. It harms no one else for me to protest this, it only harms myself, right?

So I invite others to do likewise. Then we will see whether this government is really so "faith based" as it wants everyone to believe it is, or whether in truth it cannot abide someone saying "Jesus told me not to do this, and it's in His word, and this is the land of religious liberty and I am asking for a Christian liberty specifically -- not the liberty to be homosexual or practice witchcraft but the liberty to follow the Bible -- will you grant it to me OR NOT??" -- Of course we ALL know what the answer is going to be!!!

---

I am committed to get off my butt and at least say something to as many people as I can. Thanks for your words of support

[Rosie]

Here's another commentary:

Will you accept a national ID card?

Devvy Kidd

Quote:

---

It is my duty, my moral responsibility to challenge any law passed by either Congress or my state legislature that I feel is unconstitutional or violates my rights. This is supposed to be a government of, by and for the people. That isn't possible if the people lay down and take whatever is dished out to them because it's the path of least resistance. Laws are challenged all the time and overturned more often than people realize.

America needs courage and leadership. Congress needs to hear from millions of Americans who tell them unequivocally that they will not accept a national identification card or driver's license. Our Founding Fathers and the thousands who fought the other King George for our freedom and independence spilled real blood by the thousands of gallons on the battlefield. I will not shame such a legacy or the memory of all who went before me just because the path ahead is a difficult one.

Too many will cower while they get fitted with their chains. I won't be one of them.

---

http://www.wnd.com/news/printer-friendly.asp?ARTICLE_ID=41987

[Ron Lambert]

A national ID card would not be a bad thing in itself; it would provide a picture ID for people who do not have drivers licenses, and would reduce fraud and identity theft, and make things harder for terrorists. What many people fear is how it might be misused. But we already have social security numbers, without which you cannot get a job. They could be misused too, and some people do still complain and mutter dire warnings about them. But so far they have not been misused, at least by the government (criminals try to use them to steal your identity and obtain credit cards in your name). The question is, should we allow something that has obvious benefits, or oppose it because of the potential for future misuse?

In order for social security numbers, or a national ID card, to be misused by the government, other serious changes would have to take place in our society. We would be better off guarding against real national apostasy, than every little thing that might one day be bent to the service of an apostasy that is yet future.

Besides the consideration of avoiding wasting our time on trivial things, there is also the cry wolf factor. If we keep issuing dire warnings about how every proposal that comes down the pike could lead to the mark of the beast, very soon people will get tired of our groundless alarmism. Then when the real apostasy does begin, and we try to cry out a warning against it, no one will listen, because our past crying wolf will have discredited us.

[bevin]

I think this whole issue is over-rated, and agree with Ron that a single ID card would be a good thing.

There is enough computer power and enough forms of ID today (credit cards, drivers licenses) that we effectively have a single ID card. The only thing actually having one would do is push kids and homeless into the system also.

Throughout history dicators have used people's personal fear of being the only one to complain as the basis for maintaining power. Dictators have been overthrown when somehow a core group has managed to covertly gain enough organization that they can all appear on the streets at once, and enough force that the dictator can't get enough forces together to arrest them.

The SDA church needs to start teaching its people about their right to vote for the opposition, and to protest when their government does things they disagree with.

The SDA church in Germany did not oppose Hitler. We need to learn a lesson from this.

/Bevin

[Rosie]

Quote:

---

We would be better off guarding against real national apostasy, than every little thing that might one day be bent to the service of an apostasy that is yet future.

---

Just wondering, how far do you think a government (specifically one built to secure liberty for all it's citizens) can safely ignore it's own constitution before it's considered "apostate"?

Where is the magic dividing line of "apostasy" so we will know when it's crossed? When 10 freedoms are flushed down the drain? 20? 30? When all freedoms are lost and we are living in a police state, unable to move without the proper papers? You think that wood be a good time to "speak up"?

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

... it would provide a picture ID for people who do not have drivers licenses

---

States already provide this. Most states I know of have what is called a "state ID card" available for those who do not drive.

Quote:

---

and would reduce fraud and identity theft, and make things harder for terrorists.

---

As someone who has worked in information technology since 1997, and specifically worked in government IT as a contractor for 3.5 years, I seriously question the validity of this statement.

Quote:

---

What many people fear is how it might be misused. But we already have social security numbers, without which you cannot get a job. They could be misused too, and some people do still complain and mutter dire warnings about them.

---

True enough, and there is no guarantee that these cannot and will not be misused in the future in conjunction with any other devices for tracking the lives of private citizens.

Quote:

---

The question is, should we allow something that has obvious benefits, or oppose it because of the potential for future misuse?

---

The question is a bit more complex than that. It is a question of weighing the claimed benefits of such a system against the obvious concerns not just of negative potential in the future but of cumulative infringements upon privacy in the here and now.

That's how I see it, anyway.

Quote:

---

In order for social security numbers, or a national ID card, to be misused by the government, other serious changes would have to take place in our society.

---

Some of us perceive that these changes have already taken place, and that a groundwork has been laid which constitutes a point of no return.

Quote:

---

We would be better off guarding against real national apostasy, than every little thing that might one day be bent to the service of an apostasy that is yet future.

---

We are told national apostasy will come, and will be followed by national ruin. Real national apostasy is determined by the direction of the leadership, not the rank and file citizens. The abomination of desolation stands in the holy place; already man's dark suppositions and portrayals of God are revered above the Truth about the Man Jesus Himself. In my mind I can only ask, what further proof need ye?

Quote:

---

Besides the consideration of avoiding wasting our time on trivial things, there is also the cry wolf factor. If we keep issuing dire warnings about how every proposal that comes down the pike could lead to the mark of the beast, very soon people will get tired of our groundless alarmism.

---

The time to have worried about this was 10 years or so ago, and is now long past. We who see the real wolf now have to fight the effects of this ourselves, manifest in our very midst, thanks to those who selfishly cried wolf for their own amusement, despicable attempts at social engineering, and political gains.

However, you have nothing to fear from me regarding any "cry wolf factor". If the four winds are regathered and the tides of history are turned once again upon the course of Liberty, I will be the first one to admit that I "cried wolf" and was in error, and I have no doubt but that like unto the Great Disappointment, God Himself can even use such things to bring greater good to His glory from them.

Quote:

---

Then when the real apostasy does begin, and we try to cry out a warning against it, no one will listen, because our past crying wolf will have discredited us.

---

[:"red"]

Matthew 16:1-3 --

1 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven. 2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red. 3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?[/]

[Nicodema]

Quote:

---

The SDA church needs to start teaching its people about their right to vote for the opposition, and to protest when their government does things they disagree with.

The SDA church in Germany did not oppose Hitler. We need to learn a lesson from this.

---

I find no fault, and much wisdom, in these suggestions. Yes, this is the basic bottom line we can and ought to be doing in our churches.

To clarify my own position: I am not contending that there is a direct equation between a national ID card and the mark of the beast, that is, I do not believe the national ID card itself CONSTITUTES the mark of the beast. To me it is just yet another direct indicator of the quiet chiseling away of individual liberties that is going on in our nation, yet another indicator of the direction our nation is turning toward, a direction I believe DOES constitute the beast being "on the rise" and IS headed for "the mark", and thus a valid time to sound the Third Angel's message as a means of exposing the nature of the beast: a corrupt religio-political power fashioned in the image of the first beast long ago and employing the language and trappings of Christianity to accomplish its purposes (thus deceiving not just millions but millions of those who ought to know better if it were really Jesus they were following).

I don't want to be an "alarmist" either, but I am strongly convicted that the current socio-political atmosphere matches that we have been foretold to watching for as indicative of the beast power. Not merely because of the strong involvement of a religious element -- that could be explained by generational shifts in perceived needs, worldviews, etc. leading to people being overall more religious and wanting leaders to reflect that. But when this comes in tandem with increasing erosions of liberty justified continually by a state of perceived unending (and unresolvable) crisis? Sorry folks, that's all the earmarks rolled into one, and you'd have to literally rewrite 156 years (approx.) of SDA prophetic tradition to get me to think differently on that one.

[Pockey]

It's pretty amazing and startling at how fast things are changing. So much has happened in just the past 3 years alone. For me, it's definitely a wake-up call. The signs are all around us.

[Bravus]

I'm usually that guy who is all skeptical about these kinds of issues: maybe it was hearing a preacher when I was a kid who thought it unlikely this world would make it to 1980...

But this, along with the ID card proposals in the UK, does worry me, especially in relation to all the other civil liberties that are being eroded at the moment. Let me be non-partisan about it: to think this kind of national ID system is a good idea, you have to trust the government. Some of you do trust the current government, some don't but that's not the point: if you can imagine an untrustworthy government (and all of us who lived in the 20th century can think of plenty of examples from Hitler to Idi Amin and Pol Pot and...), then you ought to be against an identity card system, because even if you trust the current government, at some point there will likely arise one you don't - and it will be too late to go back.

This is where I meet up with the libertarian Right! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

[bevin]

I really think the National Id card is NOT the problem - and fighting it is a waste of effort.

This is the problem...

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050109/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/guantanamo_three_years

The USA is setting up permanent off-shore facilities for holding people indefinitely without trials.

This is what the citizens of the USA should be up in arms about. This, not the National Id card, is what is going to give the government totalitarian teeth.

/Bevin

[Bravus]

Agreed: but couldn't a national ID system make it easier for them to lay their hands on the people they want to send there?

[Dr. Shane]

The US and most all countries already have a national ID. It is called a passport. If you are American and worried about the federal government tracking you, it is too late. Your social security number gives them the ability to know where you are working and how much you are making. From there it doesn't take much to track anyone down. Unless you are self-employed and not paying taxes - which is illegal.

[Pockey]

Quote:

---

This is what the citizens of the USA should be up in arms about. This, not the National Id card, is what is going to give the government totalitarian teeth.

---

I think it's all related.

Quote:

---

The US and most all countries already have a national ID. It is called a passport. If you are American and worried about the federal government tracking you, it is too late.

---

True, but tracking people through passports, SS#, etc are filled with bureaucratic red tape. Often anything that takes any effort, will be met with some resistance. Restructering the ID system will make things a lot easier. Pretty soon, I bet there will no longer be tangible paper money/coins. Our ID cards will serve as our "credit cards"...further going down the slippery slope.

[Bravus]

And we should be thinking about it in a slightly more sophisticated way. Yes, Social Security Numbers exist (I even have a fake one that I use for the NSF!) But what this act does is not so much create the ID card, which is nothing new, but give the government the power to link a whole lot of existing databases up to create a very detailed portrait of your whole life. Sure, it would be easy to track you down using your SSN, but there are quite stringent guidelines, similar to the wiretapping guidelines, that require probable cause and judicial oversight for that kind of thing. This act is making a serious difference in how much is available. And even if you *do* trust the government - and any and all possible subsequent governments - there's always this: http://bravus.port5.com/blog/index.php?p=50

[Ron Lambert]

That is an interesting point about passports. Would a national ID then take the place of passports, since it would in essense be the same thing?

My understanding for the past forty years (since I became SDA at age 16) has been that what signals national apostasy is the enactment of a National Sunday Law in the United States of America. Nothing less, and nothing else than this will signal the real commencement of national apostasy, because this will be the act that sets aside the Constitution in the most decisive manner and signal the end of religious liberty. People keep coming up with different events that they personally take exception to, and construe them to be signs of national apostasy. This is no more than subjectivism. Neither Bible truth nor a true interpretation of Bible prophecy are dependent upon any subjectivism. 2 Timonthy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20. Besides, Ellen G. White was explicit about this.

[Rosie]

Quote:

---

[:"blue"] My understanding for the past forty years (since I became SDA at age 16) has been that what signals national apostasy is the enactment of a National Sunday Law in the United States of America. [/]

---

I think you are transposing points about Sunday laws onto what's been posted concerning this national ID. Who said anything about Sunday Laws?

My concern, (and others have the same concerns, men such as Ron Paul, who are not SDA,) is that our government is doing away with it's very foundational principles, and setting in motion all that will be needed to make this country a police state.

So if you feel, as an Adventist, that "Sunday laws" are all we need worry about, and we should not fret about other restrictions on our liberties and erosions of our Constitutional rights, then by all means bury your head in the sand and pretend things are just as they should be in America.

Quote:

---

[:"blue"] Nothing less, and nothing else than this will signal the real commencement of national apostasy, because this will be the act that sets aside the Constitution in the most decisive manner and signal the end of religious liberty. [/]

---

And when liberty is ended, it may be too late for us to speak up.

This is the problem I see with many Adventists. They think they will wake up when the time is upon them and neglect what they could have done before it was too late. I wonder if this is what God desires? People are being persecuted right here and now on the Sabbath issue, but the Adventist majoriy are waiting for the "Sunday Law" before they will become involved.

Quote:

---

[:"blue"]People keep coming up with different events that they personally take exception to, and construe them to be signs of national apostasy. This is no more than subjectivism. Neither Bible truth nor a true interpretation of Bible prophecy are dependent upon any subjectivism. 2 Timonthy 3:16; 2 Peter 1:20. Besides, Ellen G. White was explicit about this. [/]

---

Apostasy is not limited to religion, and this nation has already apostasicized from her first loyalty, the principles she was founded on. What you describe, the Sunday Laws, are the last evidence of apostasy, not the first.

Quote:

---

The substitution of the laws of men for the law of God, the exaltation, by merely human authority, of Sunday in place of the Bible Sabbath, is the last act in the drama.

When our nation shall so abjure the principles of its government as to enact a Sunday law, Protestantism will in this act join hands with popery; it will be nothing else than giving life to the tyranny which has long been eagerly watching its opportunity to spring again into active despotism. -- Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 712.

By the decree of enforcing the institution of the Papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness.

When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with Spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and Republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan, and that the end is near.-- Testimonies, vol. 5, p. 451.

---

Was EGW "explicit" about Adventists sitting on their hands until the moment Sunday Laws are upon us?

Not quite.

Quote:

---

Christian Service, page 162, paragraph 1

Chapter Title: Religious Liberty

We as a people have not accomplished the work which God has committed to us. We are not ready for the issue to which the enforcement of the Sunday law will bring us.

It is our duty, as we see the signs of approaching peril, to arouse to action. Let none sit in calm expectation of the evil, comforting themselves with the belief that this work must go on because prophecy has foretold it, and that the Lord will shelter his people.

We are not doing the will of God if we sit in quietude, doing nothing to preserve liberty of conscience. Fervent, effectual prayer should be ascending to heaven that this calamity may be deferred until we can accomplish the work which has so long been neglected. Let there be more earnest prayer; and then let us work in harmony with our prayers. -- Testimonies, vol. 5, pp. 713, 714.

It is our duty to do all in our power to avert the threatened danger. We should endeavor to disarm prejudice by placing ourselves in a proper light before the people. We should bring before them the real question at issue, thus interposing the most effectual protest against measures to restrict liberty of conscience.

-- Testimonies, vol. 5 p. 452.

---

[Neil D]

Quote:

---

My concern, (and others have the same concerns, men such as Ron Paul, who are not SDA,) is that our government is doing away with it's very foundational principles, and setting in motion all that will be needed to make this country a police state.

---

Ah, someone who thinks like I do....!

Quote:

---

This is the problem I see with many Adventists. They think they will wake up when the time is upon them and neglect what they could have done before it was too late. I wonder if this is what God desires? People are being persecuted right here and now on the Sabbath issue, but the Adventist majoriy are waiting for the "Sunday Law" before they will become involved.

---

I have always believed that there were things that lead up to this point and that this "Sunday Law" was the last point in which a few die hards needed to turn around. We are all frogs in a giant pan of water that has been ever so slowly warming up...some of us are begining to feel a bit too warm and a few others are opposing us because "that's not how the end comes about".....Better wake up and pull out that thermometer [bible/EGW]...It's getting a bit warmer since those blue laws went into effect 30-40 years ago...And some of them have been repealed, but many are on the books....

Quote:

---

Apostasy is not limited to religion, and this nation has already apostasicized from her first loyalty, the principles she was founded on. What you describe, the Sunday Laws, are the last evidence of apostasy, not the first.

---

Amen! Amen! Amen!

Thank you, from a conservative perspective, Rosey, a liberal's POV.

[Bravus]

I guess I'll chime in on that one too. I think you're right on the traditional Adventist interpretation, Ron, and in terms of the prophetic symbols, that perspective makes sense. I think in some ways it's sensible to disentangle the prophetic issues from just plain commonsense issues about civil liberties and the potential for abuse. If it came in, would the National ID Card be the foundation of the Beast System, or even a significant pointer towards that? Maybe, maybe not - uch too early to tell. But is it in many ways just a Bad Idea? Probably.

[Dr. Shane]

There have been many little steps in the road to the internatioal Sunday law that the US will force upon the world.

Marshall v. Madison was perhaps the first step. It increased or defined the Supreme Court's authority. The Civil War was another which dramatically increased the power of the Federal Government. The creation of the Federal Reserve was another. US involvement in WW1 was a significant step. The formation of the United Nations was another significant step.

I don't see a national ID card as being anymore significant than the creation of Social Security.