Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 25, 2009 I think Paul would say what he said to someone who is not able. It looks like the word "not" somehow did not get into the sentence. It should read: I think Paul would NOT say what he said to someone who is not able. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 25, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 25, 2009 Quote: If anyone is not willing to work, let him not eat." 2 Thes 3:10 Gary, surely you have a better position than that? Context? What about the poition that Christ had, posted by Bravus? I believe you are an opponet of the sigle text hit and run!! Do you think Paul was contradicting Jesus' sermon on the mt? Do you think it is "reasonable and sensible" to keep giving to someone who is perfectly able but is not willing to work? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 25, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 25, 2009 No, of course not - but the point being made here is that that text was posted as though it was the whole story when it is clearly not. Those on the right politically want to pretend that all welfare payments go to those who won't work, when obviously welfare payments are intended for those who can't. We exxagerate our points in these discussions, and of course there's a balance - I don't believe in welfare for the lazy. But the existence of some lazy people is being used as a pretext to destroy the programs that help the disadvantaged. Like the programs that have let Shane get where he is today from his tough beginnnings. Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 26, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 26, 2009 You won't find any post of mine denigrating welfare. I've seen enough poverty to know it is needed. I quoted Paul to show that there has to be a balance between compassion for the poor and not encouraging sloth for those who are able. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 26, 2009 Then we're in agreement! (funny how often that happens when we think we're arguing, if we take the time to calmly explain!) Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Gary, surely you have a better position than that? Context? What about the poition that Christ had, posted by Bravus? I believe you are an opponet of the sigle text hit and run!! Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Quote: compassion for the poor Compassion is a great and necessary thing. What I don't get is how passing a law seizing money from others to then give to the poor indicates compassion on my part. The task of Christians is persuasion, not compulsion. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 What I don't get is how passing a law seizing money from others to then give to the poor indicates compassion on my part. There it is! Now, my problem with gov't welfare is this... Who decides how much of my money should be taken from me and given to the 'poor'? 5%, 10%, 15%, 25%.... what? Who is the almighty wise and compassionate person or committee that I should not question? How deep should the gov't reach into my pocket? At what point will the gov't say, "We have taken enough from the people and we'll stop digging any deeper"? How much should we give the deserving? Who decides that? At what point do we determine that recipients have been taking welfare long enough... if they are 2nd generation.... third, fourth? Should there be any incentive to get recipients back to work? If so, what? If they refuse, what should the consequence be? Other than voting in general elections, do I as a member of the community that I'm forced to help have the right to have any say in the collection and distribution of my funds? Bravus, I'd really like your answers to these questions, not a side step. If you were my political leader or running for office, what honest, straight-up answers would you give me? We'll get into the upcoming Universal Health Care later. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Bravus Posted February 26, 2009 Author Moderators Share Posted February 26, 2009 Answer one question for me: if Christians and others will give without compulsion, why is there still poverty? Is there a society anywhere in the world, anywhere in history, where poverty is alleviated by personal philanthropy? Or is the universal pattern, even in 'Christian nations' and even within Christian church communities, that the rich get more comfortable while the poor get into even more desparate situations? Is there anyone poor in your church? Why? And what happened to 'it's not my money, it's God's'? Quote Truth is important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Quote: if Christians and others will give without compulsion, why is there still poverty? If Christians and others will obey God's law without compulsion, why is there still sin? So let's mandate Sabbath observance. Or, What happened to it's not my time, it's God's? Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carolaa Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Originally Posted By: ichabod What I don't get is how passing a law seizing money from others to then give to the poor indicates compassion on my part. At what point do we determine that recipients have been taking welfare long enough... if they are 2nd generation.... third, fourth? Should there be any incentive to get recipients back to work? If so, what? If they refuse, what should the consequence be? Is this really a big problem? I don't personally know too many families who have been on welfare for generations. Most of the poor people I know are working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 26, 2009 Share Posted February 26, 2009 Quote: And what happened to 'it's not my money, it's God's'? God only gets 10% ... the rest is mine. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 First, Bravus, I was afraid you would avoid the questions. Second, In America (yeah, we're nuts), conservatives donate more money to charities than liberals do. This, after the gov't takes what they want. I wonder what spin you'll put on that? Third, Sure, it's God's money (and time and all the other blessings I receive). I am the steward of his blessings to me. The bigger point is... It's NOT the gov't's money!! God requires 10% and holds the church responsible for the proper spending of the tithe (but that's a whole 'nuther subject). With an out-of-control gov't, they are taking WAY more than 10% and there is no responsibility. I HATE that my taxes are going for gov't funded abortions. I have no power to stop that tragic mess. Don't worry, man. You are my brother and I hope you never think that I am over the edge on these topics. I find them fun, stimulating and challenging. It's good that we defend our beliefs as it helps to cement or change our core values. Due to our discussions on these topics, I am now more solid on my conservative stance and I thank you for helping me get there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Quote: I don't personally know too many families who have been on welfare for generations. Most of the poor people I know are working. Welfare killed my wife's brother. Her mother was on it for many years. Another brother has lived on it his whole life, and his children, now grown, are on it. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 I'm sorry to hear of that, Ichabod. Would you mind explaining the wife's brother thing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 When we moved nearby in 1981, he was complaining that "Reagan was going to cut all the programs, and he would be hurting." I asked him what he would do, and he reeled off the names of four or five other government programs he would be 'driven to' because of his disability. I asked him what his disability was and he said, "Emotional disability." PUzzled, I asked what an "emotional disability" was. He said, "I can't get along with my boss." Through the years that followed, his inactivity was continually subsidized by government. He had one son, who was arrested as juvenile for molesting little girls. The son would turn up at his father's house just in time for the SS payment, which he then took, and left his father on a street downtown. We would get the call to pick him up, take him to his apt. Well, after the third time this happened, the landlady evicted him. He wanted to come live with us. We said, fine. You can live in our house and we will provide meals, etc. But when your check comes, we will take it, pay your bills, give you an allowance. And your son is not welcome in our home (we had two young daughters), and will not get your money. Oh, and we keep the Sabbath. Nope, can't do that. Somehow he managed to get moved to another state north, installed in a project there, on welfare there. He never had to work, gained a lot of weight, did not take care of himself, drank quite a bit, smoked. Diabetes followed by kidney failure followed. Then he got dialysis. Eventually, the state paid for a kidney transplant. A couple of years later, he died. For the last twenty years of his life, he never had to lift a finger, never had to face his problems, never had to act responsibly. My wife--and her one responsible brother, a lifelong Democrat, both agree. Welfare killed their oldest brother, and contributed to the corruption of his son. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 That's why I had asked some of the questions in an earlier post. Where does gov't draw the line? Ich, you established boundaries (the right thing to do) and he apparently decided to go down a smoother path... to a tragic end. Attaining success in life (however one defines it) takes effort and lots of it. Our society rewards those not making much effort. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Here's what one astute observer said: Quote: Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. . . . Trade and commerce, if they were not made of India-rubber, would never manage to bounce over the obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and, if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievous persons who put obstructions on the railroads. guess who said it. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 Sorry to hear that ichabod. I guess no matter what there is out there, people take advantage of anything. We had a girl friend of my daughters stay with us a number of years ago. Her parents had kick he out because she got pregnant. So we took her in. We made her eat three proper meals a day. For supper we made her and my daughter, alternating each day, prepare the meals. We than taught her to drive, so she could get her drivers license, also her GED. We also told her she needed to get a job. She got a job working at a CVS. She lived with us for awhile. After she got on her own 2 feet. She finally got her own place with her boyfriend, who she eventually got rid of. We haven't heard her seen her in quite some time now. But the last I heard she was still working and doing well. She got on welfare because that's what she saw her mom do. We showed her that if you are an able bodied person there is no reason to be on welfare. We were very proud of her. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Success! I think the personal touch has such an impact. I can't see how a rep. of Big Brother would have cared like you did, pk. It would be a much greater scenario if that were done across our land (and it actually is to a greater extant than I would know) if more folks would help a person step up, instead of just providing money and impersonal bureaucratic programs. It fosters a sense of belonging and a sense of beholding to the sponsor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted February 27, 2009 Members Share Posted February 27, 2009 The welfare system diffinitely needs an overhaul. pk Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Key Guy Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Obama is proposing a rollback to the pre-'96 days, before the Welfare Reform Act signed by Clinton. It's not going to improve any time soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
there buster Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Quote: I think the personal touch has such an impact. I can't see how a rep. of Big Brother would have cared like you did, pk. \ Yes, pkrause. We have been involved in similar situations. Taking groceries to single mothers. Helping disabled people with errands and other things. Quote “the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Woody Posted February 27, 2009 Share Posted February 27, 2009 Hey Ichabod ... That is SO cool. Quote May we be one so that the world may be won. Christian from the cradle to the grave I believe in Hematology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted February 27, 2009 Moderators Share Posted February 27, 2009 Quote: compassion for the poor Compassion is a great and necessary thing. What I don't get is how passing a law seizing money from others to then give to the poor indicates compassion on my part. The task of Christians is persuasion, not compulsion. If Christians are not doing what they are supposed to be doing, then what is the government to do? Let people starve? Where does the gov't obtain its revenue for roads, education, health care, other services, and to feed those that can't take care of themselves? It is in the best interest of everyone if a nation sees to it that its citizens are educated, healthy, and well fed. Poverty, ignorance, hunger, and ill-health breed malcontents and revolutionaries. Is that what you want? Seizing money from others to give to the poor? Who creates the environment that makes it possible for the rich to strike it rich? Don't you think such a privilege does not carry with it some responsibility? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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