Alternative Proposals on the Economy

[Woody]

The Church should be feeding and clothing the poor.

[Gerr]

Who decides how much to take from you?

Who decides whether you can drive or not? Whether you can vote or not? Who decides how much you are charged when you buy anything? If you can't decide these things, why then do you begrudge gov't telling you how much to tax you? Or is it every man for himself now?

[Gerr]

Quote:

I don't personally know too many families who have been on welfare for generations. Most of the poor people I know are working.

Welfare killed my wife's brother. Her mother was on it for many years. Another brother has lived on it his whole life, and his children, now grown, are on it.

There is no question that welfare needs to be reformed. But do away with it? Get real!

Yes, able-bodied people who can but who are unwilling to work should not be on it!

[there buster]

Quote:

It is in the best interest of everyone if a nation sees to it that its citizens are educated, healthy, and well fed.

The question is whether government can actually do that, and should it do that?

Quote:

Yet this government never of itself furthered any enterprise, but by the alacrity with which it got out of its way. It does not keep the country free. It does not settle the West. It does not educate. The character inherent in the American people has done all that has been accomplished; and it would have done somewhat more, if the government had not sometimes got in its way. . . . Trade and commerce, if they were not made of India-rubber, would never manage to bounce over the obstacles which legislators are continually putting in their way; and, if one were to judge these men wholly by the effects of their actions and not partly by their intentions, they would deserve to be classed and punished with those mischievous persons who put obstructions on the railroads.

Just as one example, there were no "public schools" as we know them, in the US, before 1848. Yet we know the literacy rate in Massachusetts was higher before that than after. In higher education, where government regulation is the least in this country, is where education is the best.

If we divide the amount of money spent on poverty by the official number of those in poverty, it would raise them all above the poverty line. So money spent on 'poverty' is not spent on poverty. It's spent on college-educated administrators and case workers.

[Gail]

I have thought about that, too. In the olden days, it WAS the church that did the humanitarian gestures. In this bad economy it's a great time for us all to pitch in. And many are!

Is there a way (I wonder) if in our society the idea could catch on that altruism is very rewarding even to ourselves. Making your name in your life and earning your retirement is one way, but how about if we could get the notion that helping others less fortunate is a goal more noble?

[Gail]

Quote:

The question is whether government can actually do that, and should it do that?

Good point.

[Woody]

I have thought about that, too. In the olden days, it WAS the church that did the humanitarian gestures. In this bad economy it's a great time for us all to pitch in. And many are!

Is there a way (I wonder) if in our society the idea could catch on that altruism is very rewarding even to ourselves. Making your name in your life and earning your retirement is one way, but how about if we could get the notion that helping others less fortunate is a goal more noble?

[Gerr]

Quote:

It is in the best interest of everyone if a nation sees to it that its citizens are educated, healthy, and well fed.

The question is whether government can actually do that, and should it do that?

That has been the ongoing debate between conservatives and liberals. I am a middle of the road in this regard. I believe there are legitimate areas where the gov't has to be involved in. Nobody seriously thinks that the roads and bridges should be the responsibility of churches or some private groups. I doubt that the literacy rate would be better off without public education. Too many people used their children as additional source of help especially in agriculture so that they were taken out of schools. And do you think we could defend the country and fight wars as well with every man for himself? There is strength in unity, my friend.

[Woody]

Volunteers can do much. I used to volunteer at a literacy center. I would teach displaced adult workers how to read and how to apply for work. They had no idea how to make a resume. Of course when you can't read ... you can't access the internet etc.

[Key Guy]

I doubt that the literacy rate would be better off without public education.

I assume you're not putting home or private schooling in this mix because those kids outshine public school-educated kids all day long.

BTW, remember the old one-room schools? How did they work so well in providing a better education than we see going on now?

I know the answers, but would like others to respond.

[Gerr]

I am fully aware of the fact that home-schooled kids do better in standardized tests. I am talking about

education in general, all private vs. no public education. How many parents are equipped to homeschool their

children? Yeah, I was in a 2-grade school room the first 4 grades of my schooling.

[Gerr]

If you're retired, well and good. How is a fully employed person going to spend much time volunteering?

[carolaa]

[remember the old one-room schools? How did they work so well in providing a better education than we see going on now?

I know the answers, but would like others to respond.

I know, I know. It's because they were allowed to spank the kids and have organized prayer. Yeah, that's it. TU

[phkrause]

I have to agree with you Redwood. I do believe that there are alot of churches doing this already. I don't believe that there are enough churches to help. There to many people needing help.

pk

[Liz]

BTW, remember the old one-room schools? How did they work so well in providing a better education than we see going on now?

I know the answers, but would like others to respond.

Because when our grandparents went to school, they didn't know if they would get to go back the next day--due to working on the farm, or household duties or whatever. So each day that that they got to go (and this is the way they looked at it--they "got" to go--it was a priviledge not a right), they learned all they could. And when they no longer got to go, they didn't stop trying to learn.

They also didn't expect the government to bail them out. If is was a tough winter, and they didn't bring in a good enough crop--they either ate their animals or they starved. If they were lucky enough to survive the winter, they immediately got to work in their fields and planned for the next winter. They also kept tabs on their neighbors, they knew who was in need and who was doing alright. My grandparents would always slaughter an extra hog (nope they weren't SDA), and figure out how to give it the "needy" family without it looking like charity.

I know this from the stories my grandmother would tell me--she only had a third grade education.

Nowadays, going to school is a right, no longer a priviledge. They teach to the test, and they have stopped teaching kids how to think for themselves. They simply are to regurgitate everything that the teacher says. There is no urgency to learn all you can, they know it will be there tomorrow.

Our grandparents made it through the depression. We are all freaking out over the economy because we don't know how to survive anymore. And sadly, at least for me anyways, my grandparents are gone and I can no longer go to them for their great wisdom.

Just my opinion.

Oh and I have no idea what the "townfolk" did as to winter's and education, as all my people were farmers and ranchers.

[there buster]

Quote:

I doubt that the literacy rate would be better off without public education. Too many people used their children as additional source of help especially in agriculture so that they were taken out of schools.

The historical record shows otherwise.

Quote:

And do you think we could defend the country and fight wars as well with every man for himself? There is strength in unity, my friend.

False dichotomy.

[olger]

Thanks for the story, Ed. I had a brother-in-law just like that, except for no children. He drank himself into yet another stupor one night (with his welfare money) and walked home and sat down in the middle of the road at 3 am and was struck and killed by a fellow on his way to milk cows.

[there buster]

Quote:

[remember the old one-room schools? How did they work so well in providing a better education than we see going on now?

Because then, as now, the home is the primary source of education. The Northwest Ordinance set aside one section in every township (6x6 miles) for schools. Thirty years ago, many of those old buildings were still around here in Iowa.

Families lived close to the schools. Schools reflected their values, not something imposed from far away. Children went to school only during the winter months, they were needed for planting and harvest.

Children learned to work at home, and those qualities of diligence and thoroughness carried through in their school life. Even at school, they often had to cut wood for the potbellied stove, fetch water, and the like.

Schools have assumed more and more time, authority, and responsibility, and families have relinquished it. Now we have children "raised by the village," who return the favor and "raze the village."

[Bravus]

Or, families have demanded that schools take their kids for longer so they can work longer.

(of course the truth lies somewhere between)

[olger]

Answer one question for me: if Christians and others will give without compulsion, why is there still poverty? Is there a society anywhere in the world, anywhere in history, where poverty is alleviated by personal philanthropy? Or is the universal pattern, even in 'Christian nations' and even within Christian church communities, that the rich get more comfortable while the poor get into even more desparate situations? Is there anyone poor in your church? Why?

And what happened to 'it's not my money, it's God's'?

The best thing we can do for the poor is to not become one.

olger out

[Gerr]

Quote:

I doubt that the literacy rate would be better off without public education. Too many people used their children as additional source of help especially in agriculture so that they were taken out of schools.

The historical record shows otherwise.

I'd like to see that evidence. Without free education, I know that millions would/could not afford to go to school.

Although it was not welfare, without help I would not have been able to finish graduate school. Yes, I did pay it all back with interest. But the point is, I received help. And that is what welfare is suppose to provide - help. Unfortunately, like any good thing, some turn it into a curse by making it as a way of life.

Quote:

And do you think we could defend the country and fight wars as well with every man for himself? There is strength in unity, my friend.

False dichotomy.

Why?

[Key Guy]

Quote:

[remember the old one-room schools? How did they work so well in providing a better education than we see going on now?

Because then, as now, the home is the primary source of education. The Northwest Ordinance set aside one section in every township (6x6 miles) for schools. Thirty years ago, many of those old buildings were still around here in Iowa.

Families lived close to the schools. Schools reflected their values, not something imposed from far away. Children went to school only during the winter months, they were needed for planting and harvest.

Children learned to work at home, and those qualities of diligence and thoroughness carried through in their school life. Even at school, they often had to cut wood for the potbellied stove, fetch water, and the like.

Schools have assumed more and more time, authority, and responsibility, and families have relinquished it. Now we have children "raised by the village," who return the favor and "raze the village."

Gold Stars Ich... you nailed it

[Gerr]

Quote:

And what happened to 'it's not my money, it's God's'?

The best thing we can do for the poor is to not become one.

olger out

Ponder this Olger:

Whoever closes his ear to the cry of the poor

will himself call out and not be answered.

The Holy Bible : English Standard Version. Wheaton : Standard Bible Society, 2001, S. Pr 21:13

[Gerr]

Are we to understand that this private and home schooling will go on through high school, college, and graduate school? If not, not?

[there buster]

Quote:

Are we to understand that this private and home schooling will go on through high school,

Private schools go from k-grad school now. Homeschool goes from birth through high school now.